2012 UVA OGI Thread

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Law Sauce
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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
5ky wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So just to be absolutely clear - I was going off of this line from KD's email

"Can you accept interviews and alternates that total more than 23? Yes. But if you end up receiving a slot for an alternate and have more than 23 on your list, you will only get interviews for your 23 top-ranked firms (assuming that all can be scheduled)."

and I accepted 23 preselects and 3 alternates. That means I will get only those 23 preselect interviews and 0 alternates, right? Should I send in an email to Career Services being like errrr, never mind about those alternates or will I just be automatically kicked off those?

- Don Draper


From a conversation with KD, if you accept 23 PS and 3 alternates, and you get alternate interviews, the process will go like this. First, CSO will call you to figure out which interviews you want to decline in order to bring you down to 23. Second, CSO will email you to do the same thing. If you don't bother to answer your phone or respond to emails, then they will take your top 23 bids, apparently irrespective of whether they're PS or alternates.

After all PS and alternates are in, if you are at 23 interviews, you will not get any lottery bids. If you're not risk-averse, or if your top bids are not long shots (i.e., they picked you as an alternate), then you might think about dropping down to 21-22 interviews.


See, that's how I thought it worked, but Sundance said he/she talked to KD and he said the opposite -- that if you accept 23 preselects, that's it, you can't take any alternates.


While I could be mistaken, I think I am correct. I'm the anon from a page or two ago who only accepted 21 PS in order to get the lottery. I have 21 PS and 3 alternates accepted. My concern was that if all three alternates came through, Symplicity would drop my lowest bid. I followed the OGI Handbook and bid a gov. position last. I would rather give up a firm interview than the gov. interview. In this scenario, I was told that I would get called or emailed. If I don't pull two alternates, my last spot or two will go to the lottery. Since my 3 alternates are ranked 1-3, I've a great chance of getting one or two of them in the lottery.


This is different from being excluded altogether if you already have 23 preselects accepted, which what I take Sundance is saying.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:34 pm

Law Sauce wrote:
This is different from being excluded altogether if you already have 23 preselects accepted, which what I take Sundance is saying.


so what that might mean is if you have 23 PS there is no point in accepting alternates?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:
This is different from being excluded altogether if you already have 23 preselects accepted, which what I take Sundance is saying.


so what that might mean is if you have 23 PS there is no point in accepting alternates?


or, more importantly, if you want any alternates to pan out, you gotta accept 22 or less preselects. if this is the way at works at least

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:39 pm

Law Sauce wrote:
This is different from being excluded altogether if you already have 23 preselects accepted, which what I take Sundance is saying.


Now that you say that, it does sound like we are talking about two different scenarios.

Anonymous User wrote:so what that might mean is if you have 23 PS there is no point in accepting alternates?


Not necessarily. From a CSO email from yesterday: "Accepting alternates cannot cause you to lose pre-selections. The system should not allow you to accrue more than 23 interviews, but there are a few permutations that could lead to this happening." When those permutations happen, then they start calling, emailing, or dropping your lowest bid.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:
This is different from being excluded altogether if you already have 23 preselects accepted, which what I take Sundance is saying.


Now that you say that, it does sound like we are talking about two different scenarios.

Anonymous User wrote:so what that might mean is if you have 23 PS there is no point in accepting alternates?


Not necessarily. From a CSO email from yesterday: "Accepting alternates cannot cause you to lose pre-selections. The system should not allow you to accrue more than 23 interviews, but there are a few permutations that could lead to this happening." When those permutations happen, then they start calling, emailing, or dropping your lowest bid.


Well it seems like there are two scenarios:

if you accept 23 PS then what sundance seems to be saying is that you cannot convert alternates.

If you accept less than 23 you can convert ANY number of alternates, and you'll get to choose between the PS and alternates you get? Or can you only choose between the alternates you get?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:
This is different from being excluded altogether if you already have 23 preselects accepted, which what I take Sundance is saying.


Now that you say that, it does sound like we are talking about two different scenarios.

Anonymous User wrote:so what that might mean is if you have 23 PS there is no point in accepting alternates?


Not necessarily. From a CSO email from yesterday: "Accepting alternates cannot cause you to lose pre-selections. The system should not allow you to accrue more than 23 interviews, but there are a few permutations that could lead to this happening." When those permutations happen, then they start calling, emailing, or dropping your lowest bid.


