CLS EIP Bidding

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overandout
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:09 pm

So basically I'm wondering two things. I am a K-JD and have a 3.77 for 1L. First, are there any firms that I'm per se excluded from and shouldn't even bother bidding on, or is everything possible, even if it is a stretch? Second, what's the best way to actually research firms? Is it all about Chambers and Vault, or are there some other sources that are actually worthwhile/recommended? Sorry if some of this has been answered elsewhere, but I do appreciate any help.

ETA: Forgot to mention, we haven't found out about journals yet, but will making/missing LR have a legitimate impact on where I could conceivably get hired?

Anonymous User
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:45 pm

You have a shot everywhere. You may not be a lock at the most grade-conscious firms (Wachtel, W&C, etc.) and at the firms that are slightly less selective on grades but place a lot of emphasis on personality (Davis Polk, Debevoise, Cleary, etc.), but you have a chance at all of them.

As for research, I did OCI a few years ago and found Vault the most helpful, combined with ATL and Google News searches. The Vault rankings are practically useless for research purposes, but the Vault descriptions are helpful to get a sense of what various firms do and what their culture is like.

overandout
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You have a shot everywhere. You may not be a lock at the most grade-conscious firms (Wachtel, W&C, etc.) and at the firms that are slightly less selective on grades but place a lot of emphasis on personality (Davis Polk, Debevoise, Cleary, etc.), but you have a chance at all of them.

As for research, I did OCI a few years ago and found Vault the most helpful, combined with ATL and Google News searches. The Vault rankings are practically useless for research purposes, but the Vault descriptions are helpful to get a sense of what various firms do and what their culture is like.


Cool thanks. Pretty nice to hear no firm is totally off the table! And yeah, I figured Vault's actual orderings would be useless because "prestige" is a pretty absurd basis to rank by... Did you find that when you did screener interviews, firm-culture was much of a talking point, or was the conversation generally more about practice areas that you found interesting?

Anonymous User
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:50 pm

overandout wrote:Did you find that when you did screener interviews, firm-culture was much of a talking point, or was the conversation generally more about practice areas that you found interesting?


Firm culture wasn't something they would quiz you on, but it is something you might bring up yourself, e.g., when an interviewer asks you why you are applying with XYZ firm. Mostly, though, reading these 'firm culture' blurbs may help you get a sense of what a firm would be like to work at, and may help you narrow down your bid list. I suspect that for most people practice groups, location, and reputation of the firm come first, but even narrowing down based on those criteria, you might be left with more firms than spots on your bid list. And at that point you can start crossing off the firms that you think sound nasty or fratty or geeky or formal or overly social, or whatever aspects you don't like. And you may find yourself attracted to particular firms because what you hear about them speaks to you, so you put them on the top of your list, research the hell out of them and hope you get an offer.

imchuckbass58
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Your grades put you in the running absolutely everywhere. In case you're not aware (maybe you are and are just being modest), 3.77 is astronomically high - top 5% after 1L.

Also, the way the law review selection formula works you have a very good chance at one of the mixed grade/write on spots unless you shit a brick on the writing competition.

overandout
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
overandout wrote:Did you find that when you did screener interviews, firm-culture was much of a talking point, or was the conversation generally more about practice areas that you found interesting?


Firm culture wasn't something they would quiz you on, but it is something you might bring up yourself, e.g., when an interviewer asks you why you are applying with XYZ firm. Mostly, though, reading these 'firm culture' blurbs may help you get a sense of what a firm would be like to work at, and may help you narrow down your bid list. I suspect that for most people practice groups, location, and reputation of the firm come first, but even narrowing down based on those criteria, you might be left with more firms than spots on your bid list. And at that point you can start crossing off the firms that you think sound nasty or fratty or geeky or formal or overly social, or whatever aspects you don't like. And you may find yourself attracted to particular firms because what you hear about them speaks to you, so you put them on the top of your list, research the hell out of them and hope you get an offer.



Yeah that makes sense, thanks.

imchuckbass58 wrote:Your grades put you in the running absolutely everywhere. In case you're not aware (maybe you are and are just being modest), 3.77 is astronomically high - top 5% after 1L.

Also, the way the law review selection formula works you have a very good chance at one of the mixed grade/write on spots unless you shit a brick on the writing competition.


