Just finished 1L year- Too early??

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Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:29 am

So I have a professor from undergrad that I got fairly close to who is a partner, runs a group, and handles a good bit of hiring at a law firm I'd like to work at. I just finished my 1L year. He has told me previously that they don't use many summer associates, and just hire after 3L. Is it too early to reach out to him about a job for when I graduate?

I'm thinking about taking a non-traditional approach to this. I'm going to try to "sell" him that now would be a good time to hire me for 2 years from now. I'm going to say that his group is growing, could really use an associate in a couple of years. And the beauty of hiring me now is that he would be able to have input in to classes I take for the remainder of law school. A way to "mold" an associate, so to speak, to get knowledge in things the group could use for revenue generation.

Thoughts?

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fatduck
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby fatduck » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm thinking about taking a non-traditional approach to this. I'm going to try to "sell" him that now would be a good time to hire me for 2 years from now. I'm going to say that his group is growing, could really use an associate in a couple of years. And the beauty of hiring me now is that he would be able to have input in to classes I take for the remainder of law school. A way to "mold" an associate, so to speak, to get knowledge in things the group could use for revenue generation.

Thoughts?

this sounds super creepy. also who cares what classes you take in law school. just ask him for job search advice, or if he knows anyone who might be hiring in the region/field you're interested in.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:37 am

fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm thinking about taking a non-traditional approach to this. I'm going to try to "sell" him that now would be a good time to hire me for 2 years from now. I'm going to say that his group is growing, could really use an associate in a couple of years. And the beauty of hiring me now is that he would be able to have input in to classes I take for the remainder of law school. A way to "mold" an associate, so to speak, to get knowledge in things the group could use for revenue generation.

Thoughts?

this sounds super creepy. also who cares what classes you take in law school. just ask him for job search advice, or if he knows anyone who might be hiring in the region/field you're interested in.


I've already done this. And we've discussed employment before.

And he cares. He is in charge of a very specific group. He could use someone who can handle niche things like Immigration issues or Land Use issues. This is why I'm thinking about approaching it this way

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IAFG
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:39 am

If you want to ask him for course planning advice, it's a great way to keep your connection with him fresh. But don't even try to make that conversation contingent on a hiring decision that he already told you he doesn't make at this stage.

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fatduck
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby fatduck » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:40 am

IAFG wrote:If you want to ask him for course planning advice, it's a great way to keep your connection with him fresh. But don't even try to make that conversation contingent on a hiring decision that he already told you he doesn't make at this stage.

yea, this is legit. just don't ever say the word "mold", ever.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:42 am

IAFG wrote:If you want to ask him for course planning advice, it's a great way to keep your connection with him fresh. But don't even try to make that conversation contingent on a hiring decision that he already told you he doesn't make at this stage.


Well he didn't actually say that. He just told me the firm doesn't waste money on summer associates. They just hire for after graduation. The point is that I don't want to risk holding out for that firm, so I'd like to get it secure if they'd be interested in me. Because if not I'd obviously pursue summer associate opportunities elsewhere for next summer.

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kwais
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby kwais » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:45 am

these don't sound mutually exclusive. he doesn't do SA's, so go get an SA and then revisit it with his during your 3L year. what's so hard about that?

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:47 am

kwais wrote:these don't sound mutually exclusive. he doesn't do SA's, so go get an SA and then revisit it with his during your 3L year. what's so hard about that?


Because it would be reallllllllllly nice to have a full-time lined up this early :)

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IAFG
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you want to ask him for course planning advice, it's a great way to keep your connection with him fresh. But don't even try to make that conversation contingent on a hiring decision that he already told you he doesn't make at this stage.


Well he didn't actually say that. He just told me the firm doesn't waste money on summer associates. They just hire for after graduation. The point is that I don't want to risk holding out for that firm, so I'd like to get it secure if they'd be interested in me. Because if not I'd obviously pursue summer associate opportunities elsewhere for next summer.

If they hire later, they're already in the business of poaching other firm's summers. You're creating a dichotomy where there is none. It's not the case that an SA forecloses on you working here. Go get an SA, and if you would rather still work at this firm, apply when they take apps. And what do you mean by "get secure" anyway? Even an SA doesn't guarantee a job. This guy agreeing to probably hire you later means even less.

If they wanted to groom associates two years out, they know how to do that.

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rayiner
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby rayiner » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:57 am

Not too early, just too creepy.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:59 am

rayiner wrote:Not too early, just too creepy.


I can't figure out why this is creepy..........What is creepy about saying "hey, hire me now and you can do things to make sure I have EXACTLY the skills you need to make money from me in 2 years?"

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby akili » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:Not too early, just too creepy.


I can't figure out why this is creepy..........What is creepy about saying "hey, hire me now and you can do things to make sure I have EXACTLY the skills you need to make money from me in 2 years?"


Yeah, that's pretty creepy.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Wellsfargowagon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I can't figure out why this is creepy..........What is creepy about saying "hey, hire me now and you can do things to make sure I have EXACTLY the skills you need to make money from me in 2 years?"


This presupposes that law school--and subject classes like "Immigration Law" and "Land Use Law" specifically--imparts "skills."

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Wellsfargowagon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I can't figure out why this is creepy..........What is creepy about saying "hey, hire me now and you can do things to make sure I have EXACTLY the skills you need to make money from me in 2 years?"


This presupposes that law school--and subject classes like "Immigration Law" and "Land Use Law" specifically--imparts "skills."


