Less selective DC firms

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rockthered86
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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby rockthered86 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:57 pm

How selective is Hogan Lovells? According to NALP their DC office has an expected 2012 summer class of 32. Can anyone confirm how many they actually took?

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:08 am

rockthered86 wrote:How selective is Hogan Lovells? According to NALP their DC office has an expected 2012 summer class of 32. Can anyone confirm how many they actually took?


Moderately selective for DC. Substantially less than Covington or Wilmer, slightly but not much less than A&P. Relative to NYC firms, I'd say around as selective as DPW/STB/Cleary. You want to be top 1/4 at a T14 at least.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:59 am

rockthered86 wrote:How selective is Hogan Lovells? According to NALP their DC office has an expected 2012 summer class of 32. Can anyone confirm how many they actually took?


Not sure where you go, but according to GULC CSO data, they like top 10% at GULC.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:44 am

Jessuf wrote:
rockthered86 wrote:How selective is Hogan Lovells? According to NALP their DC office has an expected 2012 summer class of 32. Can anyone confirm how many they actually took?


Not sure where you go, but according to GULC CSO data, they like top 10% at GULC.


I know someone who is outside top 10% (but solidly top 25%) who got an SA there in the last couple of years.

Class size is in the high 30s this year.

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sambeber
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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby sambeber » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:26 am

Jessuf wrote:
donniedarko wrote:Not sure if this is a valid question, but to your knowledge, do certain NY firms seem more GULC friendly than others?


Regarding this and your previous question, I am making a spreadsheet for all of the DC firms and NYC firms that hire 3.0-3.5 if you'd like me to e-mail it to you. I'm hoping to finish it tomorrow. I already did the DC section, which is where my list came from. It has stuff like vault ranking, median hiring GULC GPA, number of GULC hires, number of expected 2012 SAs, interviews/bid ratio, average hours worked, compensation.


Important to note that the OCS median/minimum data is flawed in two ways. It's from the last 10 years so it (1) is partially pre-ITE and (2) includes many years of hiring before the median changed (i.e., before they inflated grades.) So, it is more helpful for relative selectivity and less helpful for gauging an individual firm's hiring patterns, IMO.

edit: grammar
Last edited by sambeber on Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby spammertrollbadass » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:05 am

Great topic guys
long time lurker...
Is there anybody who was a generic gulc transfer (TT-TTT 7-1%ish) who did OCI in either the 2010 or 2011 cycle who could speak specifically to what types of firms (V???) that they interviewed at and their callback and offer ratio and in what cities they took SA's?

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby rockthered86 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:29 am

Jessuf wrote:
rockthered86 wrote:How selective is Hogan Lovells? According to NALP their DC office has an expected 2012 summer class of 32. Can anyone confirm how many they actually took?


Not sure where you go, but according to GULC CSO data, they like top 10% at GULC.


Thanks. Their hiring criteria at GW just says "superior academic credentials." As a transfer student at GW, it sounds like I probably shouldn't waste a bid if they are saying top 10% for GULC.

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jessuf
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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:59 am

rockthered86 wrote:
Jessuf wrote:
rockthered86 wrote:How selective is Hogan Lovells? According to NALP their DC office has an expected 2012 summer class of 32. Can anyone confirm how many they actually took?


Not sure where you go, but according to GULC CSO data, they like top 10% at GULC.


Thanks. Their hiring criteria at GW just says "superior academic credentials." As a transfer student at GW, it sounds like I probably shouldn't waste a bid if they are saying top 10% for GULC.


I know there are always outliers, so it wouldn't hurt to bid on them if you really like them. According to data from 1998-2011 published by GULC, the average 2L SA from GULC was top 10%, and I'm assuming they will be more selective now given the economy.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:03 am

sambeber wrote:
Jessuf wrote:
donniedarko wrote:Not sure if this is a valid question, but to your knowledge, do certain NY firms seem more GULC friendly than others?


Regarding this and your previous question, I am making a spreadsheet for all of the DC firms and NYC firms that hire 3.0-3.5 if you'd like me to e-mail it to you. I'm hoping to finish it tomorrow. I already did the DC section, which is where my list came from. It has stuff like vault ranking, median hiring GULC GPA, number of GULC hires, number of expected 2012 SAs, interviews/bid ratio, average hours worked, compensation.


