Median Penn Bid List Critique

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Veyron
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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Veyron » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Veyron wrote:Skadden has been known to take slightly above median people from Penn. They have a huge class. Not sure why you wouldn't bid them. Guy who said not to has no idea what he's talking about.


Any particular office? NYC I'm guessing is my best bet?


Yep.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:22 am

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:And where would you suggest I rank the Philly firms? I'm thinking between 10 and 20, and then save my top 10 for NYC and other more competitive/desirable markets?


I'd mix NY big class firms and good Philly firms 0 -15. You will get maybe half of your interviews from your top 15 (CPP told me, and I think previous year's literature states so, let me know if I am wrong, 3Ls). So maybe sure you cover both Philly and NYC.

Also, if you knew me who I am, I can give you some advice about Philly firms. PM/Email/FB me... (I can't PM you obviously).


I got about 3/4 of my top 20 but I didn't bid Philly.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:And what's the deal with Manko Gold? You'd think they at least be able to fill their slots haha. Do they pay complete crap or something? I haven't actually been able to find anything regarding their starting pay.


I'm the anon above who wrote about Manko Gold. I'm pretty sure they pay either $110 or $115. What I suspect happened last year is that everybody who wanted Philly threw a bid in somewhere for them, so they might have technically been overbid. But they came on the last day of OCI, and by then a lot of people had numerous CBs from the other Philly firms so just cancelled the screeners. I did my screener there anyway and didn't get a CB, although I got CBs from about 2/3 of the other Philly firms. I suspect they were looking for someone who seemed to really want environmental law or a boutique firm or something like that.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If it helps, I'm a 3L and I bid Saul somewhere around 12th last year and did not get an interview. I basically bid all the Philly firms as my top 15 or so, and got them all except Saul and Blank Rome. I ended up picking up Blank Rome too from add/drop. They only have 20 slots for Philly and Baltimore, so that's the main reason it's hard to get. Most of the other firms have at least 40 slots just for Philly.

I also agree with the poster who said you probably shouldn't bid other city offices of Dechert/ Morgan Lewis. You are pretty unlikely to get the other office, and it could hurt your chances at those two firms in Philly - which of course have two of the biggest summer classes in Philly and pay the top rate.

Also, don't waste a good bid on Manko Gold. People were giving those spots away like crazy last year. I think the screener guy ended up going home early because so many people cancelled their screeners and they couldn't get them filled.


Hmmmm, well I'm already interviewing with Morgan Lewis in SF and LA during regionals. If what you say is true, what would you recommend? I have a friend who got Morgan in SF last year without ties and the same grades I have, so that is giving me hope. If I got an offer in SF from them it would be hard to turn down. SF is probably tied with Philly for me right now as a desirable location. Most of my friends are in Philly and I love the city, but IMO San Francisco is the greatest city in the Western Hemisphere and I'd consider myself very lucky to live and work there.

I also plan on bidding Dechert London, which I guess I'll have to rethink.

Finally, based on how I ranked the Philly firms, do you think I'll get most of them? I bid most of the ones with a lot of slots between 10 and 20 thinking that I should still get them, so I could fit in some more competitive NYC and London bids in my top 10. Any firms you would suggest moving up or down? Maybe move up Blank Rome?


Well, if you feel so strongly about San Francisco, you should probably just do it. I assumed that median with no ties was a long shot for SF, but it's just an assumption. To be realistic, even if it hurts your chances at MLB Philly, if you have strong ties to the city and above median grades, you will certainly have other options in Philly. I guess with Dechert, you could even spin it if asked to say that you get 60 bids and there are only 15 Philly firms, so you'd be foolish not to use the other bids until you have an offer in hand - and that you especially like firms based in Philly since it might give you a chance to come home one day if they have a need in Philly at some point in the future.

Regarding your bid list, I would probably move Fox and Schnader up a bit if you would take those firms over a generic NYC biglaw firm (I suspect that your NYC bids from 16-22 are just safeties, and don't indicate a particular interest in the firm?) You will very likely get offers in Philly, which would relegate those NYC safeties to very little importance. It's better to have more options in Philly so you end up somewhere you like. The one thing that really surprised me was how many screeners were up for grabs during OCI last year. In the event you end up not getting CBs after the first couple days and get nervous, you should be able to load up on more screeners that are open. Move Dechert Philly up a little as well. I know they have a lot of slots, but I remember despite that, it was not a firm that people were giving away on add/drop, so you wouldn't want to miss it and not be able to interview there.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:18 am

I graduated from Penn last month and am working at a big Philly firm after the bar. I had a similar OCI strategy to you.

