My recent graduate husband

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:00 pm

sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?


Small local firm 2L summer. I mentioned in the original post it didn't work out because they couldn't justify the hours to make an offer, but there are associates there (maybe even a junior partner?) who have offered to be references and he has started including them as references where appropriate when applying to things. It wasn't transactional, so it's not helping in that department specifically, and it wasn't biglaw so again not a huge help. But it was a positive enough experience and he has references from it. I'm not sure what the overall takeaway (helping/hurting) from that would be...?

OCI both years was just a lot of what he's experienced the whole time - a good handful of callbacks (not an amazing record as far as screeners : callbacks, I wouldn't think, but definitely not terrible) with no results. The 2L summer firm was something he got I believe from a mass mailing, not through OCI.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:01 pm

Thanks! Truly appreciative of how much everyone here is willing to offer help/advice. :)

attractive_NUisance wrote:Just got an email he might not have received. He could apply to this:

CLINICAL FELLOW POSITION AVAILABLE

Northwestern University School of Law

Bluhm Legal Clinic

Children and Family Justice Center



Northwestern University School of Law invites applications for a clinical fellow position beginning in mid-August 2012 in the Bluhm Legal Clinic’sChildren and Family Justice Center. The Fellow will represent youth in juvenile prison at their parole revocation hearings and participate in post dispositional policy reform and advocacy. Applicants should send letters of interest and resumes to Julie Biehl, Director, Children and Family Justice Center (j-biehl@law.northwestern.edu). The deadline for applications is July 16, 2012 and it is anticipated that the fellowship will begin in mid-August 2012 and end December 31, 2013. Salary and benefits will be competitive.





The Bluhm Legal Clinic currently includes clinical faculty teaching in its Children and Family Justice Center, The Center on Wrongful Convictions, The Center on International Human Rights, the Entrepreneurship Law Center, Roderick MacArthur Justice Center, the Environmental Law Clinic and other clinical programs that include appellate advocacy, criminal defense, civil litigation (predatory lending cases, civil suits arising from wrongful convictions, an landlord tenant cases), externship, negotiations and trial advocacy.



Northwestern University School of Law is an equal opportunity, affirmative action employer and encourages nominations of and applications from women and minority candidates.

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Kring345
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Kring345 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:04 pm

Just wanted to day that I'm glad to see you looking out for your husband and I'm equally glad to see people so willing to help. Lots of great, genuine advice, which is rate sometimes.

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sunynp
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby sunynp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?


Small local firm 2L summer. I mentioned in the original post it didn't work out because they couldn't justify the hours to make an offer, but there are associates there (maybe even a junior partner?) who have offered to be references and he has started including them as references where appropriate when applying to things. It wasn't transactional, so it's not helping in that department specifically, and it wasn't biglaw so again not a huge help. But it was a positive enough experience and he has references from it. I'm not sure what the overall takeaway (helping/hurting) from that would be...?

OCI both years was just a lot of what he's experienced the whole time - a good handful of callbacks (not an amazing record as far as screeners : callbacks, I wouldn't think, but definitely not terrible) with no results. The 2L summer firm was something he got I believe from a mass mailing, not through OCI.


Look it is a competitive job market for everyone. From reading between the lines think your husband has a problem with selling himself in interviews. Until he can improve his interview style, he is not going to get hired. This may mean really working on becoming a perfect interviewer. He could even ask some alumni to give him practice interview tips.

I'm also thinking that maybe he is defensive about hearing all this from you. When my brother-in-law lost his job he got depressed and my sister couldn't understand why he wasn't getting a job. She just added to the pressure. He felt he was doing the best he could and resented the pressure she gave him. It may be that your husband is doing the best he can right now.

Do you have any friends who went to law school with him who would be willing to take him out to lunch and have a talk with him?
Last edited by sunynp on Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:09 pm

I saw you edited, and I might have also missed some of your question the first time. he was class of 2012. I'm not exactly sure where the 2011 came up in conversation, I missed that. But yeah - just graduated, just studying for the bar now.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sunynp
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby sunynp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?

How long has he been out of work - I thought he was class of 2012 but someone mentioned 2011.