Important to note that the OCS median/minimum data is flawed in two ways. It's from the last 10 years so it (1) is partially pre-ITE and (2) includes many years of hiring before the median changed (i.e., before they inflated grades.) So, it is more helpful for relative selectivity and less helpful for gauging an individual firm's hiring patterns, IMO.

edit: grammar


Good point. I figured that the firms would be more selective about the rankings they want given how some of the data is old. However, wasn't GULC's median lower at some point (like 3.0)? I mostly kept myself in the 3.0-3.4 range for bids but used a few bids for schools who hired at 3.5 as my reach (like Jones Day). I know who the really picky firms are and made sure not to bid on them, but everything else seems like a black box as there are always outliers.

Given that most firms have NYC and DC offices and will let you interview once for multiple offices, I barely bid on any DC offices unless the firm has no NYC office.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby XM3045 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:37 am

sambeber wrote:Important to note that the OCS median/minimum data is flawed in two ways. It's from the last 10 years so it (1) is partially pre-ITE and (2) includes many years of hiring before the median changed (i.e., before they inflated grades.) So, it is more helpful for relative selectivity and less helpful for gauging an individual firm's hiring patterns, IMO.


This is 100% correct. From my experience all the OCS list does is give you an idea of the selectivity of the firms. Using the median GPAs that includes years when everyone could land DC biglaw really skews the stats.

Also, just from my experience, even the less selective DC firms want you to be top 25% or maybe top 33% if you have a background in something that is centered in DC (antitrust, telecomm, regulatory work of any sort, tax litigation).

From a practical perspective, I would mentally move on from the DC idea. If you strike out at OCI, you will likely be willing to trade an arm for a lifetime associate postion in NYC. Spend a couple bids (like 2 or 3) on DC, hit NYC hard, and if you really want DC then hustle your ass off to hit up all the hospitlality suites for the DC firms you think you have a shot at. Go first thing in the AM and if they are interested they will call and set something up.

Good luck!

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:53 am

XM3045 wrote:From a practical perspective, I would mentally move on from the DC idea. If you strike out at OCI, you will likely be willing to trade an arm for a lifetime associate postion in NYC. Spend a couple bids (like 2 or 3) on DC, hit NYC hard, and if you really want DC then hustle your ass off to hit up all the hospitlality suites for the DC firms you think you have a shot at. Go first thing in the AM and if they are interested they will call and set something up.

Good luck!


Thanks for the advice. I only have 2 DC firms in my top 20 (the ones with the largest class sizes) and maybe 8 total out of 50 bids? Everything else in the top 20 is NYC, and everything else for my 50 bids is NYC or an area where I have strong ties. I understand how impossible DC is. I just wanted to know the least selective firms in DC so that I make sure I use the few bids I'm allocating to DC on the right firms. However, I plan on mass mailing like crazy in hopes someone will bite.

What is a hospitality suite?

XM3045
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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby XM3045 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:28 pm

Jessuf wrote:What is a hospitality suite?


Probably 1/2 the firms will have a suite, either downstairs or on the same floor as where their interview rooms are. Usually the recruiting staff is in there and basically organize everything for the attorneys.

They have food and drinks and free crap with the firm's name on it. "Supposedly" some firms keep a list of who swings by and use it as a way to gauge your interest in the firm. I don't really buy that, but lots of people will spend time in the suite before/after interviewing to show they are interested. You can also drop a resume off and say that you didnt get an interview or whatever, but that you are available that day if they have an open slot. If they are interested, they will make the time.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:06 pm

XM3045 wrote:
Jessuf wrote:What is a hospitality suite?


Probably 1/2 the firms will have a suite, either downstairs or on the same floor as where their interview rooms are. Usually the recruiting staff is in there and basically organize everything for the attorneys.

They have food and drinks and free crap with the firm's name on it. "Supposedly" some firms keep a list of who swings by and use it as a way to gauge your interest in the firm. I don't really buy that, but lots of people will spend time in the suite before/after interviewing to show they are interested. You can also drop a resume off and say that you didnt get an interview or whatever, but that you are available that day if they have an open slot. If they are interested, they will make the time.