Here are some observations and tips:

Put Schander higher. They are pretty highly regarded and had a full slot. Unless you don't want lit.

Saul is still 110. But I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of that -- you are really trying to predict your salary in fall 2014, not next summer. A lot can change. Your firm could Dewey, or it could land some big new case or client and make it rain on the associates.

Drop other Morgan and Dechert offices except London. I think London is different enough to keep.

You will see the same 20-25 names on every Philly firm list, including a lot of transfers. But Dechert and Morgan seemed to get a few more NYC people even for their Philly office.

I don't see any Wilmington firms. Good. If you don't have Delaware ties, don't bother. Is CPP still telling Philly folks to bid on Wilmington?

If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.

Archer and Greiner doesn't seem to like Penn students and wants strong South Jersey ties. Consider putting them lower to get another NY slot.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby r6_philly » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I don't see any Wilmington firms. Good. If you don't have Delaware ties, don't bother. Is CPP still telling Philly folks to bid on Wilmington?



This is not true. People simply has no idea what it means to be in Delaware or practice in Delaware. It's pretty obvious to see that during interviews. I said in other threads to, having ties helps you explain your location choices in a believable kind of way, but you absolutely need no ties to convince someone if you do your homework and research properly.

Saul is still 110. But I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of that -- you are really trying to predict your salary in fall 2014, not next summer. A lot can change. Your firm could Dewey, or it could land some big new case or client and make it rain on the associates.


What kind of logic is that? The 130 firms may go 145, the 145 firms may go 160, the 160 firms may go 180 by 2014. The 110 is not an absolute indicator, it is a relative one. compare 110 to 130 and 145 and you know where it stands. Salary is derived from pricing, market position, and financial strength. In an economy where most top firms has maintained or returned to market salary yet Saul is still at 110 (remember it went 130 in 2007, with market), you can infer the strength of their practice currently.



If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.



What is this new format?

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby PennBull » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:57 pm

r6_philly wrote: You will get maybe half of your interviews from your top 15 (CPP told me, and I think previous year's literature states so, let me know if I am wrong, 3Ls).


Half? I thought the E(v) of the Top 10 alone was somewhere between 8 and 9.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby r6_philly » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:58 pm

PennBull wrote:
r6_philly wrote: You will get maybe half of your interviews from your top 15 (CPP told me, and I think previous year's literature states so, let me know if I am wrong, 3Ls).


Half? I thought the E(v) of the Top 10 alone was somewhere between 8 and 9.


Yes and most people get 15-25 spots, half of that is 8-12.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby PennBull » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:00 pm

r6_philly wrote:
PennBull wrote:
r6_philly wrote: You will get maybe half of your interviews from your top 15 (CPP told me, and I think previous year's literature states so, let me know if I am wrong, 3Ls).


Half? I thought the E(v) of the Top 10 alone was somewhere between 8 and 9.


Yes and most people get 15-25 spots, half of that is 8-12.


Oh nevermind; RC fail. I thought you meant of your top 15 bids, you only get half of them.

Carry on :)

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby PennBull » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:02 pm

-
Last edited by PennBull on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Wholigan » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:26 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.



What is this new format?


Probably referring to this. It's not really new; they did it last year as well.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... interviews

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:48 pm

I would move Dechert up I were you. They have fewer slots this year. Dechert, Duane Morris, Morgan Lewis, these are the Philly firms you are competitive for and should be targeting. Saul Ewing didn't hire anyone last year. I would not bid them. Also, Katten is too conservative of a bid given your grades. Move them down (and probably Kaye Scholer too).

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby r6_philly » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:56 pm

Wholigan wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.



What is this new format?


Probably referring to this. It's not really new; they did it last year as well.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... interviews


Ahh cool, didn't know that. I look forward to it.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:04 pm

r6_philly wrote:Ahh cool, didn't know that. I look forward to it.

I doubt many other firms are going to do that in the near term. But I would guess there will be an expansion in the use of behavioral questioning.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:16 pm

run26.2 wrote:Saul Ewing didn't hire anyone last year.


But Saul did hire 4 people from the class of 2012 in a class of 6-8 people.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:And what's the deal with Manko Gold? You'd think they at least be able to fill their slots haha. Do they pay complete crap or something? I haven't actually been able to find anything regarding their starting pay.