Well it seems like there are two scenarios:

if you accept 23 PS then what sundance seems to be saying is that you cannot convert alternates.

If you accept less than 23 you can convert ANY number of alternates, and you'll get to choose between the PS and alternates you get? Or can you only choose between the alternates you get?

Probably the latter. Otherwise, everyone with >23 PS and a bunch of attractive alternates would just pick their least favorite firms to drop down to 22, then have the luxury of seeing which alternates they convert and dropping any number of PS to take those alternates instead.

I love CS, but they have not done a perfect job of explaining this system.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:53 pm

Last year, you could drop preselects for alternates that turned to preselects.

I went in with like 17 preselects and 13 alternates, and had 6 alternates flip to preselects. I declined some of the alternates, accepted the rest, and dropped a few existing preselects to make room.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Last year, you could drop preselects for alternates that turned to preselects.

I went in with like 17 preselects and 13 alternates, and had 6 alternates flip to preselects. I declined some of the alternates, accepted the rest, and dropped a few existing preselects to make room.

Pretty disappointing that that doesn't seem to be the case this year.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby sundance95 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
5ky wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
From a conversation with KD, if you accept 23 PS and 3 alternates, and you get alternate interviews, the process will go like this. First, CSO will call you to figure out which interviews you want to decline in order to bring you down to 23. Second, CSO will email you to do the same thing. If you don't bother to answer your phone or respond to emails, then they will take your top 23 bids, apparently irrespective of whether they're PS or alternates.

After all PS and alternates are in, if you are at 23 interviews, you will not get any lottery bids. If you're not risk-averse, or if your top bids are not long shots (i.e., they picked you as an alternate), then you might think about dropping down to 21-22 interviews.


See, that's how I thought it worked, but Sundance said he/she talked to KD and he said the opposite -- that if you accept 23 preselects, that's it, you can't take any alternates.


While I could be mistaken, I think I am correct. I'm the anon from a page or two ago who only accepted 21 PS in order to get the lottery. I have 21 PS and 3 alternates accepted. My concern was that if all three alternates came through, Symplicity would drop my lowest bid. I followed the OGI Handbook and bid a gov. position last. I would rather give up a firm interview than the gov. interview. In this scenario, I was told that I would get called or emailed. If I don't pull two alternates, my last spot or two will go to the lottery. Since my 3 alternates are ranked 1-3, I've a great chance of getting one or two of them in the lottery.

Sorry all, its been a busy evening. Above anon is slightly mistaken. While normally I wouldn't directly post an email between KD and I, I don't think this is confidential information.

Kevin Donovan wrote:I must have done a poor job of explaining how our admittedly complicated system works. If you accept 22 preselects you will have all of those interviews no matter what. You will get at most one alternate. When you have reached 23, the system will stop giving you interviews. So you should never end up with 22 preselect interview and 3 alternate interviews. If you really want to know you have a chance to get your three alternates, you need to get down to 20 preselects and not accept any other alternates. You still might not get them, but that would give you the best chance. Hope that clarifies.


In other words, every preselect you accept is a guaranteed interview. Even if you accept an alternate that you bid higher than some of your accepted preselects, that alternate will NOT 'knock out' a lower ranked preselect.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:05 pm

Thank you so much for posting that. Definitely clarifies some things!

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby sundance95 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thank you so much for posting that. Definitely clarifies some things!

No worries. I'm outed as outed can be to CSO now, but I don't think they'd mind this info being out there.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:16 pm

I must be missing something, though. Under this system, I don't see any incentive to decline alternates (unless you now decide you want an alternate you bid lower over an alternate you bid higher, or don't want to work at a certain employer). You are giving up preselects to get below 23 and have spots left over for alternates to turn into preselects, right? But you don't want to risk losing those spots entirely, so why not just accept every alternate, so that in case your higher ranked alternates don't come through, you have less of a chance of simply having fewer interviews? Am I missing something, or is this the way it's supposed to be?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I must be missing something, though. Under this system, I don't see any incentive to decline alternates (unless you now decide you want an alternate you bid lower over an alternate you bid higher, or don't want to work at that employer). You are giving up preselects to get below 23 and have spots left over for alternates to turn into preselects, right? But you don't want to risk losing those spots entirely, so why not just accept every alternate, so that in case your higher ranked alternates don't come through, you have less of a chance of simply having fewer interviews?