Oh, ok, awesome tip! I noticed a lot of the firms hold receptions over the summer, but I can't make any of them because I'm down south for my internship. I'll definitely stop by one of the hospitality suites to show my interest.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby xcountryjunkie » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:15 am

GULC student here. There is no such thing as bidding conservatively DC. It's almost a contradiction in terms. I have too many GULC friends who struck out because they were DC-centric.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:15 am

xcountryjunkie wrote:GULC student here. There is no such thing as bidding conservatively DC. It's almost a contradiction in terms. I have too many GULC friends who struck out because they were DC-centric.


How highly ranked were your friends?

I keep hearing everyone say bid NY, however I have very strong ties to DC. Born in DC, lived in DC my whole life, worked in DC after undergrad, and now am going to one of the DC law schools. I'm concerned that I'll be wasting bids on NY because firms will peg me as someone who isn't committed to staying in NY. I've read stories on TLS about people who get NY interviews and the interviewer calls them out on their "DC resume."

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:
xcountryjunkie wrote:GULC student here. There is no such thing as bidding conservatively DC. It's almost a contradiction in terms. I have too many GULC friends who struck out because they were DC-centric.


How highly ranked were your friends?

I keep hearing everyone say bid NY, however I have very strong ties to DC. Born in DC, lived in DC my whole life, worked in DC after undergrad, and now am going to one of the DC law schools. I'm concerned that I'll be wasting bids on NY because firms will peg me as someone who isn't committed to staying in NY. I've read stories on TLS about people who get NY interviews and the interviewer calls them out on their "DC resume."


Believe me: NYC firms won't care. Don't fuck yourself by bidding stupidly and based on some stupid anecdote. NYC firms don't care about ties.

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jessuf
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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:39 am

So can someone confirm this: 1.) There is no such thing as a less selective DC firm because for the most part, no DC firms hire GULC students. 2.) Do not put any DC firms in your top 20 bids.



I need to know if I should re-order my top 20 bids to be only NY and FL.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:11 pm

GULC rising 3L here.

I was between top 10% and top 5% last year. My top 20 bids were 10 NY and 10 DC. The DC firms were:

A&P, Sidley, Wilmer, Hogan, Gibson, Latham, Akin, Fried Frank, Kirkland, and W&C.

I got CBs at all of my 10 NY firms (which were the V10 minus Wachtell plus Debevoise) and cancelled many after getting the V5 offer I wanted.

I got CBs at 3 DC firms (two from my top 20 and one from which a firm I picked up an interview), and only converted one offer there. The offer was from the firm that I picked up and interview from, which is/was ranked lower than V25

Make no mistake: Getting an offer in DC is very, very hard, even at the top of GULC. If you bid all-DC, it is likely that you will strike out, unless you are #1. If you are median and want to bid DC, I would think very hard about whether you value Big Law in DC so much to risk striking out completely.

ETA- There's no harm in bidding some DC, as long as you bid NY as well. But I wouldn't bid more than 5 or so DC firms unless you are near the top of the class. Then, bid some of the less-grade sensitive firms and bid them #1-5 or so, because those firms are going to be VERY popular.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby jessuf » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:GULC rising 3L here.

I was between top 10% and top 5% last year. My top 20 bids were 10 NY and 10 DC. The DC firms were:

A&P, Sidley, Wilmer, Hogan, Gibson, Latham, Akin, Fried Frank, Kirkland, and W&C.

I got CBs at all of my 10 NY firms (which were the V10 minus Wachtell plus Debevoise) and cancelled many after getting the V5 offer I wanted.

I got CBs at 3 DC firms (two from my top 20 and one from which a firm I picked up an interview), and only converted one offer there. The offer was from the firm that I picked up and interview from, which is/was ranked lower than V25

Make no mistake: Getting an offer in DC is very, very hard, even at the top of GULC. If you bid all-DC, it is likely that you will strike out, unless you are #1. If you are median and want to bid DC, I would think very hard about whether you value Big Law in DC so much to risk striking out completely.

ETA- There's no harm in bidding some DC, as long as you bid NY as well. But I wouldn't bid more than 5 or so DC firms unless you are near the top of the class. Then, bid some of the less-grade sensitive firms and bid them #1-5 or so, because those firms are going to be VERY popular.


Can I ask which DC firms you had CBs at? I'm not bidding on most of the NY firms you listed because they are out of my range, but I do have Sidley, Fried Frank, and Kirkland in my top 20. Also, which firms are less-grade sensitive? I still can't figure that out.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:24 pm

Jessuf wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:GULC rising 3L here.