I saw you edited, and I might have also missed some of your question the first time. The firm was sort of municipal litigation-type stuff. he was class of 2012. I'm not exactly sure where the 2011 came up in conversation, I missed that. But yeah - just graduated, just studying for the bar now.


Yes, sorry I went back and added some questions.

Going back to my above post about interviewing, he needs to figure out how to spin what he did on that job into transactional stuff. It can be done. It is great he has good recommendations.

Look, it is tough to be unemployed. You should read some other threads here from 3Ls who don't have jobs. They are terribly hard on themselves and feel like losers compared to their employed classmates. I know you understand that.

I think that part of his problem is a lack of confidence because of not finding a job. But I think that is easy to turn around.

Also I don't mean to sound hard on you. You are being helpful to him and trying to find out information to help him. That's great.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:16 pm

Thanks, sunynp. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the issue, in general he's a very modest and laid-back person, so I can easily see himself not having that flash or sell-factor. Part of the reason I was asking about other ways to get a leg up through networking and cold calling alums, etc. is I feel like there's no way he's just going to wake up tomorrow and be a different person and magically be able to turn it on for interviews. So I guess I'm wondering if there are other ways to get that foot in the door that would at least help while he's trying to incrementally improve his interviewing skills, so he's not just a resume in a pile. It sounds like people do recommend that approach, so I think I'll try to get him to try some of those other techniques; but still definitely practice interviewing more and maybe see if there are people outside of the career office, like alums or something he could work with to improve. Everytime he's done a mock with the career office the feedback he gets is glowing, and I'm wondering if a) they're bs-ing, or b) if he does better because there's not really anything at stake in the moment.

sunynp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?


Small local firm 2L summer. I mentioned in the original post it didn't work out because they couldn't justify the hours to make an offer, but there are associates there (maybe even a junior partner?) who have offered to be references and he has started including them as references where appropriate when applying to things. It wasn't transactional, so it's not helping in that department specifically, and it wasn't biglaw so again not a huge help. But it was a positive enough experience and he has references from it. I'm not sure what the overall takeaway (helping/hurting) from that would be...?

OCI both years was just a lot of what he's experienced the whole time - a good handful of callbacks (not an amazing record as far as screeners : callbacks, I wouldn't think, but definitely not terrible) with no results. The 2L summer firm was something he got I believe from a mass mailing, not through OCI.


Look it is a competitive job market for everyone. From reading between the lines think your husband has a problem with selling himself in interviews. Until he can improve his interview style, he is not going to get hired. This may mean really working on becoming a perfect interviewer. He could even ask some alumni to give him practice interview tips.

I'm also thinking that maybe he is defensive about hearing all this from you. When my brother-in-law lost his job he got depressed and my sister couldn't understand why he wasn't getting a job. She just added to the pressure. He felt he was doing the best he could and resented the pressure she gave him. It may be that your husband is doing the best he can right now.

Do you have any friends who went to law school with him who would be willing to take him out to lunch and have a talk with him?

attractive_NUisance
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby attractive_NUisance » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:18 pm

Ok I thought he was 2011 for some reason. The situation is not nearly as drastic as a class of 2012 vs. class of 2011. He should probably just focus on the bar exam for the next month. Its not that unusual of a situation he is in and if he is 2012 none of his peers are working yet until the Fall. He is probably not great at interviews but he is probably getting better. Use the resources at the school (since they are aligned in the incentive to get your husband a job by 9 months after graduation to look better when they rank law schools). Use your resources through friends, family, and friends-of-friends. Most of the above advice applies just keep at it and stay positive. Keep applying and he can even apply again to places once he gets a bar exam pass to let them know that he just passed the bar. Its competitive out there but he went to an awesome school so that will help a lot. Northwestern alums want to help out fellow alums, believe me.

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manofjustice
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby manofjustice » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:19 pm

Just a broader point: I know a few people who graduated undergrad into the recession and had to take jobs far beneath their credentials. They stuck it out and either moved up or moved out (and up) and are doing okay now. They key for them is they got something.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:19 pm

100% agree, and I did read through a lot of posts here which is what ended up making me decide to post myself. It does seem like even though things are getting better there are still a lot of frustrated people out there, and I know he definitely has similar feelings...just like feeling inadequate. Particularly since it's not like he did poorly in school...in fact, even though that should make him feel better I think sometimes it makes him feel worse since there are people out there who did worse at school (and people he's had to work with in classes who he thinks are truly truly idiots - who he would have to fix work for on group projects - who got biglaw jobs). So it's almost more of a slap in the face than if he had actual bad grades.

