Bidding on London

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Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:23 am

Anyone have any experience with this? There are some London firms/offices coming to our OCI (three Magic Circle firms and three U.S. firms with offices there) and I'd like to work there over NYC and DC (my other top markets). Just looking for any general advice from anyone who has either worked there or gone through the OCI process with London-based firms/offices. And how big are they are ties? I have a bit of an international background but no direct ties to London. However, I know a student a year in front of me who got an SA position with Linklaters there despite zero ties (not even having been there). Is it like NYC, ties-wise?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:49 am

Anyone?

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piccolittle
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Re: Bidding on London

Postby piccolittle » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:54 pm

I'm interested in this as well. Lived in the UK for 7 years, but wondering about the grades aspect of it. At my school, it looks as though the London offices are way more grades-selective than their NY offices (I mean, that makes sense for MC firms, but still). Also, anyone have any input on chances of getting an offer from summering in London? Are they more likely to want you to stay or shift you to an office where they have need?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby gulcregret » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Grades are not a concern for most magic circle firms, really. AO was the only one that seemed to care at all. Linklaters, CC, and Freshfields were all pretty much indifferent if you were from a school at which they recruited. It's all about demonstrating the interest in an international practice and in working/living abroad. Language skills will help. Mostly just talk about why you want to live in London, your experiences in London, etc.

In my experience, they had an issue with me having a young family and talking about NYC instead of London. One interviewer asked me straight up if I would be willing to live in London for a few years even though I was interviewing for the NYC office. I told her I would be interested but it probably came off an insincere. I got no offers despite three screenings and a CB. I was a little above median at Gtown at the time.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby sophie316 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:53 pm

At least when I went through OCI the most important aspects seemed to be having ties that indicated a real desire to live in London, not an "oh that would be a cool place to live for a year or two and I liked it when I did that summer program at Cambridge that one time in college" desire. Also, a serious and singular interest in practicing capital markets. DO NOT say you want to do litigation or arbitration, EVEN IF they have a large int arb practice. This was the kiss of death for most people. Also you should probably ACTUALLY want to do capital markets, basically exclusively, because thats all you would be doing in London as a US lawyer.

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piccolittle
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Re: Bidding on London

Postby piccolittle » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:06 pm

Is there any chance of transferring over into the English law practice once you've been there for a few years and taken the QLTT? Would it be bad to admit to an interest in doing that during an interview? It might seem like a shortcut into the true Magic Circle, which is what I'm concerned about.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby jbiresq » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:27 pm

Given the euromess and the state of the European/British economy is there a larger chance than in the States that you could get a position and get no offered or, worse, go there and get laid off pretty quickly? This post on ATL seemed to indicate that the American associates did not have too much work to do: http://abovethelaw.com/2012/01/letter-f ... n-britain/

As someone who has always wanted to live in London, and has a lot of ties/experience there, the chance to work there appeals to me a lot.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby sophie316 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:30 pm

piccolittle wrote:Is there any chance of transferring over into the English law practice once you've been there for a few years and taken the QLTT? Would it be bad to admit to an interest in doing that during an interview? It might seem like a shortcut into the true Magic Circle, which is what I'm concerned about.


I don't think they would just let you move over into UK practice. Yes you could take the QLT and cross qualify, but I think you'd probably have to reapply to the UK side, especially if you were trying to switch practice areas ie from corp to lit. If you would be going corp to corp it might be easier...I did part of my summer at a UK branch of US firm and did some work on UK offerings as well as US ones, so they do seem to cross staff these, at least at the US firms. Maybe less so magic circle because they are so much larger.

Either way, I fail to see why it would be a good idea to mention this in an interview...if they wanted a UK lawyer they would hire a UK lawyer.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby sophie316 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:32 pm

jbiresq wrote:Given the euromess and the state of the European/British economy is there a larger chance than in the States that you could get a position and get no offered or, worse, go there and get laid off pretty quickly? This post on ATL seemed to indicate that the American associates did not have too much work to do: http://abovethelaw.com/2012/01/letter-f ... n-britain/

As someone who has always wanted to live in London, and has a lot of ties/experience there, the chance to work there appeals to me a lot.