I was between top 10% and top 5% last year. My top 20 bids were 10 NY and 10 DC. The DC firms were:

A&P, Sidley, Wilmer, Hogan, Gibson, Latham, Akin, Fried Frank, Kirkland, and W&C.

I got CBs at all of my 10 NY firms (which were the V10 minus Wachtell plus Debevoise) and cancelled many after getting the V5 offer I wanted.

I got CBs at 3 DC firms (two from my top 20 and one from which a firm I picked up an interview), and only converted one offer there. The offer was from the firm that I picked up and interview from, which is/was ranked lower than V25

Make no mistake: Getting an offer in DC is very, very hard, even at the top of GULC. If you bid all-DC, it is likely that you will strike out, unless you are #1. If you are median and want to bid DC, I would think very hard about whether you value Big Law in DC so much to risk striking out completely.

ETA- There's no harm in bidding some DC, as long as you bid NY as well. But I wouldn't bid more than 5 or so DC firms unless you are near the top of the class. Then, bid some of the less-grade sensitive firms and bid them #1-5 or so, because those firms are going to be VERY popular.


Can I ask which DC firms you had CBs at? I'm not bidding on most of the NY firms you listed because they are out of my range, but I do have Sidley, Fried Frank, and Kirkland in my top 20. Also, which firms are less-grade sensitive? I still can't figure that out.


Honestly, I'd rather not say-- I'm pretty close to outting myself as it is. Let's just say that I had one CB with one of (A&P, Wilmer, and W&C) and two CBs with firms much lower down the food chain.

I'm not saying to bid on the NY firms I listed. Look for firms with big class sizes that aren't in the V10.

The OCS data is pretty good in figuring out what firms care relatively less about grades than others. It shouldn't be taken as literal truth (ie I have a 3.50 and Akin's median is a 3.44, therefore I will get a CB there). Rather, you should use it to compare across firms- A&P (3.64) is more grade-selective than Akin (3.44).

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:GULC rising 3L here.

I was between top 10% and top 5% last year. My top 20 bids were 10 NY and 10 DC. The DC firms were:

A&P, Sidley, Wilmer, Hogan, Gibson, Latham, Akin, Fried Frank, Kirkland, and W&C.

I got CBs at all of my 10 NY firms (which were the V10 minus Wachtell plus Debevoise) and cancelled many after getting the V5 offer I wanted.

I got CBs at 3 DC firms (two from my top 20 and one from which a firm I picked up an interview), and only converted one offer there. The offer was from the firm that I picked up and interview from, which is/was ranked lower than V25

Make no mistake: Getting an offer in DC is very, very hard, even at the top of GULC. If you bid all-DC, it is likely that you will strike out, unless you are #1. If you are median and want to bid DC, I would think very hard about whether you value Big Law in DC so much to risk striking out completely.

ETA- There's no harm in bidding some DC, as long as you bid NY as well. But I wouldn't bid more than 5 or so DC firms unless you are near the top of the class. Then, bid some of the less-grade sensitive firms and bid them #1-5 or so, because those firms are going to be VERY popular.


I would add to this by saying this is true at probably every school. I work at one of the top DC firms (i.e. Cov/Wilmer/W&C) and I've been amazed by the caliber of the students in my class. Even the folks from Harvard/Yale are on law review and have extremely impressive pre-law school experience.

Unless you are an absolute superstar with legit DC connections/reasons for being there, going all in on DC is a losing proposition.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby keg411 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:56 pm

Jessuf wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
koalatriste wrote:
i think you answered your own query. see above. i'd probably avoid JD, as i'm sure they are at the higher end of the 3.0-3.5 range.


I was top 10% + LR and didn't get a CB there last year. That doesn't mean that you have no chance at getting a job there, but I wouldn't think of JD as one of the unselective firms in DC. I wouldn't waste a high bid on them.


Ok, thanks for this!


To counterpoint, JD DC does have a history of giving CB's to high ranking transfers and that includes those from TTT's. I don't think they're a totally wasted bid. Know at least a couple of non-GULC transfers (including one former TTT) that got JD DC offers.