In any case, thank you for your thoughts!

sunynp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?

How long has he been out of work - I thought he was class of 2012 but someone mentioned 2011.



I saw you edited, and I might have also missed some of your question the first time. The firm was sort of municipal litigation-type stuff. he was class of 2012. I'm not exactly sure where the 2011 came up in conversation, I missed that. But yeah - just graduated, just studying for the bar now.


Yes, sorry I went back and added some questions.

Going back to my above post about interviewing, he needs to figure out how to spin what he did on that job into transactional stuff. It can be done. It is great he has good recommendations.

Look, it is tough to be unemployed. You should read some other threads here from 3Ls who don't have jobs. They are terribly hard on themselves and feel like losers compared to their employed classmates. I know you understand that.

I think that part of his problem is a lack of confidence because of not finding a job. But I think that is easy to turn around.

Also I don't mean to sound hard on you. You are being helpful to him and trying to find out information to help him. That's great.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:20 pm

Has your husband considered staying in school to do an llm (i.e., Georgetown tax llm)?

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sunynp
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby sunynp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks, sunynp. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the issue, in general he's a very modest and laid-back person, so I can easily see himself not having that flash or sell-factor. Part of the reason I was asking about other ways to get a leg up through networking and cold calling alums, etc. is I feel like there's no way he's just going to wake up tomorrow and be a different person and magically be able to turn it on for interviews. So I guess I'm wondering if there are other ways to get that foot in the door that would at least help while he's trying to incrementally improve his interviewing skills, so he's not just a resume in a pile. It sounds like people do recommend that approach, so I think I'll try to get him to try some of those other techniques; but still definitely practice interviewing more and maybe see if there are people outside of the career office, like alums or something he could work with to improve. Everytime he's done a mock with the career office the feedback he gets is glowing, and I'm wondering if a) they're bs-ing, or b) if he does better because there's not really anything at stake in the moment.



Yes, alums like to be helpful to other people. He does need to use that angle as much as he can. It isn't an angle really, it is just a way to make a connection. I'm also wondering if he can find out from his old firm which firms handle municipal transactional work. It might be something.

When I contact people I don't know, I always look first to just try to make another connection. He should look at meeting alumni as a way to increase his network of friends and associates. It isn't like he is using them to get a job.

I also want to tell you. Having a laid back personality is a great asset for the pressure of transactional work. People need to be able to stay calm under immense stress and the fatigue of endless hours. His personality will help him there.

One more question! Sorry! What was his work experience pre-law? Can that help him in any way?

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:26 pm

Oh, sorry about that if I wasn't clear. This is good to know. I know he generally feels like the closer he gets to taking the bar the more dire it is in his head, and since I don't have anything to compare it to I was assuming it wasn't a very good situation....or at least not for what he wants to do. I mean I guess from the standpoint of really wanting to do transactional at a large firm, it's a bit of an issue, but I get what you're saying as far as there still being time to find SOMETHING.

You mentioned the reapplying thing once before as well. Would you say that just for open positions or cold calling/emailing back to firms that previously rejected him? He has occasionally reapplied to firms that he didn't get a callback for or something like that if they posted a position to the university, but I think he'd think this was crazy that if someone already rejected him once that he should re-email them or contact anyone there to try to reapply if there's nothing posted. Would you say that's incorrect and that I should encourage him to try to reapply to firms once he passes the bar? Is that any kind of firm or mostly low/mid-tiers?

attractive_NUisance wrote:Ok I thought he was 2011 for some reason. The situation is not nearly as drastic as a class of 2012 vs. class of 2011. He should probably just focus on the bar exam for the next month. Its not that unusual of a situation he is in and if he is 2012 none of his peers are working yet until the Fall. He is probably not great at interviews but he is probably getting better. Use the resources at the school (since they are aligned in the incentive to get your husband a job by 9 months after graduation to look better when they rank law schools). Use your resources through friends, family, and friends-of-friends. Most of the above advice applies just keep at it and stay positive. Keep applying and he can even apply again to places once he gets a bar exam pass to let them know that he just passed the bar. Its competitive out there but he went to an awesome school so that will help a lot. Northwestern alums want to help out fellow alums, believe me.