I have looked into this quite a lot, and the general consensus re: getting to London without putting yourself at a lot of risk is to go to the best NY firm you can, do capital markets for two years, and then apply. If you can go to a NY based firm with a London office, so much the better. But having two years + experience doing capital markets in NYC is the most valuable thing you can do.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:28 pm

sophie316 wrote:
jbiresq wrote:Given the euromess and the state of the European/British economy is there a larger chance than in the States that you could get a position and get no offered or, worse, go there and get laid off pretty quickly? This post on ATL seemed to indicate that the American associates did not have too much work to do: http://abovethelaw.com/2012/01/letter-f ... n-britain/

As someone who has always wanted to live in London, and has a lot of ties/experience there, the chance to work there appeals to me a lot.


I have looked into this quite a lot, and the general consensus re: getting to London without putting yourself at a lot of risk is to go to the best NY firm you can, do capital markets for two years, and then apply. If you can go to a NY based firm with a London office, so much the better. But having two years + experience doing capital markets in NYC is the most valuable thing you can do.


Hmmm, thanks for the info. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:32 pm

3L here, have gone through OCI and also bid all of the magic circle firms:

1. Grades DO matter, but if you're at a T14 but not a T6, if you are median to slightly below median or lower, at least from my experience and my peers experiences at my school (lower T14), you will be lucky to get a callback, even if you have incredibly strong ties to London, a real interest in capital markets (not just, oh I really want to do that, but either a demonstrated interest with some relevant experience, or the ability to speak fairly intelligently about capital markets from self-research and/or experience)

2. If you meet that grades threshold, like it was stated earlier, you better have some good ties to London. Think, lived there for a few years growing up, having a lot of family there, or possibly a degree from a UK institution (no, study abroad, even if a year long does not count, they know, and we all know everyone spends study abroad having a good time). You also need to express a willingness to be there long term and genuinely so. None of the, oh I would love to "start" my career there. "Start my career" implies, oh cool, I get to spend two, maybe three years in London, get some experience, and then try to lateral and come back to the US! That may be your plan, that's fine, but do NOT let that show. You want them thinking, this kid really loves London and can see himself or herself building a life and career there.

3. REALLY REALLY demonstrate an interest in capital markets, I cannot emphasize this enough

4. Come off as international, and no I don't mean something along the lines of, I have a non-American ethnicity and have traveled a bit. The students who, beyond London ties, also had lived in other parts of the world, whether growing up or having done some international internships, seemed to do well with magic circle firms. Showing a willingness to live in London long-term and also implying that you love living internationally will make them think both, he could be in London long-term but, while he's in London, and since we have so many practices and deals going on in different countries, this kid might be willing to be seconded off to an important client in Germany, or in China, etc, for 6 months, a year etc (this is where languages can also be huge, see reason 5).

5. LANGUAGES, holy SHIT do they value languages, especially less common languages. Face if, the majority of us law students grew up in the US, the majority took spanish in school and/or college, especially those from the west coast. However, speaking other languages in addition to spanish, i.e. fluency in 3+ languages, or, fluency in one very useful language, i.e. Mandarin, Arabic, Portuguese, or even other languages such as German/French, was a highly valued asset. This is the ONE thing I have seen that

6. Finally, the magic circle firms are whores for prestige, absolute whores for prestige, I have quite a bit of family there and friends in law school in the UK as well as knowing some young associates there, and they make US law firms' obsession with prestige look non-existent. If you go to a T6, i.e. an HYS, and a Columbia (sorry NYU/UChicago, the Brits just love those Ivy leagues and names that even lay people know world-wide, but dont' worry, they still love you guys in Chicago/NYU too), they are more willing to dip down in grades and forgive some other factors because they love saying their american summer associates in London are plucked from the very best schools and ivy league law schools. The above advice still applies and will be very helpful in getting a callback/offer, but it is more crucial for students from T7-14. If you're not in the T14, even with all of this, best of luck, it's going to be a huge obstacle to overcome bc the magic circle, as the exclusivity of that name would imply, are prestige whores.

Hope OP and the others interested in bidding London find this helpful!