ETA: from my experience, if you are top 1% anywhere, you shouldn't necessarily follow the "look at low GPA firms" advice from CSO. That's more for general GULC transfers who tend to be more top 5-10% at T2's and definitely should be focusing on NYC and low-ranked firms with big classes. If you were really #1 or #2 in your class, your options are going to look significantly different. PM me and I'll send you a list of firms that are "transfer friendly".

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby fatduck » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:GULC rising 3L here.

I was between top 10% and top 5% last year. My top 20 bids were 10 NY and 10 DC. The DC firms were:

A&P, Sidley, Wilmer, Hogan, Gibson, Latham, Akin, Fried Frank, Kirkland, and W&C.

I got CBs at all of my 10 NY firms (which were the V10 minus Wachtell plus Debevoise) and cancelled many after getting the V5 offer I wanted.

I got CBs at 3 DC firms (two from my top 20 and one from which a firm I picked up an interview), and only converted one offer there. The offer was from the firm that I picked up and interview from, which is/was ranked lower than V25

Make no mistake: Getting an offer in DC is very, very hard, even at the top of GULC. If you bid all-DC, it is likely that you will strike out, unless you are #1. If you are median and want to bid DC, I would think very hard about whether you value Big Law in DC so much to risk striking out completely.

ETA- There's no harm in bidding some DC, as long as you bid NY as well. But I wouldn't bid more than 5 or so DC firms unless you are near the top of the class. Then, bid some of the less-grade sensitive firms and bid them #1-5 or so, because those firms are going to be VERY popular.


I would add to this by saying this is true at probably every school. I work at one of the top DC firms (i.e. Cov/Wilmer/W&C) and I've been amazed by the caliber of the students in my class. Even the folks from Harvard/Yale are on law review and have extremely impressive pre-law school experience.

Unless you are an absolute superstar with legit DC connections/reasons for being there, going all in on DC is a losing proposition.

does this change at all for IP?

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby rayiner » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:29 pm

fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:GULC rising 3L here.

I was between top 10% and top 5% last year. My top 20 bids were 10 NY and 10 DC. The DC firms were:

A&P, Sidley, Wilmer, Hogan, Gibson, Latham, Akin, Fried Frank, Kirkland, and W&C.

I got CBs at all of my 10 NY firms (which were the V10 minus Wachtell plus Debevoise) and cancelled many after getting the V5 offer I wanted.

I got CBs at 3 DC firms (two from my top 20 and one from which a firm I picked up an interview), and only converted one offer there. The offer was from the firm that I picked up and interview from, which is/was ranked lower than V25

Make no mistake: Getting an offer in DC is very, very hard, even at the top of GULC. If you bid all-DC, it is likely that you will strike out, unless you are #1. If you are median and want to bid DC, I would think very hard about whether you value Big Law in DC so much to risk striking out completely.

ETA- There's no harm in bidding some DC, as long as you bid NY as well. But I wouldn't bid more than 5 or so DC firms unless you are near the top of the class. Then, bid some of the less-grade sensitive firms and bid them #1-5 or so, because those firms are going to be VERY popular.


I would add to this by saying this is true at probably every school. I work at one of the top DC firms (i.e. Cov/Wilmer/W&C) and I've been amazed by the caliber of the students in my class. Even the folks from Harvard/Yale are on law review and have extremely impressive pre-law school experience.

Unless you are an absolute superstar with legit DC connections/reasons for being there, going all in on DC is a losing proposition.

does this change at all for IP?


Yes, dramatically. Not just IP either, but also relevant experience in regulated industries, etc.

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Re: Less selective DC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:30 pm

I can tell you're all from GULC or at least some school in DC but I hope someone has some insight about less selective DC firms for a non-local student. FYI I'm not going after AmLaw 50...or maybe even AmLaw 100. I'm top 33% at Emory and went straight from undergrad (ivy w/ life sciences major if that counts for anything...). I'm really interested in IP/everything tech and Internet, but know that patent prosecution is not for me. My mind has always been set on DC (my fiance is from, and works there, plus I loved my 5 substantial DC policy/legal internships from undergrad). Is a 2L SA just a dream for me? I have an interview w/ Venable & Sheppard Mullins set for early August before I go back to Atl. Also, how is recruiting from mid-size DC firms? Of course, I'm also going after NY, especially since I'm from there and spending my 1L summer working there.

(Edit for grammar)




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