I knew 3.77 was high, but I figured there had to be some reason that Kent Scholar exists as a designation. I figured 3.77 was more like top 10% but I guess I misjudged. Also, for Law Review, that's awesome. I felt like what I wrote was pretty solid, so hopefully that will turn out favorably. I guess I just have to figure out what firms I actually want to apply to...

overandout
Posts: 25
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:16 am

Okay, I have made a list of firms. I haven't actually put them in order yet, but I'd really appreciate any input as to whether these selections look totally off-base as compared to the rest of the group. Also if anyone has any strong feelings about any firm in the list (either positive or negative), it would be awesome for you to share! It's a lot to wrap my head around trying to parse what the cultures of all these firms are like, so any input is really useful.

Also, if it isn't obvious from the list, I'm interested in going the corporate route. Everything is New York.

Skadden
Davis Polk
Sullivan & Cromwell
Cleary Gottlieb
Simpson Thacher
Paul Weiss
Cravath
Kirkland & Ellis
Latham
Weil
Debevoise
Willkie Farr
Milbank Tweed
Gibson Dunn
Fried Frank
Wachtell
Proskauer
Cadwalader
Shearman & Sterling
Dechert
Schulte Roth
Ropes & Gray
Boies (Corporate group)
Sidley Austin
Paul Hastings
Jones Day
Akin Gump
Goodwin Procter
Kaye Scholer
McKinsey

Magnificent
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Magnificent » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:51 am

Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.

Anonymous User
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:55 am

Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


listen bro, forget what you are interested in or where you want to live, prestige-whore it out because you can. Plus, the biggest legal market in the world is "terrible" at most practices. Solid advice

overandout
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:26 am

Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list? And I am pretty much positive I want to do corporate. As fun as arguing at trial sounds, I don't like combing through cases in isolation for two weeks. The idea of working with people from different professional backgrounds in order to try and make a deal happen (whether it's reaching an agreement on a restructuring or sealing an M&A) is much more appealing to me.

Plus, I'm not so sure I want to remain a lawyer for the rest of my life. I would rather move in a direction where I am at least getting some interaction with the strategy side of business so that I can potentially move into a more business-related role later on, or even get involved with a start-up. I obviously understand that being a corporate lawyer isn't the same as getting an MBA, but at the very least, M&A generally requires gaining a pretty thorough understanding of the business behind the parties involved, and any debt or equity offering does also, in order to make sure disclosures are correct.

overandout
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


listen bro, forget what you are interested in or where you want to live, prestige-whore it out because you can. Plus, the biggest legal market in the world is "terrible" at most practices. Solid advice


Oh I somehow overlooked this post, but I tend to think you're right to be mocking what Magnificent said... Do you think that he had any merit in his criticism at all?

MTC87
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby MTC87 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:35 pm

overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list?


If your focus is on M&A or capital markets, then it's very, very hard to see why you'd pick some of these firms over the multiple v10 offers you'll be getting. That doesn't mean they're terrible---they have their own strengths---but stacking up, say, Gibson Dunn (NY corporate) against some of the firms who will offer you is close to a no-brainer.

As to whether or not the "NYC is terrible at everything but corporate" criticism has merit, it's correct to the extent that you can do much better than NYC for lit. With your GPA, you should not be closing yourself off to DC, MTO, other CA-based lit, etc., if you're at all considering lit.

overandout
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:55 pm

MTC87 wrote:
overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list?


If your focus is on M&A or capital markets, then it's very, very hard to see why you'd pick some of these firms over the multiple v10 offers you'll be getting. That doesn't mean they're terrible---they have their own strengths---but stacking up, say, Gibson Dunn (NY corporate) against some of the firms who will offer you is close to a no-brainer.

As to whether or not the "NYC is terrible at everything but corporate" criticism has merit, it's correct to the extent that you can do much better than NYC for lit. With your GPA, you should not be closing yourself off to DC, MTO, other CA-based lit, etc., if you're at all considering lit.


Hm... I was under the impression that in order to do CA, you basically need to have connections there because you have to know a secret handshake to get past the state borders or something.

itbdvorm
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby itbdvorm » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm

overandout wrote:
MTC87 wrote:
overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list?


If your focus is on M&A or capital markets, then it's very, very hard to see why you'd pick some of these firms over the multiple v10 offers you'll be getting. That doesn't mean they're terrible---they have their own strengths---but stacking up, say, Gibson Dunn (NY corporate) against some of the firms who will offer you is close to a no-brainer.

As to whether or not the "NYC is terrible at everything but corporate" criticism has merit, it's correct to the extent that you can do much better than NYC for lit. With your GPA, you should not be closing yourself off to DC, MTO, other CA-based lit, etc., if you're at all considering lit.


Hm... I was under the impression that in order to do CA, you basically need to have connections there because you have to know a secret handshake to get past the state borders or something.