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby jbiresq » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:3L here, have gone through OCI and also bid all of the magic circle firms:

1. Grades DO matter, but if you're at a T14 but not a T6, if you are median to slightly below median or lower, at least from my experience and my peers experiences at my school (lower T14), you will be lucky to get a callback, even if you have incredibly strong ties to London, a real interest in capital markets (not just, oh I really want to do that, but either a demonstrated interest with some relevant experience, or the ability to speak fairly intelligently about capital markets from self-research and/or experience)

2. If you meet that grades threshold, like it was stated earlier, you better have some good ties to London. Think, lived there for a few years growing up, having a lot of family there, or possibly a degree from a UK institution (no, study abroad, even if a year long does not count, they know, and we all know everyone spends study abroad having a good time). You also need to express a willingness to be there long term and genuinely so. None of the, oh I would love to "start" my career there. "Start my career" implies, oh cool, I get to spend two, maybe three years in London, get some experience, and then try to lateral and come back to the US! That may be your plan, that's fine, but do NOT let that show. You want them thinking, this kid really loves London and can see himself or herself building a life and career there.

3. REALLY REALLY demonstrate an interest in capital markets, I cannot emphasize this enough

4. Come off as international, and no I don't mean something along the lines of, I have a non-American ethnicity and have traveled a bit. The students who, beyond London ties, also had lived in other parts of the world, whether growing up or having done some international internships, seemed to do well with magic circle firms. Showing a willingness to live in London long-term and also implying that you love living internationally will make them think both, he could be in London long-term but, while he's in London, and since we have so many practices and deals going on in different countries, this kid might be willing to be seconded off to an important client in Germany, or in China, etc, for 6 months, a year etc (this is where languages can also be huge, see reason 5).

5. LANGUAGES, holy SHIT do they value languages, especially less common languages. Face if, the majority of us law students grew up in the US, the majority took spanish in school and/or college, especially those from the west coast. However, speaking other languages in addition to spanish, i.e. fluency in 3+ languages, or, fluency in one very useful language, i.e. Mandarin, Arabic, Portuguese, or even other languages such as German/French, was a highly valued asset. This is the ONE thing I have seen that

6. Finally, the magic circle firms are whores for prestige, absolute whores for prestige, I have quite a bit of family there and friends in law school in the UK as well as knowing some young associates there, and they make US law firms' obsession with prestige look non-existent. If you go to a T6, i.e. an HYS, and a Columbia (sorry NYU/UChicago, the Brits just love those Ivy leagues and names that even lay people know world-wide, but dont' worry, they still love you guys in Chicago/NYU too), they are more willing to dip down in grades and forgive some other factors because they love saying their american summer associates in London are plucked from the very best schools and ivy league law schools. The above advice still applies and will be very helpful in getting a callback/offer, but it is more crucial for students from T7-14. If you're not in the T14, even with all of this, best of luck, it's going to be a huge obstacle to overcome bc the magic circle, as the exclusivity of that name would imply, are prestige whores.

Hope OP and the others interested in bidding London find this helpful!


Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense. The one person I know who accepted an offer at a V5 in London was foreign-born, had an EU passport & spoke a Slavic languag. Also at Columbia.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Rory1987 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:17 am

tagged

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:30 am

This has been a very helpful thread. I just have 1 question: Is there a disadvantage to going to S over H for someone who hopes to work for a few years in London? I have spoken with European friends and they have said that HLS is held in much higher regard... But what difference does that make for someone there for the short term, who isn't trying to get their own clients or to become a partner?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby sophie316 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:This has been a very helpful thread. I just have 1 question: Is there a disadvantage to going to S over H for someone who hopes to work for a few years in London? I have spoken with European friends and they have said that HLS is held in much higher regard... But what difference does that make for someone there for the short term, who isn't trying to get their own clients or to become a partner?


I don't think it will make a huge difference in the short term. The people interviewing you know what the good schools are. And people in England know that Stanford is a good school. It's just that HARVARD is HARVARD. Generally outside of the US legal community, people are going to be impressed by Harvard then Standford/Yale then Princeton because they have no idea what other schools even have law schools. I went to Columbia undergrad and spend every summer I went home to London explaining that it was a school in New York, not the country. Got old. But professionally over there, it never held me back because anyone I actually wanted to hire me knew it was a good school.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby bendurnotes4me » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:43 am

Is London considered a good place to start your career the way NYC is? Everyone has said you need to start in NYC no matter what to get the best training. But is London considered the same?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:3L here, have gone through OCI and also bid all of the magic circle firms:

1. Grades DO matter, but if you're at a T14 but not a T6, if you are median to slightly below median or lower, at least from my experience and my peers experiences at my school (lower T14), you will be lucky to get a callback, even if you have incredibly strong ties to London, a real interest in capital markets (not just, oh I really want to do that, but either a demonstrated interest with some relevant experience, or the ability to speak fairly intelligently about capital markets from self-research and/or experience)

2. If you meet that grades threshold, like it was stated earlier, you better have some good ties to London. Think, lived there for a few years growing up, having a lot of family there, or possibly a degree from a UK institution (no, study abroad, even if a year long does not count, they know, and we all know everyone spends study abroad having a good time). You also need to express a willingness to be there long term and genuinely so. None of the, oh I would love to "start" my career there. "Start my career" implies, oh cool, I get to spend two, maybe three years in London, get some experience, and then try to lateral and come back to the US! That may be your plan, that's fine, but do NOT let that show. You want them thinking, this kid really loves London and can see himself or herself building a life and career there.

3. REALLY REALLY demonstrate an interest in capital markets, I cannot emphasize this enough

4. Come off as international, and no I don't mean something along the lines of, I have a non-American ethnicity and have traveled a bit. The students who, beyond London ties, also had lived in other parts of the world, whether growing up or having done some international internships, seemed to do well with magic circle firms. Showing a willingness to live in London long-term and also implying that you love living internationally will make them think both, he could be in London long-term but, while he's in London, and since we have so many practices and deals going on in different countries, this kid might be willing to be seconded off to an important client in Germany, or in China, etc, for 6 months, a year etc (this is where languages can also be huge, see reason 5).

5. LANGUAGES, holy SHIT do they value languages, especially less common languages. Face if, the majority of us law students grew up in the US, the majority took spanish in school and/or college, especially those from the west coast. However, speaking other languages in addition to spanish, i.e. fluency in 3+ languages, or, fluency in one very useful language, i.e. Mandarin, Arabic, Portuguese, or even other languages such as German/French, was a highly valued asset. This is the ONE thing I have seen that

6. Finally, the magic circle firms are whores for prestige, absolute whores for prestige, I have quite a bit of family there and friends in law school in the UK as well as knowing some young associates there, and they make US law firms' obsession with prestige look non-existent. If you go to a T6, i.e. an HYS, and a Columbia (sorry NYU/UChicago, the Brits just love those Ivy leagues and names that even lay people know world-wide, but dont' worry, they still love you guys in Chicago/NYU too), they are more willing to dip down in grades and forgive some other factors because they love saying their american summer associates in London are plucked from the very best schools and ivy league law schools. The above advice still applies and will be very helpful in getting a callback/offer, but it is more crucial for students from T7-14. If you're not in the T14, even with all of this, best of luck, it's going to be a huge obstacle to overcome bc the magic circle, as the exclusivity of that name would imply, are prestige whores.

Hope OP and the others interested in bidding London find this helpful!


For language fluency, is it just speaking or is writing/reading required also?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:25 am

Important question (pardon my ignorance, 0L interested in working in London here):

Do British firms pay market? --something like 100K pounds?

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FlanAl
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Re: Bidding on London

Postby FlanAl » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:35 am

Any advice on minor ties to london but strong ties to the UK (went to uni there for the 4 years(scotland), most of my friends live there etc.)
Thanks

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:13 am

Market (100k GBP) plus a COLA (normally another 25-40k GBP) on top of that. And NY Market bonuses. And 26 days vacation, and other amazing benefits.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Market (100k GBP) plus a COLA (normally another 25-40k GBP) on top of that. And NY Market bonuses. And 26 days vacation, and other amazing benefits.


Holy shit I'm gunning for this. It's my absolute favorite place in the world. Are taxes still so insane as to render that effectively the same/less than NYC?

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Taxes are about 40% of anything over 30k GBP. And you really won't have to pay any US taxes (although you'll have to file). But depending on how extravagantly you want to live, you're probably on par with NY, or maybe a little better off. Plus you get the amazing benefits.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote: Plus you get the amazing benefits.


Amazing benefits? Such as?

stabiloboss
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Re: Bidding on London

Postby stabiloboss » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:21 pm

can someone post a source of where it says 100k starting salary? I've done some research, and after 2 years of training, pay starts at 66k pounds.

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Re: Bidding on London

Postby piccolittle » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Plus you get the amazing benefits.


Amazing benefits? Such as?

UK employment laws are a lot better than ours. For example, 6 months' statutory maternity leave.




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