No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

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TLSNYC
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No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby TLSNYC » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Long story short, currently a 1L SA but things don't seem to be going very well at the firm. Not a work product issue, but a culture issue. I don't fit well and I think it's easily recognized on both sides. The firm has horrible offer rates for 2Ls as it is, i.e. <65% the last two years. (Although it is a small firm with 4-6 SAs). If I don't get an offer to return, will that hurt me at OCI? Will firms I interview with think I suck because I didn't get an offer to return?

The current 1L SA is in a secondary market that I have no intention of returning to, so I could tell my OCI interviewer that I wasn't interested in the firm due to location, but if they ask me if I had an offer, I don't want to lie obviously.

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ben4847
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby ben4847 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:16 pm

TLSNYC wrote:Long story short, currently a 1L SA but things don't seem to be going very well at the firm. Not a work product issue, but a culture issue. I don't fit well and I think it's easily recognized on both sides. The firm has horrible offer rates for 2Ls as it is, i.e. <65% the last two years. (Although it is a small firm with 4-6 SAs). If I don't get an offer to return, will that hurt me at OCI? Will firms I interview with think I suck because I didn't get an offer to return?

The current 1L SA is in a secondary market that I have no intention of returning to, so I could tell my OCI interviewer that I wasn't interested in the firm due to location, but if they ask me if I had an offer, I don't want to lie obviously.


I dunno, but can you beg for a cold offer, and promise not to take it?

TLSNYC
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby TLSNYC » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:20 pm

ben4847 wrote:
TLSNYC wrote:Long story short, currently a 1L SA but things don't seem to be going very well at the firm. Not a work product issue, but a culture issue. I don't fit well and I think it's easily recognized on both sides. The firm has horrible offer rates for 2Ls as it is, i.e. <65% the last two years. (Although it is a small firm with 4-6 SAs). If I don't get an offer to return, will that hurt me at OCI? Will firms I interview with think I suck because I didn't get an offer to return?

The current 1L SA is in a secondary market that I have no intention of returning to, so I could tell my OCI interviewer that I wasn't interested in the firm due to location, but if they ask me if I had an offer, I don't want to lie obviously.


I dunno, but can you beg for a cold offer, and promise not to take it?


I mean, if I blow the summer and am told during my exit interview that I am not going to be asked to return, I will definitely beg for a cold offer. I just can't sleep easy resting on that idea...

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Lawquacious
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:23 pm

TLSNYC wrote:Long story short, currently a 1L SA but things don't seem to be going very well at the firm. Not a work product issue, but a culture issue. I don't fit well and I think it's easily recognized on both sides. The firm has horrible offer rates for 2Ls as it is, i.e. <65% the last two years. (Although it is a small firm with 4-6 SAs). If I don't get an offer to return, will that hurt me at OCI? Will firms I interview with think I suck because I didn't get an offer to return?

The current 1L SA is in a secondary market that I have no intention of returning to, so I could tell my OCI interviewer that I wasn't interested in the firm due to location, but if they ask me if I had an offer, I don't want to lie obviously.



Just to clarify:

1) This is where you are at now (i.e. just started a few weeks ago), and you already know you won't get an offer?

2) Do any 1Ls even get perm offers anymore? I thought 1Ls at firms these days were almost always just 'summer clerks' and not SAs, or at least that it would be extremely rare for even top students to turn a 1L firm gig into a perm offer. The fact you have a paid 1L job in the first place should make you pretty appealing imo.

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Lawquacious
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:25 pm

meh.. I apologize for being harsh.. Anyway, good luck to you.

TLSNYC
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby TLSNYC » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:27 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
TLSNYC wrote:Long story short, currently a 1L SA but things don't seem to be going very well at the firm. Not a work product issue, but a culture issue. I don't fit well and I think it's easily recognized on both sides. The firm has horrible offer rates for 2Ls as it is, i.e. <65% the last two years. (Although it is a small firm with 4-6 SAs). If I don't get an offer to return, will that hurt me at OCI? Will firms I interview with think I suck because I didn't get an offer to return?

The current 1L SA is in a secondary market that I have no intention of returning to, so I could tell my OCI interviewer that I wasn't interested in the firm due to location, but if they ask me if I had an offer, I don't want to lie obviously.



Just to clarify:

1) This is where you are at now (i.e. just started a few weeks ago), and you already know you won't get an offer?

2) Do any 1Ls even get perm offers anymore? I thought 1Ls at firms these days were almost always just 'summer clerks' and not SAs, or at least that it would be extremely rare for even top students to turn a 1L firm gig into a perm offer. The fact you have a paid 1L job in the first place should make you pretty appealing imo.


I know the odds are not in my favor for getting an offer; I overheard a conversation and my mentor advised me that I am not a good fit and I need to change certain things to increase my chances of getting an offer. Coupled with this firm's historically shitty offer rate, I'm nervous to say the least. Don't get me wrong - I'm busting my balls everyday to get an offer, but I want to know just how bad the worst case scenario is for me.

And yeah, 1Ls don't get permanent offers, but they do get invited back for a second summer.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:47 pm

I'm curious, what does that severe of a cultural issue look like? What is the firm culture and why do you not fit?

