HLS 2012 EIP Thread

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You will get a schedule, but you can sometimes move around your interview slots on Symplicity if the firm is underbid. Keep in mind that this will sometimes result in getting a different interviewer (for instance, I went from doing a screener with 2 QE associates to doing a screener with an associate and Bill Urquhart after I changed my interview slot).


Well I guess that saves me from obsessing over how to 'strategically' structure my interviewing day.

And yes, when I did the spring public interest interviewing (Mass Consortium, IIRC?), you bid on employers, then if they cleared you for an interview, you picked the time. Was nice to stack them all together, then get back to class.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:33 pm

Soooo does OCS keep any data on what grades are high/median/low to get callbacks for firms? Or is all the information we get from OCS just the "Who Worked Where" spreadsheets?

GertrudePerkins
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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby GertrudePerkins » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Soooo does OCS keep any data on what grades are high/median/low to get callbacks for firms? Or is all the information we get from OCS just the "Who Worked Where" spreadsheets?
In a word, no. Or at least I've never heard of anything like that.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:46 pm

GertrudePerkins wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Soooo does OCS keep any data on what grades are high/median/low to get callbacks for firms? Or is all the information we get from OCS just the "Who Worked Where" spreadsheets?
In a word, no. Or at least I've never heard of anything like that.


I figured. What a joke. Way to not do one of the few useful things you could do, OCS.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby delusional » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
GertrudePerkins wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Soooo does OCS keep any data on what grades are high/median/low to get callbacks for firms? Or is all the information we get from OCS just the "Who Worked Where" spreadsheets?
In a word, no. Or at least I've never heard of anything like that.


I figured. What a joke. Way to not do one of the few useful things you could do, OCS.
I think that one issue could be that when firms offer only around or below median (and based on other schools that have this data, there are some), you'd be able to tell people's relative position. I think it's a cost I'd be willing to take, but I understand the philosophy.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:27 pm

OCS will never do that (the party line is that the law school doesn't record GPA until graduation, and my understanding is that the bid/interview/CB/offer data that OCS gets from firms doesn't disclose names or GPAs in any case). Also, GPA is a misleading figure at HLS because a lot of firms look at number of H's rather than top-line GPA, don't treat DS or LP grades uniformly, etc. Delusional's concern is also a legitimate one, especially when a firm calls back, offers, and takes exactly 1 HLS person (in fact, doing so might violate FERPA). I understand that more information=better, but my experience is that grades correlate only weakly to EIP success and the information wouldn't be that useful or predictive.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OCS will never do that (the party line is that the law school doesn't record GPA until graduation, and my understanding is that the bid/interview/CB/offer data that OCS gets from firms doesn't disclose names or GPAs in any case). Also, GPA is a misleading figure at HLS because a lot of firms look at number of H's rather than top-line GPA, don't treat DS or LP grades uniformly, etc. Delusional's concern is also a legitimate one, especially when a firm calls back, offers, and takes exactly 1 HLS person (in fact, doing so might violate FERPA). I understand that more information=better, but my experience is that grades correlate only weakly to EIP success and the information wouldn't be that useful or predictive.


Other schools seem to manage it fine. More information is a good thing, for everyone, imo.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby englawyer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
GertrudePerkins wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Soooo does OCS keep any data on what grades are high/median/low to get callbacks for firms? Or is all the information we get from OCS just the "Who Worked Where" spreadsheets?
In a word, no. Or at least I've never heard of anything like that.


I figured. What a joke. Way to not do one of the few useful things you could do, OCS.


there are like 10 EIP firms that won't hire an HLS median-ish student; i'll try to list:

WLRK, S+C, W+C, munger, susman, irell, keker. then a bunch of DC offices of national firms that have strong appelate etc and are thus in high demand.


if you get a few H's, your bidlist should really be somewhat aggressive with V10s etc. you have a shot at all the firms not on the list above and you might as well take it. and if you have really low grades, then you already know to be careful. the employment outcomes of 2H vs 4H are just not that different to justify tracking the data.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
englawyer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What's the deal with firms that in a previous year interviewed four people, called back one, and he didn't accept the callback? Are those just super safeties who are dying to hire a Harvard student, or is there some story there? I see three or four firms like that in NY last year, and they tend to have strange numbers all around. For example, Hunton & Williams: 9 bids, 2 interviews, 2 call back offers, both declined. What went on in those situations?


those firms are like moderately cute girls that complain about being single when its really their own fault because of overly high standards.
Seriously, though, what does it mean when a firm has 9 bids and 3 interviews? Does it mean that people cancelled their interviews? That the firm was only planning on 3 slots?

