HLS 2012 EIP Thread

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote: Is it true that sullcrom callbacks are really just offers. So any Harvard student with 6 or 7 Hs pretty much automatically gets an offer at SullivanCromwell? That's cool. Still ridiculous that DC firms other than W&C, Covington, Wilmer, and ArnoldPorter seemingly require better grades than SullCrom or Cravath. Are there really people with 6, 7, even 8 Hs who end up working at places like Akin Gump, Jenner, JonesDay, or Cleary DC or are these seemingly more selective DC firms drawing from a larger range of grades and selecting based on things like previous government or PI work experience?

Mmm...I have more H's than that, and I would have seriously considered Jenner had I gotten a callback there, because they have a top notch litigation department and really nice people. Cleary is also V10. I don't know where you are drawing your distinctions between firms that have a "right" to be grades selective, and firms that don't. At the end of the day, a lot of our perceptions about firms are not really based in reality, but on their own marketing. Anyway, SullCrom and Cravath also take really large summer classes, and many people with top grades go to DC, so I think they have to take people with "lower" grades if they want HLS kids at all.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know/want to speculate on how much grades matter at the callback stage for firms known to have pretty strict grade cutoffs (which I obviously fall below)? Thanks in advance.

If you fell below the grade cutoff, how did you get a callback?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Is it true that sullcrom callbacks are really just offers. So any Harvard student with 6 or 7 Hs pretty much automatically gets an offer at SullivanCromwell? That's cool. Still ridiculous that DC firms other than W&C, Covington, Wilmer, and ArnoldPorter seemingly require better grades than SullCrom or Cravath. Are there really people with 6, 7, even 8 Hs who end up working at places like Akin Gump, Jenner, JonesDay, or Cleary DC or are these seemingly more selective DC firms drawing from a larger range of grades and selecting based on things like previous government or PI work experience?

Mmm...I have more H's than that, and I would have seriously considered Jenner had I gotten a callback there, because they have a top notch litigation department and really nice people. Cleary is also V10. I don't know where you are drawing your distinctions between firms that have a "right" to be grades selective, and firms that don't. At the end of the day, a lot of our perceptions about firms are not really based in reality, but on their own marketing. Anyway, SullCrom and Cravath also take really large summer classes, and many people with top grades go to DC, so I think they have to take people with "lower" grades if they want HLS kids at all.

which DC firms tend to be filled exlusively with law review types and which are selective but more in the sense that they want a certain type of W/E rather than top grades?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know/want to speculate on how much grades matter at the callback stage for firms known to have pretty strict grade cutoffs (which I obviously fall below)? Thanks in advance.

If you fell below the grade cutoff, how did you get a callback?


Not sure, but I've been told that I'm a great interviewer...wondering if I can rely on my winning smile for offers.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Is it true that sullcrom callbacks are really just offers. So any Harvard student with 6 or 7 Hs pretty much automatically gets an offer at SullivanCromwell? That's cool. Still ridiculous that DC firms other than W&C, Covington, Wilmer, and ArnoldPorter seemingly require better grades than SullCrom or Cravath. Are there really people with 6, 7, even 8 Hs who end up working at places like Akin Gump, Jenner, JonesDay, or Cleary DC or are these seemingly more selective DC firms drawing from a larger range of grades and selecting based on things like previous government or PI work experience?

Mmm...I have more H's than that, and I would have seriously considered Jenner had I gotten a callback there, because they have a top notch litigation department and really nice people. Cleary is also V10. I don't know where you are drawing your distinctions between firms that have a "right" to be grades selective, and firms that don't. At the end of the day, a lot of our perceptions about firms are not really based in reality, but on their own marketing. Anyway, SullCrom and Cravath also take really large summer classes, and many people with top grades go to DC, so I think they have to take people with "lower" grades if they want HLS kids at all.

which DC firms tend to be filled exlusively with law review types and which are selective but more in the sense that they want a certain type of W/E rather than top grades?

I have 14 CBs... 12 in D.C. 5 Hs and interesting work experience. I have received CBs pretty much everywhere except A&P, Covington, and Gibson. I'm thinking those are more of the "law review types."