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rayiner
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?


Small local firm 2L summer. I mentioned in the original post it didn't work out because they couldn't justify the hours to make an offer, but there are associates there (maybe even a junior partner?) who have offered to be references and he has started including them as references where appropriate when applying to things. It wasn't transactional, so it's not helping in that department specifically, and it wasn't biglaw so again not a huge help. But it was a positive enough experience and he has references from it. I'm not sure what the overall takeaway (helping/hurting) from that would be...?

OCI both years was just a lot of what he's experienced the whole time - a good handful of callbacks (not an amazing record as far as screeners : callbacks, I wouldn't think, but definitely not terrible) with no results. The 2L summer firm was something he got I believe from a mass mailing, not through OCI.


3-4 callbacks should result in an offer. He should get in touch with an alumnus (not career services, but say a 2nd/3rd year associate) and ask for some brutally-honest interviewing criticism. In my opinion career services is insufficiently harsh when evaluating peoples' interviewing skills.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:31 pm

Hmmmm.....yes and no. It's not super strong, not because he didn't have a reasonable job, but because it's just not particularly applicable to law and was at a tiny company. Good undergrad credentials though and between his major and stuff he had to do at his job (contracts, negotiations, etc) he's tried to milk that that stuff a bit to drive home his experience but so far it hasn't really panned out. But again, I can't totally speak to what actually HAPPENS in interviews, only things that we've discussed as being good talking points and then he'll mention after interviews what kind of stuff came up or not, etc.

sunynp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks, sunynp. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the issue, in general he's a very modest and laid-back person, so I can easily see himself not having that flash or sell-factor. Part of the reason I was asking about other ways to get a leg up through networking and cold calling alums, etc. is I feel like there's no way he's just going to wake up tomorrow and be a different person and magically be able to turn it on for interviews. So I guess I'm wondering if there are other ways to get that foot in the door that would at least help while he's trying to incrementally improve his interviewing skills, so he's not just a resume in a pile. It sounds like people do recommend that approach, so I think I'll try to get him to try some of those other techniques; but still definitely practice interviewing more and maybe see if there are people outside of the career office, like alums or something he could work with to improve. Everytime he's done a mock with the career office the feedback he gets is glowing, and I'm wondering if a) they're bs-ing, or b) if he does better because there's not really anything at stake in the moment.



Yes, alums like to be helpful to other people. He does need to use that angle as much as he can. It isn't an angle really, it is just a way to make a connection. I'm also wondering if he can find out from his old firm which firms handle municipal transactional work. It might be something.

When I contact people I don't know, I always look first to just try to make another connection. He should look at meeting alumni as a way to increase his network of friends and associates. It isn't like he is using them to get a job.

I also want to tell you. Having a laid back personality is a great asset for the pressure of transactional work. People need to be able to stay calm under immense stress and the fatigue of endless hours. His personality will help him there.

One more question! Sorry! What was his work experience pre-law? Can that help him in any way?

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:37 pm

Yeah, I want to say he's had......I don't know. 7-8 callbacks? Great advice, I'll have him take that into consideration for sure. From an outsider's perspective I feel like the career office has been a little....meh in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't really being brutally honest.

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:What did your husband do the summer of his 2L year? This could be hurting him. I know you said a small firm but how small? What work was he doing?

What happened with OCI exactly?


Small local firm 2L summer. I mentioned in the original post it didn't work out because they couldn't justify the hours to make an offer, but there are associates there (maybe even a junior partner?) who have offered to be references and he has started including them as references where appropriate when applying to things. It wasn't transactional, so it's not helping in that department specifically, and it wasn't biglaw so again not a huge help. But it was a positive enough experience and he has references from it. I'm not sure what the overall takeaway (helping/hurting) from that would be...?