I'm the anon above who wrote about Manko Gold. I'm pretty sure they pay either $110 or $115. What I suspect happened last year is that everybody who wanted Philly threw a bid in somewhere for them, so they might have technically been overbid. But they came on the last day of OCI, and by then a lot of people had numerous CBs from the other Philly firms so just cancelled the screeners. I did my screener there anyway and didn't get a CB, although I got CBs from about 2/3 of the other Philly firms. I suspect they were looking for someone who seemed to really want environmental law or a boutique firm or something like that.


Hmmm, well I really am interested in Environmental Law which is one of the reasons I bid them even though it would mean working in da burbs somewhat. I might as well put them towards the end at least though, no? Can never hurt to have another interview from the bottom of the bid list.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If it helps, I'm a 3L and I bid Saul somewhere around 12th last year and did not get an interview. I basically bid all the Philly firms as my top 15 or so, and got them all except Saul and Blank Rome. I ended up picking up Blank Rome too from add/drop. They only have 20 slots for Philly and Baltimore, so that's the main reason it's hard to get. Most of the other firms have at least 40 slots just for Philly.

I also agree with the poster who said you probably shouldn't bid other city offices of Dechert/ Morgan Lewis. You are pretty unlikely to get the other office, and it could hurt your chances at those two firms in Philly - which of course have two of the biggest summer classes in Philly and pay the top rate.

Also, don't waste a good bid on Manko Gold. People were giving those spots away like crazy last year. I think the screener guy ended up going home early because so many people cancelled their screeners and they couldn't get them filled.


Hmmmm, well I'm already interviewing with Morgan Lewis in SF and LA during regionals. If what you say is true, what would you recommend? I have a friend who got Morgan in SF last year without ties and the same grades I have, so that is giving me hope. If I got an offer in SF from them it would be hard to turn down. SF is probably tied with Philly for me right now as a desirable location. Most of my friends are in Philly and I love the city, but IMO San Francisco is the greatest city in the Western Hemisphere and I'd consider myself very lucky to live and work there.

I also plan on bidding Dechert London, which I guess I'll have to rethink.

Finally, based on how I ranked the Philly firms, do you think I'll get most of them? I bid most of the ones with a lot of slots between 10 and 20 thinking that I should still get them, so I could fit in some more competitive NYC and London bids in my top 10. Any firms you would suggest moving up or down? Maybe move up Blank Rome?


Well, if you feel so strongly about San Francisco, you should probably just do it. I assumed that median with no ties was a long shot for SF, but it's just an assumption. To be realistic, even if it hurts your chances at MLB Philly, if you have strong ties to the city and above median grades, you will certainly have other options in Philly. I guess with Dechert, you could even spin it if asked to say that you get 60 bids and there are only 15 Philly firms, so you'd be foolish not to use the other bids until you have an offer in hand - and that you especially like firms based in Philly since it might give you a chance to come home one day if they have a need in Philly at some point in the future.

Regarding your bid list, I would probably move Fox and Schnader up a bit if you would take those firms over a generic NYC biglaw firm (I suspect that your NYC bids from 16-22 are just safeties, and don't indicate a particular interest in the firm?) You will very likely get offers in Philly, which would relegate those NYC safeties to very little importance. It's better to have more options in Philly so you end up somewhere you like. The one thing that really surprised me was how many screeners were up for grabs during OCI last year. In the event you end up not getting CBs after the first couple days and get nervous, you should be able to load up on more screeners that are open. Move Dechert Philly up a little as well. I know they have a lot of slots, but I remember despite that, it was not a firm that people were giving away on add/drop, so you wouldn't want to miss it and not be able to interview there.


Thanks for the advice! Good point on how to spin Dechert.

I have Schnader and Fox so low because their class sizes are so small and I've actually had some trouble finding any other useful on Schnader in case anyone else wants to chime in on them. I see the expect to expand their class this year, though.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I graduated from Penn last month and am working at a big Philly firm after the bar. I had a similar OCI strategy to you.

Here are some observations and tips:

Put Schander higher. They are pretty highly regarded and had a full slot. Unless you don't want lit.

Saul is still 110. But I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of that -- you are really trying to predict your salary in fall 2014, not next summer. A lot can change. Your firm could Dewey, or it could land some big new case or client and make it rain on the associates.

Drop other Morgan and Dechert offices except London. I think London is different enough to keep.

You will see the same 20-25 names on every Philly firm list, including a lot of transfers. But Dechert and Morgan seemed to get a few more NYC people even for their Philly office.