I suspect a 3.77 GPA from Columbia qualifies. Though they will want a rationale for why that firm / city / etc. If you were trying to do lit and interviewed at MTO and said "I am interviewing at the elite litigation shops in the USA; location doesn't really matter to me, I want to go to the place that will develop me into the best litigator possible and that's why I'm interviewing w/you" I can't imagine they'd say "no, not from CA" (but they still might not give you a callback because they're so small).

Let me know if you'd like to discuss any of these off-line - I'm loathe to generally bad-mouth firms but happy to be a bit more specific about different places if you've got actual considerations in mind

Magnificent
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Magnificent » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


listen bro, forget what you are interested in or where you want to live, prestige-whore it out because you can. Plus, the biggest legal market in the world is "terrible" at most practices. Solid advice


NYC is completely finance focused. Its the biggest legal market because it serves the biggest financial market and the finance boys pay the highest fees, hence the obsession with finance work in NYC. Even the litigation in NYC is derivative of the NYC corporate work. Unless you are 100% sure you want to work on finance related matters 100% of the time, NYC is a terrible place to practice law. Also, most of the big NYC firms are so corporate heavy that if you ever wanted to do litigation, you would mostly be servicing the corporate partners clients. Its really not a place conducive to other practice areas outside finance.

You get alot more variety and interesting work in DC and LA. Hence, NYC being terrible at everything except corporate.

Magnificent
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Magnificent » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:50 pm

overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list? And I am pretty much positive I want to do corporate. As fun as arguing at trial sounds, I don't like combing through cases in isolation for two weeks. The idea of working with people from different professional backgrounds in order to try and make a deal happen (whether it's reaching an agreement on a restructuring or sealing an M&A) is much more appealing to me.

Plus, I'm not so sure I want to remain a lawyer for the rest of my life. I would rather move in a direction where I am at least getting some interaction with the strategy side of business so that I can potentially move into a more business-related role later on, or even get involved with a start-up. I obviously understand that being a corporate lawyer isn't the same as getting an MBA, but at the very least, M&A generally requires gaining a pretty thorough understanding of the business behind the parties involved, and any debt or equity offering does also, in order to make sure disclosures are correct.


Every non-V10 NYC firm is TERRIBLE for an applicant of your caliber. Those non-elite NYC firms are less profitable and less respected than the ultra top V10 firms. Plus unless you have a very specific practice area you know you want to do for the rest of your life (i.e. Project Finance, in which case Milbank might be a good option), the V10 NYC firms are just easily better in most of the broad practice areas than anyone of the other NYC firms.

Like I said earlier, unless you shit on yourself in interviews, you will snag a V10 NYC firm easily. As a result, you shouldn't waste many bids on non-V10 NYC firms, unless you have SPECIFIC practice areas that are highly respected in some of the lower ranked firms. The vault rankings are largely useless for ranking firms in general but they are a good indicator of the NYC corporate practice.

Magnificent
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:27 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Magnificent » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:52 pm

overandout wrote:
MTC87 wrote:
overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list?


If your focus is on M&A or capital markets, then it's very, very hard to see why you'd pick some of these firms over the multiple v10 offers you'll be getting. That doesn't mean they're terrible---they have their own strengths---but stacking up, say, Gibson Dunn (NY corporate) against some of the firms who will offer you is close to a no-brainer.

As to whether or not the "NYC is terrible at everything but corporate" criticism has merit, it's correct to the extent that you can do much better than NYC for lit. With your GPA, you should not be closing yourself off to DC, MTO, other CA-based lit, etc., if you're at all considering lit.


Hm... I was under the impression that in order to do CA, you basically need to have connections there because you have to know a secret handshake to get past the state borders or something.


I'm beginning to suspect your a flame now. Your GPA plus your school makes you a desirable candidate for every firm in the country. If you express interest, you don't have to worry about connections. Lower ranked students have to worry about that. Elite students like yourself don't have to concern yourself with connections.

Anonymous User
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:52 pm

Magnificent is a horrible poster. Thinks everyone wants the same thing. Equates less important with "terrible." Calls flame on legit questions. All the douchebaggery of a radlulz with non of the top-flight comedy.

overandout
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:21 am

itbdvorm wrote:
overandout wrote:Hm... I was under the impression that in order to do CA, you basically need to have connections there because you have to know a secret handshake to get past the state borders or something.


I suspect a 3.77 GPA from Columbia qualifies. Though they will want a rationale for why that firm / city / etc. If you were trying to do lit and interviewed at MTO and said "I am interviewing at the elite litigation shops in the USA; location doesn't really matter to me, I want to go to the place that will develop me into the best litigator possible and that's why I'm interviewing w/you" I can't imagine they'd say "no, not from CA" (but they still might not give you a callback because they're so small).