OCI both years was just a lot of what he's experienced the whole time - a good handful of callbacks (not an amazing record as far as screeners : callbacks, I wouldn't think, but definitely not terrible) with no results. The 2L summer firm was something he got I believe from a mass mailing, not through OCI.


3-4 callbacks should result in an offer. He should get in touch with an alumnus (not career services, but say a 2nd/3rd year associate) and ask for some brutally-honest interviewing criticism. In my opinion career services is insufficiently harsh when evaluating peoples' interviewing skills.

attractive_NUisance
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby attractive_NUisance » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:42 pm

I just think that since there are a finite group of firms out there it does not hurt to reapply in general. There might have been something else going on that explains why he wasn't selected for the position. (such as - oh we are slow in corporate right now, we like this guy but we like these litigation people too so we'll hire them for now. If 6 months later they unexpectedly lost four junior associates to other firms and are short people in that department they may have a new need for corporate associates. Their capital markets group may have landed a big new client and need help. If you reapply you have a chance of being considered in that group.) Obviously it isn't ideal to be reapplying to places that did not hire him before, but especially for transactional work there are really only a few hundred firms that hire significant numbers of people do this work. You will have to re-apply to have a shot with them. They will not think less of him for reapplying if anything it is flattering to the firm that he has maintained interest. There is no downside to reapplying, just a small amount of time, and worst case is that they just say "no thanks." Also it sounds like his GPA has been improving consistently over law school so that is an update to his profile that could possibly help.

Also, I agree with someone who previously said to apply to delaware. If he got a 1 year clerkship in the delaware chancery court or delaware supreme court that would be huge and would help him get a transactional job for sure. It is the most competitive state court, probably, but with his numbers he would probably have a good shot at it. There is a clerkship office at northwestern that would have more details and advice.

The bar exam is a lot of stress on its own. He might be able to focus on the job search more with better results after he finishes with the bar since it does take time to tailor applications to a firm and do sufficient research. Definitely stay on the job search a few hours a day but mostly he should be focused on the bar (in my opinion).

Anonymous User wrote:Oh, sorry about that if I wasn't clear. This is good to know. I know he generally feels like the closer he gets to taking the bar the more dire it is in his head, and since I don't have anything to compare it to I was assuming it wasn't a very good situation....or at least not for what he wants to do. I mean I guess from the standpoint of really wanting to do transactional at a large firm, it's a bit of an issue, but I get what you're saying as far as there still being time to find SOMETHING.

You mentioned the reapplying thing once before as well. Would you say that just for open positions or cold calling/emailing back to firms that previously rejected him? He has occasionally reapplied to firms that he didn't get a callback for or something like that if they posted a position to the university, but I think he'd think this was crazy that if someone already rejected him once that he should re-email them or contact anyone there to try to reapply if there's nothing posted. Would you say that's incorrect and that I should encourage him to try to reapply to firms once he passes the bar? Is that any kind of firm or mostly low/mid-tiers?

attractive_NUisance wrote:Ok I thought he was 2011 for some reason. The situation is not nearly as drastic as a class of 2012 vs. class of 2011. He should probably just focus on the bar exam for the next month. Its not that unusual of a situation he is in and if he is 2012 none of his peers are working yet until the Fall. He is probably not great at interviews but he is probably getting better. Use the resources at the school (since they are aligned in the incentive to get your husband a job by 9 months after graduation to look better when they rank law schools). Use your resources through friends, family, and friends-of-friends. Most of the above advice applies just keep at it and stay positive. Keep applying and he can even apply again to places once he gets a bar exam pass to let them know that he just passed the bar. Its competitive out there but he went to an awesome school so that will help a lot. Northwestern alums want to help out fellow alums, believe me.

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rayiner
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, I want to say he's had......I don't know. 7-8 callbacks? Great advice, I'll have him take that into consideration for sure. From an outsider's perspective I feel like the career office has been a little....meh in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't really being brutally honest.


It's entirely possible to do everything right and still, out of bad luck, come up with nothing out of 7-8 callbacks. At the same time, I also know people with worse grades who turned 2-3 callbacks into multiple offers.