And then, when they call back all the people who interviewed and no one goes, is it safe to assume that this firm is good to use as a safety?


Some small boutique shops are very picky and only take top of the class, LR, etc. Those are the only ones I have seen with odd numbers. They don't seem to relent on their high standards either as I have seen a couple that were still looking for top 10% + LR summer associates in April (on CSM).

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:You will get a schedule, but you can sometimes move around your interview slots on Symplicity if the firm is underbid. Keep in mind that this will sometimes result in getting a different interviewer (for instance, I went from doing a screener with 2 QE associates to doing a screener with an associate and Bill Urquhart after I changed my interview slot).


How/when do you do this? After global add/drop? Are we allowed to trade slots?

And QE was underbid? Must be some strong self-selection.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:45 am

How many interviews did you guys get? I'm at 24--with 8 on Monday, and only 2 on Thursday. WTF.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:How many interviews did you guys get? I'm at 24--with 8 on Monday, and only 2 on Thursday. WTF.


29, fairly evenly spaced (still have a day with 8 though). What market? 24 seems decent to me.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How many interviews did you guys get? I'm at 24--with 8 on Monday, and only 2 on Thursday. WTF.


29, fairly evenly spaced (still have a day with 8 though). What market? 24 seems decent to me.


Yeah, 24 is good, I just wish they were spread out a little. No way I'm going to do well on 8 interviews the first day. I bid everything in Chicago I was interested in, then random firms all over to fill up the rest.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:21 am

26, all pretty evenly spread out. Only mad I didn't get a screener with WilmerHale DC, but what are you gonna do. I probably didn't have a real shot at them anyway :D

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:25 am

21 out of 31...basically the 21 I really wanted, minus 3 that I missed and am going to try to pick up in add/drop and/or through popping into suites, but I'm a little concerned that out of the "throw them on there as safeties" firms I bid, I got 0. As in, I have 2 safeties out of 21, and one of them is personality picky. Uh oh.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:29 am

25 out of 35 here. 7 on Monday and Tuesday, and the rest are spread out on the other days.

Don't like that I have so many on the first two days, but not sure I should drop anything.

- Yoshi

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby delusional » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:30 am

acrossthelake wrote:21 out of 31...basically the 21 I really wanted, minus 3 that I missed and am going to try to pick up in add/drop and/or through popping into suites, but I'm a little concerned that out of the "throw them on there as safeties" firms I bid, I got 0. As in, I have 2 safeties out of 21, and one of them is personality picky. Uh oh.

Do you not think you have a good personality?

Anyone know - how does add/drop work outside of the firms that were underbid? If someone drops an interview, and stuff opens up that way, do they email those who bid on it the way they did for SIP? Is it just finders keepers? Or is it delayed until the daily add period during the week?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby AllTheLawz » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:32 am

26 total (19 of my top 20) with 8 on Monday. Possibly dropping 5 or 6.

How on earth did Ropes & Gray end up overbid with 280 slots? Did everyone just put them in their bottom 5?

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:46 am

AllTheLawz wrote:26 total (19 of my top 20) with 8 on Monday. Possibly dropping 5 or 6.

How on earth did Ropes & Gray end up overbid with 280 slots? Did everyone just put them in their bottom 5?
It is strange, since they weren't overbid in ANY of their five offices when they interviewed individually. I can't imagine what would have changed, especially since the 280 bids was more than they needed or all the offices last year.

The only (admittedly strange) explanation might be that last year, people withheld because they didn't want to bid on a smaller pool for a particular market, whereas this year, people might think that they can take a chance on more offices so it's worth a bid. (It's an interesting thought - bidding on interviews with multiple offices can arguably be getting more value from a bid.)