Let me know if you'd like to discuss any of these off-line - I'm loathe to generally bad-mouth firms but happy to be a bit more specific about different places if you've got actual considerations in mind


That makes sense, I guess I'm just discounting the value of the GPA here, since it seems like the flight-risk fear inherent in asking about ties wouldn't be alleviated by high grades. But I suppose it would make them more willing to take the risk than otherwise. And I really appreciate the offer to discuss particularities! I may PM you within the next couple of days.

overandout
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:33 am

Magnificent wrote:
overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list? And I am pretty much positive I want to do corporate. As fun as arguing at trial sounds, I don't like combing through cases in isolation for two weeks. The idea of working with people from different professional backgrounds in order to try and make a deal happen (whether it's reaching an agreement on a restructuring or sealing an M&A) is much more appealing to me.

Plus, I'm not so sure I want to remain a lawyer for the rest of my life. I would rather move in a direction where I am at least getting some interaction with the strategy side of business so that I can potentially move into a more business-related role later on, or even get involved with a start-up. I obviously understand that being a corporate lawyer isn't the same as getting an MBA, but at the very least, M&A generally requires gaining a pretty thorough understanding of the business behind the parties involved, and any debt or equity offering does also, in order to make sure disclosures are correct.


Every non-V10 NYC firm is TERRIBLE for an applicant of your caliber. Those non-elite NYC firms are less profitable and less respected than the ultra top V10 firms. Plus unless you have a very specific practice area you know you want to do for the rest of your life (i.e. Project Finance, in which case Milbank might be a good option), the V10 NYC firms are just easily better in most of the broad practice areas than anyone of the other NYC firms.

Like I said earlier, unless you shit on yourself in interviews, you will snag a V10 NYC firm easily. As a result, you shouldn't waste many bids on non-V10 NYC firms, unless you have SPECIFIC practice areas that are highly respected in some of the lower ranked firms. The vault rankings are largely useless for ranking firms in general but they are a good indicator of the NYC corporate practice.


Okay, to better explain how I actually arrived at these rankings... I looked at the Chambers bands for anti-trust, bankruptcy, capital markets, M&A, real estate, PE, and securities. Those are the areas I'm most interested and think are most likely to comport with my long-term goals. I am still failing to understand what firms I listed are so awful and lack any proficiency in these areas that it is ludicrous to even list them. Obviously I'm not going to pick Dechert over Skadden, but the thing about the V10 is that there are only 10 of them, and I have 30 bids to use. The remote possibility DOES exist that I could strike out at every one of the firms in the V10, and then what?

On top of that, you and a few others seem to be suggesting that I should be considering firms like MTO. The thing is, I am fairly certain I am interested in corporate. Even granting that I'm not 100% sure, why would I bid on a boutique litigation firm that does a smattering of corporate work if I'm leaning towards corporate? Assuming I got an offer from MTO, wouldn't accepting it basically pigeonhole me into litigation or a very homogenous version of corporate work? I know you say that the corporate work in NYC is also homogenous, but surely the work is more diverse at a corporate semi-powerhouse wannabe in NYC than it is at a litigation-focused boutique in California... And likewise, I have difficulty imagining that there is anywhere near as much corporate work in DC as there is in NY, but maybe that is just an unfounded bias.

And if I'm suffering from any misconceptions, please enlighten me. The extent of my knowledge is what I've picked up from browsing these forums, and my CSO, where the counselor told me that she saw me starting my career in NY and that I should be bidding firms in the city. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about, I'm trying to figure it out...

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Detrox
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Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Detrox » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:40 am

overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:
overandout wrote:
Magnificent wrote:Listen bro with a GPA that high you shouldn't waste your time bidding on so many terrible NYC firms. You should only bid on the V10 in NYC and spread the rest of your bids on top firms in DC, LA, and Chicago. Your GPA makes you a lock for S&C as long as you don't shit yourself in the interview.

Plus are you really sure you want to do corporate? NYC are terrible at pretty much everything else and unless you are 100% confident that is what you want to do, you shouldn't limit yourself to just NYC.


What firms are "terrible" in this list? And I am pretty much positive I want to do corporate. As fun as arguing at trial sounds, I don't like combing through cases in isolation for two weeks. The idea of working with people from different professional backgrounds in order to try and make a deal happen (whether it's reaching an agreement on a restructuring or sealing an M&A) is much more appealing to me.