The reason to decline alternates would be if you don't want any of your alternates more than the preselects you have, if you have 23. Since you won't get any alternates if you accept 23 preselects, theres no reason to accept any alternates.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby sundance95 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I must be missing something, though. Under this system, I don't see any incentive to decline alternates (unless you now decide you want an alternate you bid lower over an alternate you bid higher, or don't want to work at that employer). You are giving up preselects to get below 23 and have spots left over for alternates to turn into preselects, right? But you don't want to risk losing those spots entirely, so why not just accept every alternate, so that in case your higher ranked alternates don't come through, you have less of a chance of simply having fewer interviews?


The reason to decline alternates would be if you don't want any of your alternates more than the preselects you have, if you have 23. Since you won't get any alternates if you accept 23 preselects, theres no reason to accept any alternates.

Right, but if there is ONE alternate you want more than you least-wanted preselect, then your incentive is to accept ALL alternates.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I must be missing something, though. Under this system, I don't see any incentive to decline alternates (unless you now decide you want an alternate you bid lower over an alternate you bid higher, or don't want to work at a certain employer). You are giving up preselects to get below 23 and have spots left over for alternates to turn into preselects, right? But you don't want to risk losing those spots entirely, so why not just accept every alternate, so that in case your higher ranked alternates don't come through, you have less of a chance of simply having fewer interviews? Am I missing something, or is this the way it's supposed to be?

You're right. The only reason I can think of to decline alternates is if you want a chance at a lottery pick, like a few of the posters above.

Edit to clarify: this situation arises when you have some alternates you like and would take over your least favorite preselects, but still want to try to save a few spots for lottery.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:24 pm

sundance95 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I must be missing something, though. Under this system, I don't see any incentive to decline alternates (unless you now decide you want an alternate you bid lower over an alternate you bid higher, or don't want to work at that employer). You are giving up preselects to get below 23 and have spots left over for alternates to turn into preselects, right? But you don't want to risk losing those spots entirely, so why not just accept every alternate, so that in case your higher ranked alternates don't come through, you have less of a chance of simply having fewer interviews?


The reason to decline alternates would be if you don't want any of your alternates more than the preselects you have, if you have 23. Since you won't get any alternates if you accept 23 preselects, theres no reason to accept any alternates.

Right, but if there is ONE alternate you want more than you least-wanted preselect, then your incentive is to accept ALL alternates.


Ahh makes sense. I know CS has sent out tons of emails, but I hope they send out just one more before this is all done tomorrow, because what KD has said to you is NOT how I/friends understood it. I definitely understood it like what it seems to have been in previous years.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby 5ky » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:32 pm

So now it should never be the case that KD has to contact people to get them to whittle down below 23, right? I can't tell if the system shuts down immediately once you hit 23 or not. Example: person keeps 22 and 5 alternates. Once the first alternate turns to a preselect, does that mean no more alternates can? Or can they, and that is where KD will contact people? I think this system is somewhat inferior, it gives those at/near the limit a poor chance to have the opportunity to interview at the firms they most want.

Better system:

1. Cap of 20/23/25 whatever (we'll say 23).

2. Round 1: Initial preselects and alternates released. Students accept and decline preselects/alternates. You can keep up to 23 preselects and as many alternates as you want. So, you can keep 23 + 10 alternates, if your heart so desires.

3. Round 2: The trickle-down begins. Alternates turn into preselects. Each student gets a chance to look at his/her preselects and alternates-turned-preselects and choose however many they want (up to 23). This allows the student to choose the ones he/she most wants, and to leave room open for a few lottery selections if desired.

4. Round 3: Lottery. The lottery runs, and immediately ends for anyone who already has 23, or ends immediately once a person reaches 23.

Unfortunately, this might be legitimately impossible to implement, as it would require an almost one-by-one approach to each person's decisions. I think this could be remedied by allowing students at the cap to special request 2 firms no-questions-asked, and everybody else a minimum of 2 or a maximum of 5 or something.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:38 pm

5ky wrote:So now it should never be the case that KD has to contact people to get them to whittle down below 23, right? I can't tell if the system shuts down immediately once you hit 23 or not. Example: person keeps 22 and 5 alternates. Once the first alternate turns to a preselect, does that mean no more alternates can? Or can they, and that is where KD will contact people? I think this system is somewhat inferior, it gives those at/near the limit a poor chance to have the opportunity to interview at the firms they most want.