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:50 am

delusional wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:21 out of 31...basically the 21 I really wanted, minus 3 that I missed and am going to try to pick up in add/drop and/or through popping into suites, but I'm a little concerned that out of the "throw them on there as safeties" firms I bid, I got 0. As in, I have 2 safeties out of 21, and one of them is personality picky. Uh oh.

Do you not think you have a good personality?

Anyone know - how does add/drop work outside of the firms that were underbid? If someone drops an interview, and stuff opens up that way, do they email those who bid on it the way they did for SIP? Is it just finders keepers? Or is it delayed until the daily add period during the week?


:lol: I hope y'all don't think I have a bad personality! Anyway, I interview fairly well just based off of mock interviews and my 1L job search, but I have 17 of those interviews in a competitive secondary market in which technically everything is a reach or reach-ich match, and only got the most competitive firms in the second market I was bidding in(have much stronger ties in the second market). Recruiters had told me which were my "safety" and which were my "match" firms in the second market, so I'm using their classification, not my own.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby expat » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:59 am

Missed Fenwick at 5...kind of surprised by that.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby GeePee » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:00 am

Okay, I've been meaning to write this post, but wanted to wait until August rolled around.

The HLS-Specific Guide to Navigating EIP
There are a few pretty unique features to HLS On-Campus Interviews. The Charles Hotel is a pretty unique place, nearly every firm has a hospitality suite, and there are a ton of cocktail parties and dinners on the week of.

If you used all 35 of your bids, you likely have somewhere between 20 and 30 interviews. Take a second to look over your interview list and make sure that you have your desired mix of "reach," "target," and "safety" firms, whatever that means. If you feel like randomness has led you astray, there are two main opportunities to fix that: as soon as the add/drop period starts, or the morning of the interview day at the Charles. Many firms will see that their schedules have filled and will add 5-10 interview slots to accommodate -- if you really want an interview, be at the hotel at 8:30 that morning and go talk up the OCS people at the desk.

Determine your bid list balance NOW. Do NOT freak out on Tuesday afternoon when you have no callbacks and your friends have 2 and panic-add 5 interviews.

NB: Firms come to HLS to hire HLS students. They do not come to HLS to peruse on the offchance someone exceptional rolls along. Remain calm. OCS will tell you that you shouldn't worry unless Thursday rolls around and you have no callbacks. They're correct. Especially in markets like SF/SV, callbacks come over the course of days and often do not come at all until several days later.

The waiting room
The big conference room in the Charles is maybe the most god-awful place known to mankind. There are some reasons to be here: they have printers, which is awesome; the add/drop table is here, which is useful; and they have food throughout the day, which can be handy at the right times. However, I would highly recommend that you do not spend too much time in the conference room. Early mornings to take your mind off things and grab breakfast are a great time to visit the waiting room, because your friends will be in the same mindset. It can also be good to waste 20 minutes of a 40 minute break between interviews. However, do NOT spend an hour straight in the waiting room. Just don't. Go far, far, far, away. One of your friends, intentionally or not, will turn a callback into theater, and it will get on your nerves. Then other people will start talking (read: complaining) about it, and that will probably get on your nerves, too. Don't be any of those people. Go preserve/regain your sanity somewhere more constructive, like at lunch or at home if you live in Harvard Square.

Hospitality Suites
Hospitality suites are concurrently one of the best and worst things about HLS EIP. They often have pretty good food, and they all have bottles of water (when you're basically talking for 20 straight minutes 5-10 times a day, plus additional time in these suites, you'll soon see why bottles of water are so necessary). Optimal use of the hospitality suite is as follows: show up 10 minutes before your interview, check in if necessary (some firms require this, others don't), strike up an interesting conversation, and head to your interview. Don't bum around too long unless you somehow meet your new soul mate. Don't feel obligated to talk to everyone in the room. Don't feel like you need to keep digging for conversation, because you're not obligated to be there. I actually think that it's easier to destroy a callback in the hospitality suite than it is to create one. Business cards are a good sign, but they'll only get you so far -- I had a couple of incredible conversations in hospitality suites during EIP last year, out of which nothing materialized. Make your presence noticed, and move on. It is NOT a second interview, but you can make it one in a bad way if you peg yourself as a bad personality fit for the firm. It turns out that this is probably a good thing for you to figure out in advance, but at the screener phase when you're trying to keep your options as open as possible, it can be difficult to keep this perspective.