It is when they need an immigration and land use expert, no? Take 3 classes a piece for the rest of the next 2 years and you probably know more than 90% of people.

Also, just saying "yeah, that's creepy" doesn't tell me WHY. I don't want to be creepy, but WHY is it creepy?

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kwais
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby kwais » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
kwais wrote:these don't sound mutually exclusive. he doesn't do SA's, so go get an SA and then revisit it with his during your 3L year. what's so hard about that?


Because it would be reallllllllllly nice to have a full-time lined up this early :)


by this logic, it's not creepy for me to stalk Natalie Portman because she is reallllllly hot, right?

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:Not too early, just too creepy.


I can't figure out why this is creepy..........What is creepy about saying "hey, hire me now and you can do things to make sure I have EXACTLY the skills you need to make money from me in 2 years?"

If he were interested in a specialized skill set, he would just poach a junior from somewhere else. A junior who presumably cultivated a specialty based on a sincere interest in the practice area, and has actual experience, rather than some dude who took a couple classes at his direction. I think you overestimate how much lawyers value classroom instruction.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:10 pm

kwais wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
kwais wrote:these don't sound mutually exclusive. he doesn't do SA's, so go get an SA and then revisit it with his during your 3L year. what's so hard about that?


Because it would be reallllllllllly nice to have a full-time lined up this early :)


by this logic, it's not creepy for me to stalk Natalie Portman because she is reallllllly hot, right?


What is "stalkerish" and creepy about shooting straight and acknowledging reality? I need a job. They want to make a ton of money off their investment in an associate. Mutual benefit is hire me now and you dictate the next 2 years of my academic life in a way that you believe will enable you to turn the biggest profit off of me.

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IAFG
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:17 pm

You sound desperate. Is there a reason you feel desperate? Bad grades from a bad school? Have you asked him about similar firms that he knows of that actually have an interest in hiring you two years out (e.g. firms who take summers or term clerks)?

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:18 pm

IAFG wrote:You sound desperate. Is there a reason you feel desperate? Bad grades from a bad school? Have you asked him about similar firms that he knows of that actually have an interest in hiring you two years out (e.g. firms who take summers or term clerks)?


Just really like the firm. And this guy runs a group with a VERY rare specialty to find, which is related to something I've been dreaming of working in since I was 9 years old. That's why I sound desperate.

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IAFG
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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:You sound desperate. Is there a reason you feel desperate? Bad grades from a bad school? Have you asked him about similar firms that he knows of that actually have an interest in hiring you two years out (e.g. firms who take summers or term clerks)?


Just really like the firm. And this guy runs a group with a VERY rare specialty to find, which is related to something I've been dreaming of working in since I was 9 years old. That's why I sound desperate.

Okay. Well coming off as desperate never helped anyone. There are better ways to put yourself in line for this firm than trying to auction off the rights to your curriculum planning.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:22 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:You sound desperate. Is there a reason you feel desperate? Bad grades from a bad school? Have you asked him about similar firms that he knows of that actually have an interest in hiring you two years out (e.g. firms who take summers or term clerks)?


Just really like the firm. And this guy runs a group with a VERY rare specialty to find, which is related to something I've been dreaming of working in since I was 9 years old. That's why I sound desperate.

Okay. Well coming off as desperate never helped anyone. There are better ways to put yourself in line for this firm than trying to auction off the rights to your curriculum planning.


Fair enough. Thanks for your advice. And believe me, I really don't wanna sound creepy/desperate.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby abc12345675 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:27 pm

I don't think it's too early. Write him a nice letter explaining why you are interested in his firm etc. But don't turn into a salesman.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:31 pm

It's rude because you are a law student telling a dude how to run his business. It is creepy because your forcing this mentor/protege relationship like you want to fuck this dude.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby piccolittle » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:02 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:You sound desperate. Is there a reason you feel desperate? Bad grades from a bad school? Have you asked him about similar firms that he knows of that actually have an interest in hiring you two years out (e.g. firms who take summers or term clerks)?


Just really like the firm. And this guy runs a group with a VERY rare specialty to find, which is related to something I've been dreaming of working in since I was 9 years old. That's why I sound desperate.

Okay. Well coming off as desperate never helped anyone. There are better ways to put yourself in line for this firm than trying to auction off the rights to your curriculum planning.

It's not too creepy to solicit his advice on things like course planning and your SA search if you really want to get into his niche practice area. You can make clear how interested you are, and knowing that he is so familiar with the area, ask about courses and any other firms he might know of that you can pursue SAs at. It has multiple benefits: you confirm your serious interest in his practice area, by soliciting his advice you show him that you respect and value his opinion and look up to him (he feels special), and by observing (and helping with) your summer job search he gets a sense of your desirableness as a candidate. There may come a time down the road when he wants to poach you away from one of the firms he recommended, or he will eventually realize how much he actually wants to make you an offer. Make him your mentor; if you want to actually go into his specialized area of practice, his guidance is the most valuable thing. You want to make yourself a great candidate not only for his firm, but for your entire career.

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Re: Just finished 1L year- Too early??

Postby Pokemon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:18 pm

OP, he was your professor in undergrad, treat him as a friend and as a source, not someone there merely to give you a job. That is if he has told you that they do not like for employees until the end of 3L, communicate with him, ask him for advice in law school and things of that sort, but do not sound as if you are communicating only because he can give you a job. So no molding, hire me now, three years from now, I will work for you stuff. Think about how you would communicate with an undergrad professor that could not offer you a job, and then communicate exactly the same way with him. That is my humble opinion.




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