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:30 pm

Yea, my sense is that NY firms and DC firms (besides AP and Cov) are selective in different ways. NY firms are grade selective, with some requiring 7 Hs, and DC firms are often very 'fit' selective, taking people with a lot of PI or government internship/work experience. It's not that Akin etc require more Hs than Cravath or Sullcrom. That's why in the end SullCrom has more industry prestige, at least according to rankings.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote: I have 14 CBs... 12 in D.C. 5 Hs and interesting work experience. I have received CBs pretty much everywhere except A&P, Covington, and Gibson. I'm thinking those are more of the "law review types."


Covington & Gibson definitely have strict grade cut-offs (probably 6 H's), which I'm guessing is what OP meant by "law review types," though there are certainly cases where top grades and HLR do not coincide.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:35 pm

On the topic of selective DC firms, has there been movement from Wilmer or W&C? If not, any idea as to when we might hear, one way or the other?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know/want to speculate on how much grades matter at the callback stage for firms known to have pretty strict grade cutoffs (which I obviously fall below)? Thanks in advance.

If you fell below the grade cutoff, how did you get a callback?


Not sure, but I've been told that I'm a great interviewer...wondering if I can rely on my winning smile for offers.

If your grades were going to disqualify you, I don't think you would've been invited. So, definitely employ your winning smile, and don't worry about your grades as you can't do anything about them at this point anyway. You can, however, be prepared, enthusiastic, and ask insightful questions.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:On the topic of selective DC firms, has there been movement from Wilmer or W&C? If not, any idea as to when we might hear, one way or the other?

All other Wilmer offices have given CBs... not sure about DC. But I can tell you from pretty inside knowledge that Wilmer DC is not very grade selective. Takes people with 4 Hs etc and takes from pretty low schools. Very into WE and fit. Wilmer cares about your CV more than any firm prob.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:40 pm

Has SullCrom NY sent out the dings yet?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:On the topic of selective DC firms, has there been movement from Wilmer or W&C? If not, any idea as to when we might hear, one way or the other?

All other Wilmer offices have given CBs... not sure about DC. But I can tell you from pretty inside knowledge that Wilmer DC is not very grade selective. Takes people with 4 Hs etc and takes from pretty low schools. Very into WE and fit. Wilmer cares about your CV more than any firm prob.


Good to know, thanks.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:49 pm

So, how many CBs did everyone end up with, and how many are you doing? 7 here--thinking about cancelling 2.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So, how many CBs did everyone end up with, and how many are you doing? 7 here--thinking about cancelling 2.


7 here, thinking of cancelling 1 because it's the only one in the market I got a callback for(only did 2 interviews in that market) & I'm not interested in the market, and some of my other firms are in the 80-90% callback-->conversion zone.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So, how many CBs did everyone end up with, and how many are you doing? 7 here--thinking about cancelling 2.


7 here, thinking of cancelling 1 because it's the only one in the market I got a callback for(only did 2 interviews in that market) & I'm not interested in the market, and some of my other firms are in the 80-90% callback-->conversion zone.

17 callbacks, have only scheduled 7 will do the rest if I don't get an offer (highest callback -->offer rate I have is 80%)

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:22 pm

6 CBs. 2 have 90%+ cb-offer rate. I think I will cancel 2.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:28 pm

What is the etiquette on cancelling callbacks you've scheduled? I scheduled a couple after receiving my first couple of callbacks, but have since gotten a bunch more (and ones I'd much rather accept). I'd rather cancel 3 or so to free up room for incoming callback offers.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wilmer Boston, Jenner DC, Covington NY, Covington DC dings


Wilmer, Jenner emails. Covington joint mail.
Yeah, Wilmer Boston ding email. Is Boston slower this year or is it just me? (Although Wilmer was a reach regardless.)