Cocktail Parties/Dinners
Go to these. They're awesome. You get some drinks, eat some food, and talk to your friends. You make 100% sure to pick up your name tag if you have one. However, again, don't go overboard trying to become a networking machine. Hang out with your friends, meet a few people from the firm, and head out when you feel ready. I think the only mandatory gesture at these things is saying hello to your interviewer, because it will help them remember you. And, if you're remembered, you dramatically increase your chances at a callback. A couple of minutes of graceful conversation with your interviewer outside of the formal interview process can turn a mediocre interview into an almost-guaranteed callback. Again, don't go overboard. There is no pressure to stay in these conversations or events until you feel fried; in fact, that's probably a bad idea.

Overall Impressions
Your sanity during this week is of paramount importance. Remember, the point of an interview is to see whether or not you fit in to the firm. If your transcript/resume/writing sample aren't otherwise competitive, an interview likely won't make you. This can be sort of freeing, and if you're smart, you will let it free you. Also, remember that at a lot of places, being someone good to work with means being able to have interesting conversations that have nothing to do with law. Don't try to steer conversations back toward your resume or even toward law school and your legal aptitude if it strays elsewhere. Follow the natural flow of things and just TALK TO A PERSON. If you find yourself becoming an interviewing robot that does not seem like who you really are, step back. Cancel interviews if you have to. Leave the site and go far, far away. You do not grind through EIP week. You enjoy yourself, have interesting conversations when possible, and make good impressions. Your job is to prove yourself the person, not yourself the law student.

You are at Harvard. Just relax and be personable, and everything will be okay. Everyone here is capable of getting a firm job, just stay out of your own way and do your best to be comfortable. Don't forget that two sides will get choices during this process: they will choose you, and then you will choose them. Keep yourself open, but also don't ignore the signals that will let you know whether the firm will be a good fit for you. I basically told an interviewer last year at around the 12:00 mark that this just didn't seem like it was for me, and we spent the next 8 minutes talking about how too few students take the opportunity to inform themselves during interviews. Good luck to all of you and feel free to ask me any questions that you'd like.
Last edited by GeePee on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:16 am

I have 29 interviews total, 10 on Monday. 10 interviews seems kind of insane, but I don't want to drop anything.

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:24 am

Thanks, GeePee! <33333

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Re: HLS 2012 EIP Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:38 am

GeePee wrote:Okay, I've been meaning to write this post, but wanted to wait until August rolled around.
The HLS-Specific Guide to Navigating EIP
There are a few pretty unique features to HLS On-Campus Interviews. The Charles Hotel is a pretty unique place, nearly every firm has a hospitality suite, and there are a ton of cocktail parties and dinners on the week of.

If you used all 35 of your bids, you likely have somewhere between 20 and 30 interviews. Take a second to look over your interview list and make sure that you have your desired mix of "reach," "target," and "safety" firms, whatever that means. If you feel like randomness has led you astray, there are two main opportunities to fix that: as soon as the add/drop period starts, or the morning of the interview day at the Charles. Many firms will see that their schedules have filled and will add 5-10 interview slots to accommodate -- if you really want an interview, be at the hotel at 8:30 that morning and go talk up the OCS people at the desk.

Determine your bid list balance NOW. Do NOT freak out on Tuesday afternoon when you have no callbacks and your friends have 2 and panic-add 5 interviews.

NB: Firms come to HLS to hire HLS students. They do not come to HLS to peruse on the offchance someone exceptional rolls along. Remain calm. OCS will tell you that you shouldn't worry unless Thursday rolls around and you have no callbacks. They're correct. Especially in markets like SF/SV, callbacks come over the course of days and often do not come at all until several days later.
The waiting room

So this is harder than I thought it would be from my phone, I'll just preserve what I have and add/edit later today. Considerably more to come. Feel free to fire off questions as well, either in-thread or by PM.


Appreciate the effort, just wanted to add thought that I have NO IDEA what reaches/targets/safeties are. Staying out of competitive markets, medianish grades, maybe it's all just target?




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