If directly asked, you could always tell the interviewer that you didn't get an offer, but the firm has a historically low offer rate (find out if "especially for 1Ls" would be true there and if so say it) and you went to that firm knowing that and are just grateful for the experience, blah blah.

r6_philly
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:56 pm

I think we are classmates right? If so, our OCI is early enough that you may get to do your screeners before you really know for sure that you don't have an offer. If you get a callback, it should be of less importance.

And you can always ask for 1. a cold offer and 2. a recommendation from your mentor. You can then tell anyone that asks that it was not a good fit and they have low offer rate, but you did good work and you have a mentor who would attest to that.

I talk to quite a few 2Ls about the offer issue. More than 2/3 told me that they were not asked about 1L SA return offers in all but 1 or 2 interviews. Don't let it stress you out if it happens. Even if you have to deal with it once or twice, there are plenty of firms that don't ask. (I can't guarantee the accuracy of this, but I trust my sources).

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:41 pm

For what it's worth, after my 1L SA, I participated in about 20-25 screening interviews for 2L OCI. I believe two interviewers asked me if I had received an offer. I doubt it will come up often, and if it does, just give an honest response.

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:24 pm

I was no-offered at my 1L firm.... and I didn't find out about it until after OCI. I got slaughtered in OCI and I think it is because of the question "why do you want to leave your current firm?" I was able to land another biglaw gig through a late resume collect. When they asked about my old firm, I said "I was told there wouldn't be a permanent position there when I finished - I'm glad they let me know now" - then I would go on and on about how wonderful the old firm was (legal markets are small and people talk). I don't think it hurt me at all - I'm at a place now that would seem way out of my league....

This summer is going much better. I'm so glad I had a place to make rookie mistakes.... If it's not working out, work hard and ask for things you're really interested in - at least that way you'll develop.

I think the expectation is different for 1L firm jobs - if they don't hire you, you're not going to be blackballed because of it. It sounds like you're going to want to look around even if they do want you to come back.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Bildungsroman » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:39 pm

Lol at this "ask for a cold offer" nonsense. Call it what it is: ask the firm if you can lie and say you got an offer, knowing they'll back you up. Obviously not a smart move, since lying in an interview is bad.

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:16 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
2) Do any 1Ls even get perm offers anymore? I thought 1Ls at firms these days were almost always just 'summer clerks' and not SAs, or at least that it would be extremely rare for even top students to turn a 1L firm gig into a perm offer. The fact you have a paid 1L job in the first place should make you pretty appealing imo.



I think your impression is more true of big city big law, but secondary market big law 1L SA's still do. Or rather, the offer is to return for 2L summer which almost always results int he perm offer, but the end result is the same.


Oops, didnt mean to anon quote: splitmuch
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:19 pm

Sorry to de-rail. This reminds me of when a firm I was a SA at offered to give me a cold offer, and explicitly told me they wouldn't report it to NALP. 6 months later they forgot they promised this.

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IAFG
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby IAFG » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to de-rail. This reminds me of when a firm I was a SA at offered to give me a cold offer, and explicitly told me they wouldn't report it to NALP. 6 months later they forgot they promised this.

I am sooo confused. Don't firms not report to NALP out of self-interest? What do you care what they tell NALP? Isn't it really a matter of what they tell other firms?

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:32 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to de-rail. This reminds me of when a firm I was a SA at offered to give me a cold offer, and explicitly told me they wouldn't report it to NALP. 6 months later they forgot they promised this.

I am sooo confused. Don't firms not report to NALP out of self-interest? What do you care what they tell NALP? Isn't it really a matter of what they tell other firms?


Well if you're going to say you received an offer, it really hurts your credibility if firms can go onto nalp and see that you, in fact, did not receive an offer. They also forgot they told us they were cold-offering us when firms called for references (so I heard from co-SAs).

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IAFG
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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby IAFG » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to de-rail. This reminds me of when a firm I was a SA at offered to give me a cold offer, and explicitly told me they wouldn't report it to NALP. 6 months later they forgot they promised this.

I am sooo confused. Don't firms not report to NALP out of self-interest? What do you care what they tell NALP? Isn't it really a matter of what they tell other firms?


Well if you're going to say you received an offer, it really hurts your credibility if firms can go onto nalp and see that you, in fact, did not receive an offer. They also forgot they told us they were cold-offering us when firms called for references (so I heard from co-SAs).

So they reported to NALP that no one got an offer? WTF. And WTF on the second point too. Fucking lawyers.

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:39 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to de-rail. This reminds me of when a firm I was a SA at offered to give me a cold offer, and explicitly told me they wouldn't report it to NALP. 6 months later they forgot they promised this.

I am sooo confused. Don't firms not report to NALP out of self-interest? What do you care what they tell NALP? Isn't it really a matter of what they tell other firms?


Well if you're going to say you received an offer, it really hurts your credibility if firms can go onto nalp and see that you, in fact, did not receive an offer. They also forgot they told us they were cold-offering us when firms called for references (so I heard from co-SAs).

So they reported to NALP that no one got an offer? WTF. And WTF on the second point too. Fucking lawyers.


It all worked out for me, so I suppose it's not a big deal.

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Re: No-offered 1L SA: Impact on OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:17 am

I was no-offered from my small 1L firm for a "lack of fit." During OCI, no one even asked me whether I'd gotten an offer. Ended up accepting a summer associate position at a much larger firm this summer, and I absolutely love it. They still haven't asked about my 1L firm.




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