I've already received callbacks and rejections from most of the Boston firms I interviewed with. No huge surprises based on my grades.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:04 pm

Milbank NY callback via e-mail. Interviewer AW.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I did 26 screeners. Right now it seems like I will have 6 CBs and 20 dings. I already have 15 rejections. Strange thing is though, I have 3 V5 callbacks and another callback is top 10 on vault's selectivity rankings and has been top 5. So isn't it weird to go 6 for 26 yet have 4 CBs from among the 10 most selective and grade-conscious firms. Isn't it usually the case that the same people get CBs to the most selective firms? For somebody with such a huge pile of rejections how can I explain sitting on 4 very, very desirable callbacks? Also, how do I explain the rejections? The bunch of DC rejections I get but the v50 NY and Boston firms and even the lower DC firms...? Is it really the case that firms like SullCrom, Cravath, and Davis Polk, are easier to get than firms like JonesDay, Jenner, Akin, and Cleary in DC? How can Akin Gump be more selective than Cravath... or am I just an outlier? It feels shitty to get so many rejections so I'm just trying to wrap my head around my situation.

So if you look at the EIP stats from last year, you will see that the interview: offer ratio is indeed higher (much higher, in fact) for SullCrom, Cravath, and Davis Polk than for the DC firms. I added them to my bid list for that reason.
The counterpoint is that firms that are more grade selective tend to get more grade selective applicants. I was not going to pass the SullCrom grade cutoff, so I didn't waste a bid on them. A former interviewer at SullCrom told me that they basically look only to grades and pretty much anyone who can carry on a conversation gets a callback. But (I surmise) no one who doesn't have six H gets one. So they're "safer" in a way if you have the grades, but if you don't they're just a wasted bid.

Is it true that sullcrom callbacks are really just offers. So any Harvard student with 6 or 7 Hs pretty much automatically gets an offer at SullivanCromwell? That's cool. Still ridiculous that DC firms other than W&C, Covington, Wilmer, and ArnoldPorter seemingly require better grades than SullCrom or Cravath. Are there really people with 6, 7, even 8 Hs who end up working at places like Akin Gump, Jenner, JonesDay, or Cleary DC or are these seemingly more selective DC firms drawing from a larger range of grades and selecting based on things like previous government or PI work experience?


Akin, Jenner, Jones Day, and Cleary's DC offices are all more selective than Cravath or S&C. To give you an illustration:

Wachtell interviewed 79 people, called back 14, and gave offers to 6.

Jenner DC interviewed 80, called back 16, and gave offers to 7. One of the two people who accepted won the Sears Prize.

Akin DC interviewed 59, called back 19, and gave offers to 3. The one who accepted is clerking for Wilkinson in 2013.

Cleary DC and Jones Day are less selective, but they're giving CB's and offers to significantly fewer people than either S&C or Cravath. The numbers are up on Symplicity, and they pretty clearly indicate that the tippity-top students at HLS overwhelmingly flock to DC.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:09 pm

Has anybody heard from S&C New York; Interviewer CM?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:Has anybody heard from S&C New York; Interviewer CM?
yes i have

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby englawyer » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:6 CBs. 2 have 90%+ cb-offer rate. I think I will cancel 2.


for ppl considering this...i would recommend you just "schedule" your less desirable callbacks in the later weeks (like 9/3-9/7) and cancel them once you get an offer you would prefer. 6 callbacks is reasonable, but things could still go poorly at your top choices.

better safe than sorry, and in all likelihood you will not go on those callbacks anyway. you can cancel the day of if necessary; firms do not want to waste their attorney's time on people that have a 0% chance of accepting any potential offer.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:58 am

englawyer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:6 CBs. 2 have 90%+ cb-offer rate. I think I will cancel 2.


for ppl considering this...i would recommend you just "schedule" your less desirable callbacks in the later weeks (like 9/3-9/7) and cancel them once you get an offer you would prefer. 6 callbacks is reasonable, but things could still go poorly at your top choices.

better safe than sorry, and in all likelihood you will not go on those callbacks anyway. you can cancel the day of if necessary; firms do not want to waste their attorney's time on people that have a 0% chance of accepting any potential offer.

My callback emails say that I have to pay for the flight and hotel if I cancel...?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:43 am

any news on w&c?




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