Plus, I'm not so sure I want to remain a lawyer for the rest of my life. I would rather move in a direction where I am at least getting some interaction with the strategy side of business so that I can potentially move into a more business-related role later on, or even get involved with a start-up. I obviously understand that being a corporate lawyer isn't the same as getting an MBA, but at the very least, M&A generally requires gaining a pretty thorough understanding of the business behind the parties involved, and any debt or equity offering does also, in order to make sure disclosures are correct.


Every non-V10 NYC firm is TERRIBLE for an applicant of your caliber. Those non-elite NYC firms are less profitable and less respected than the ultra top V10 firms. Plus unless you have a very specific practice area you know you want to do for the rest of your life (i.e. Project Finance, in which case Milbank might be a good option), the V10 NYC firms are just easily better in most of the broad practice areas than anyone of the other NYC firms.

Like I said earlier, unless you shit on yourself in interviews, you will snag a V10 NYC firm easily. As a result, you shouldn't waste many bids on non-V10 NYC firms, unless you have SPECIFIC practice areas that are highly respected in some of the lower ranked firms. The vault rankings are largely useless for ranking firms in general but they are a good indicator of the NYC corporate practice.


Okay, to better explain how I actually arrived at these rankings... I looked at the Chambers bands for anti-trust, bankruptcy, capital markets, M&A, real estate, PE, and securities. Those are the areas I'm most interested and think are most likely to comport with my long-term goals. I am still failing to understand what firms I listed are so awful and lack any proficiency in these areas that it is ludicrous to even list them. Obviously I'm not going to pick Dechert over Skadden, but the thing about the V10 is that there are only 10 of them, and I have 30 bids to use. The remote possibility DOES exist that I could strike out at every one of the firms in the V10, and then what?

On top of that, you and a few others seem to be suggesting that I should be considering firms like MTO. The thing is, I am fairly certain I am interested in corporate. Even granting that I'm not 100% sure, why would I bid on a boutique litigation firm that does a smattering of corporate work if I'm leaning towards corporate? Assuming I got an offer from MTO, wouldn't accepting it basically pigeonhole me into litigation or a very homogenous version of corporate work? I know you say that the corporate work in NYC is also homogenous, but surely the work is more diverse at a corporate semi-powerhouse wannabe in NYC than it is at a litigation-focused boutique in California... And likewise, I have difficulty imagining that there is anywhere near as much corporate work in DC as there is in NY, but maybe that is just an unfounded bias.

And if I'm suffering from any misconceptions, please enlighten me. The extent of my knowledge is what I've picked up from browsing these forums, and my CSO, where the counselor told me that she saw me starting my career in NY and that I should be bidding firms in the city. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about, I'm trying to figure it out...


Ignore Magnificent, he's a rampant troll who thinks that the only "real" lawyer work is litigation. You seem to be bidding intelligently and don't let people on this site make you second guess yourself.

overandout
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby overandout » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:24 pm

Detrox wrote:You seem to be bidding intelligently and don't let people on this site make you second guess yourself.


Cool, appreciate it.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273128
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:17 pm

How does this change for someone with a 3.68 at CLS, significant drop from 1st to 2nd semesters, interesting work experience (but not impressive like consulting or particularly relevant to work at a law firm). Interested in litigation. I'm assuming I'm out of the running for law review. Thanks.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:17 pm

OP: Looks like a good bidlist. You may not be a 100% lock for a V5 firm but you are basically 99%. You should have your pick of CSM, DPW, S+C, Skadden, STB. Wachtell is in play but they are a crapshoot even for someone with your grades. Most people I know with grades in your range (3.65+) cleaned up. LR shouldn't be a factor if you want to do corporate. Just make sure you have a good idea of what corporate law is.

I agree with other posters who say that if you want corporate, round out your bidlist with non-V10 NYC firms. You'll still get exposure to a wide variety of corporate departments even if those firms are not Band 1 in everything.

Anonymous User wrote:How does this change for someone with a 3.68 at CLS, significant drop from 1st to 2nd semesters, interesting work experience (but not impressive like consulting or particularly relevant to work at a law firm). Interested in litigation. I'm assuming I'm out of the running for law review. Thanks.


It doesn't really change much. The tippy-top firms, W+C, WLRK, MTO might be longshots, but you can afford to bid them anyway. You also might want to think about bidding some DC firms as well. You should be good for the high-end NYC litigation practices.

viking138
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: CLS EIP Bidding

Postby viking138 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:35 pm

I would just add that with the new curve, I'm unsure that you're top 5%. I think top 10% is the more conservative and safer guesstimate. Otherwise, what everyone else said (except for Magnificent) seems right based upon my experience (3.55 on old curve so probably 3.63ish on new curve?)




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