90% of the battle with callback interviews is just knowing what game you're playing (and like everything, it's a game). The rules of the game are to impress the two or three partners on your callback schedule, and make them see in you themselves as young bright-eyed bushy-tailed associates. How do you think partners, in hindsight, imagine themselves fresh out of law school? Eager to learn from their elders, eager to work hard, but also motivated enough to become partner someday. You have to go 2/2 or 3/3 or whatever with the partners--because someone else will.

The rules with regards to associates is to come across as a chill dude who doesn't take himself too seriously and would be tolerable to work with on a late-night project. Being outgoing, smiley, and friendly goes a long way here.

Beyond the personality angle, it's important to stay on message. It's very easy to let the partner do all the talking and at the end of it he might not even remember you. You gotta have your three talking points in mind: 1) why you're a great candidate; 2) why you want to work for that firm; 3) why you want to work in that market. And you gotta (politely!) keep redirecting the conversation to those talking points without coming across as artificial or forced. In my opinion this is where career services' interviews really fall down. They'll lead you to your talking points instead of being like a real interviewer and rambling on about some irrelevant tangent and forcing you to take control of the conversation.

attractive_NUisance
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby attractive_NUisance » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:55 pm

Just generally he should have a very compelling story to tell at every firm he interviews with. Basically, he is the perfect person for this particular job and the firm will make tons of money on him and the clients will love him. He should have three good reasons why they should hire him over the hundreds of other people applying for the same slot. Research the firm enough that he can connect his background with the particular firm and opportunity in a persuasive way. Research is not just internet research but also talking to friends and alums at the firm and similar firms to understand why they see the firm as a completely unique place. Be really passionate and high energy and try to literally make each interviewer love you and want to be your best friend for life.

It might seem like its just "BS" to do for interviewing, but the type of in-person connecting to a stranger that you do in a good interview will be applicable to lots of other things he does at a law firm. (working with a new team, talking to a regulator, pitching a prospective client, etc). It is good to practice those skills and get better.

memo2partner
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby memo2partner » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:59 pm

Does your husband have ties to the regions where he is applying? A lot of firms might be hesitant to hire someone without geographic ties. They wouldn't want to hire someone and then a year later find out that the associate has to move closer to home so his parents can help raise his kids.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:07 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, I want to say he's had......I don't know. 7-8 callbacks? Great advice, I'll have him take that into consideration for sure. From an outsider's perspective I feel like the career office has been a little....meh in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't really being brutally honest.


It's entirely possible to do everything right and still, out of bad luck, come up with nothing out of 7-8 callbacks. At the same time, I also know people with worse grades who turned 2-3 callbacks into multiple offers.

90% of the battle with callback interviews is just knowing what game you're playing (and like everything, it's a game). The rules of the game are to impress the two or three partners on your callback schedule, and make them see in you themselves as young bright-eyed bushy-tailed associates. How do you think partners, in hindsight, imagine themselves fresh out of law school? Eager to learn from their elders, eager to work hard, but also motivated enough to become partner someday. You have to go 2/2 or 3/3 or whatever with the partners--because someone else will.

The rules with regards to associates is to come across as a chill dude who doesn't take himself too seriously and would be tolerable to work with on a late-night project. Being outgoing, smiley, and friendly goes a long way here.

Beyond the personality angle, it's important to stay on message. It's very easy to let the partner do all the talking and at the end of it he might not even remember you. You gotta have your three talking points in mind: 1) why you're a great candidate; 2) why you want to work for that firm; 3) why you want to work in that market. And you gotta (politely!) keep redirecting the conversation to those talking points without coming across as artificial or forced. In my opinion this is where career services' interviews really fall down. They'll lead you to your talking points instead of being like a real interviewer and rambling on about some irrelevant tangent and forcing you to take control of the conversation.


Based on my experience (~5 callbacks, no offers), I wholeheartedly agree. I feel like I didn't figure out the basics of this "game" until recently, and I can barely get a callback anywhere at this point. Good advice, and well-phrased.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:08 pm

We've put emphasis on prioritizing places at least one of us has ties to. There haven't really been a ton of firms that he's gotten screeners for that have loose ties, so there's generally at least something strong to say for most places once he gets to the point where he's screening or in a real interview.

memo2partner wrote:Does your husband have ties to the regions where he is applying? A lot of firms might be hesitant to hire someone without geographic ties. They wouldn't want to hire someone and then a year later find out that the associate has to move closer to home so his parents can help raise his kids.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:13 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, I want to say he's had......I don't know. 7-8 callbacks? Great advice, I'll have him take that into consideration for sure. From an outsider's perspective I feel like the career office has been a little....meh in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't really being brutally honest.