I don't see any Wilmington firms. Good. If you don't have Delaware ties, don't bother. Is CPP still telling Philly folks to bid on Wilmington?

If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.

Archer and Greiner doesn't seem to like Penn students and wants strong South Jersey ties. Consider putting them lower to get another NY slot.


Thanks for the advice! And any reason why Schnader is so highly regarded?

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:04 pm

Wholigan wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:

If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.



What is this new format?


Probably referring to this. It's not really new; they did it last year as well.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... interviews


Hmmmm, interesting. Anyone on here go through this and have any input?

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:05 pm

run26.2 wrote:I would move Dechert up I were you. They have fewer slots this year. Dechert, Duane Morris, Morgan Lewis, these are the Philly firms you are competitive for and should be targeting. Saul Ewing didn't hire anyone last year. I would not bid them. Also, Katten is too conservative of a bid given your grades. Move them down (and probably Kaye Scholer too).


Yeah, I was thinking that about Katten, but they seem like the "ultimate" safety and the firm actually interests me somewhat.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:09 pm

run26.2 wrote:I would move Dechert up I were you. They have fewer slots this year. Dechert, Duane Morris, Morgan Lewis, these are the Philly firms you are competitive for and should be targeting. Saul Ewing didn't hire anyone last year. I would not bid them. Also, Katten is too conservative of a bid given your grades. Move them down (and probably Kaye Scholer too).


Really? They still have 80 for Philly this year.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I graduated from Penn last month and am working at a big Philly firm after the bar. I had a similar OCI strategy to you.

Here are some observations and tips:

Put Schander higher. They are pretty highly regarded and had a full slot. Unless you don't want lit.

Saul is still 110. But I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of that -- you are really trying to predict your salary in fall 2014, not next summer. A lot can change. Your firm could Dewey, or it could land some big new case or client and make it rain on the associates.

Drop other Morgan and Dechert offices except London. I think London is different enough to keep.

You will see the same 20-25 names on every Philly firm list, including a lot of transfers. But Dechert and Morgan seemed to get a few more NYC people even for their Philly office.

I don't see any Wilmington firms. Good. If you don't have Delaware ties, don't bother. Is CPP still telling Philly folks to bid on Wilmington?

If there's anything that can move down its Pepper. 80 slots non-NY! Also be aware of their new interview format.

Archer and Greiner doesn't seem to like Penn students and wants strong South Jersey ties. Consider putting them lower to get another NY slot.


Thanks for the advice! And any reason why Schnader is so highly regarded?


Poster you're quoting here. I think they are highly regarded because they are a go-to trial firm. If you want lit and insight into the trial process they are one of the best. If you are not sure what you want, look for a firm that is more flexible/diversified.

I'd be happy to help you or anyone else with any Philly market questions. Anything that takes me away from bar study :P

Are Conrad O'brien and Kline and specter interviewing this year? If so I wouldn't bother. They rarely actually hire someone.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'd be happy to help you or anyone else with any Philly market questions. Anything that takes me away from bar study :P

Out of curiosity what about Duane Morris?

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'd be happy to help you or anyone else with any Philly market questions. Anything that takes me away from bar study :P

Out of curiosity what about Duane Morris?


I see them as kind of a black box. They are huge, they pay well, yet you don't hear about them as much in the news or the legal intelligencer (which the Penn library has a subscription to btw) and they're not in a trophy building (which is meaningless but you know what I mean). They just kind of hum along making it rain. I also hear they are more reasonable in terms of hours and have fewer anal/pretentious people but some people bordering on awkward.

I hear that their summer class is primarily t10 people, including some HY representation. They definitely seemed to place a lot of emphasis on grades/LR. (I think Dechert and Morgan are also big on grades). My year Duane only gave offers to transfer students. Other Philly firms care more about fit than grades.

Bottom line: if you are choosing between offers at Dechert, Morgan and Duane, want the cash but also want to see the sun every once in a while, take Duane. If you want to move into government or another market take Morgan or Dechert where the name will carry better.

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Re: Median Penn Bid List Critique

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
run26.2 wrote:Saul Ewing didn't hire anyone last year.


But Saul did hire 4 people from the class of 2012 in a class of 6-8 people.

I would not use my #1 bid on this firm because 1) your grades are good enough that they should really be a safety, and 2) last years' data is more valuable than c/o 2012. I think you should use your #1 for a firm that you would really like to be at and that is also probably pretty competitive. If that firm is Saul Ewing for you, then keep it as your #1.




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