It's entirely possible to do everything right and still, out of bad luck, come up with nothing out of 7-8 callbacks. At the same time, I also know people with worse grades who turned 2-3 callbacks into multiple offers.

90% of the battle with callback interviews is just knowing what game you're playing (and like everything, it's a game). The rules of the game are to impress the two or three partners on your callback schedule, and make them see in you themselves as young bright-eyed bushy-tailed associates. How do you think partners, in hindsight, imagine themselves fresh out of law school? Eager to learn from their elders, eager to work hard, but also motivated enough to become partner someday. You have to go 2/2 or 3/3 or whatever with the partners--because someone else will.

The rules with regards to associates is to come across as a chill dude who doesn't take himself too seriously and would be tolerable to work with on a late-night project. Being outgoing, smiley, and friendly goes a long way here.

Beyond the personality angle, it's important to stay on message. It's very easy to let the partner do all the talking and at the end of it he might not even remember you. You gotta have your three talking points in mind: 1) why you're a great candidate; 2) why you want to work for that firm; 3) why you want to work in that market. And you gotta (politely!) keep redirecting the conversation to those talking points without coming across as artificial or forced. In my opinion this is where career services' interviews really fall down. They'll lead you to your talking points instead of being like a real interviewer and rambling on about some irrelevant tangent and forcing you to take control of the conversation.


This is really great advice. I think he IS a chill dude who doesn't take himself seriously and would be very tolerable to work with late nights so I'm guessing he does well with the associates, but I think maybe he's not selling himself and lacking on the bushy-tailed aspects, so he never quite gets there with the partners? Just a guess.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

memo2partner
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby memo2partner » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, I want to say he's had......I don't know. 7-8 callbacks? Great advice, I'll have him take that into consideration for sure. From an outsider's perspective I feel like the career office has been a little....meh in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't really being brutally honest.


It's entirely possible to do everything right and still, out of bad luck, come up with nothing out of 7-8 callbacks. At the same time, I also know people with worse grades who turned 2-3 callbacks into multiple offers.

90% of the battle with callback interviews is just knowing what game you're playing (and like everything, it's a game). The rules of the game are to impress the two or three partners on your callback schedule, and make them see in you themselves as young bright-eyed bushy-tailed associates. How do you think partners, in hindsight, imagine themselves fresh out of law school? Eager to learn from their elders, eager to work hard, but also motivated enough to become partner someday. You have to go 2/2 or 3/3 or whatever with the partners--because someone else will.

The rules with regards to associates is to come across as a chill dude who doesn't take himself too seriously and would be tolerable to work with on a late-night project. Being outgoing, smiley, and friendly goes a long way here.

Beyond the personality angle, it's important to stay on message. It's very easy to let the partner do all the talking and at the end of it he might not even remember you. You gotta have your three talking points in mind: 1) why you're a great candidate; 2) why you want to work for that firm; 3) why you want to work in that market. And you gotta (politely!) keep redirecting the conversation to those talking points without coming across as artificial or forced. In my opinion this is where career services' interviews really fall down. They'll lead you to your talking points instead of being like a real interviewer and rambling on about some irrelevant tangent and forcing you to take control of the conversation.


This is really great advice. I think he IS a chill dude who doesn't take himself seriously and would be very tolerable to work with late nights so I'm guessing he does well with the associates, but I think maybe he's not selling himself and lacking on the bushy-tailed aspects, so he never quite gets there with the partners? Just a guess. On a related note...I mentioned earlier he went to law school later. Could this be considered an issue at all? As far as maybe lacking that bright-eyed 26 year old vibe? I wonder if there's anything problematic about his age that he would need to overcome, or if that's not a factor at all?


Age is a factor if he wants to join JAG. Actually, military might be a good option at this point for your husband.

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rayiner
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Re: My recent graduate husband

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:26 pm

Most people at NU are older. It shouldn't be any problem unless we're talking 40+.




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