I believe the person who keeps 22 PS and 5 A-of which more than 1 turns into a PS-gets a phone call/email from CS asking which ones he wants.

If the above is true, what baffles me is this scenario: a person keeps 21 PS, 4 A, of which 3 convert into interviews. So CS has to call that person, asking him which of the 3 he wants to decline. Why can he not decline TWO if he wants to take a shot at one firm in the lottery? It's not like the schedule will have been run at that point. I really hope they send out an email explaining all this.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:39 pm

5ky wrote:So now it should never be the case that KD has to contact people to get them to whittle down below 23, right? I can't tell if the system shuts down immediately once you hit 23 or not. Example: person keeps 22 and 5 alternates. Once the first alternate turns to a preselect, does that mean no more alternates can? Or can they, and that is where KD will contact people? I think this system is somewhat inferior, it gives those at/near the limit a poor chance to have the opportunity to interview at the firms they most want.

Better system:

1. Cap of 20/23/25 whatever (we'll say 23).

2. Round 1: Initial preselects and alternates released. Students accept and decline preselects/alternates. You can keep up to 23 preselects and as many alternates as you want. So, you can keep 23 + 10 alternates, if your heart so desires.

3. Round 2: The trickle-down begins. Alternates turn into preselects. Each student gets a chance to look at his/her preselects and alternates-turned-preselects and choose however many they want (up to 23). This allows the student to choose the ones he/she most wants, and to leave room open for a few lottery selections if desired.

4. Round 3: Lottery. The lottery runs, and immediately ends for anyone who already has 23, or ends immediately once a person reaches 23.

Unfortunately, this might be legitimately impossible to implement, as it would require an almost one-by-one approach to each person's decisions. I think this could be remedied by allowing students at the cap to special request 2 firms no-questions-asked, and everybody else a minimum of 2 or a maximum of 5 or something.




I actually think that system might get rid of the need for SR for people with the cap level of interviews. Between the first and second round of accept/decline and possible lottery, it really wouldn't seem like those people would need SR. I suppose in special circumstances you might not get your 1st/2nd choice, if you actually declined to 22/21 and went through the lottery and were unlucky. But otherwise why SR if you didn't want that firm more than 23 others?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
5ky wrote:So now it should never be the case that KD has to contact people to get them to whittle down below 23, right? I can't tell if the system shuts down immediately once you hit 23 or not. Example: person keeps 22 and 5 alternates. Once the first alternate turns to a preselect, does that mean no more alternates can? Or can they, and that is where KD will contact people? I think this system is somewhat inferior, it gives those at/near the limit a poor chance to have the opportunity to interview at the firms they most want.

I believe the person who keeps 22 PS and 5 A-of which more than 1 turns into a PS-gets a phone call/email from CS asking which ones he wants.

If the above is true, what baffles me is this scenario: a person keeps 21 PS, 4 A, of which 3 convert into interviews. So CS has to call that person, asking him which of the 3 he wants to decline. Why can he not decline TWO if he wants to take a shot at one firm in the lottery?


I haven't seen any indication from what people are saying/emails that you can't decline two to be able to go through the lottery. Where are you getting that from?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
5ky wrote:So now it should never be the case that KD has to contact people to get them to whittle down below 23, right? I can't tell if the system shuts down immediately once you hit 23 or not. Example: person keeps 22 and 5 alternates. Once the first alternate turns to a preselect, does that mean no more alternates can? Or can they, and that is where KD will contact people? I think this system is somewhat inferior, it gives those at/near the limit a poor chance to have the opportunity to interview at the firms they most want.

I believe the person who keeps 22 PS and 5 A-of which more than 1 turns into a PS-gets a phone call/email from CS asking which ones he wants.

If the above is true, what baffles me is this scenario: a person keeps 21 PS, 4 A, of which 3 convert into interviews. So CS has to call that person, asking him which of the 3 he wants to decline. Why can he not decline TWO if he wants to take a shot at one firm in the lottery?


I haven't seen any indication from what people are saying/emails that you can't decline two to be able to go through the lottery. Where are you getting that from?

I'm not sure. I thought somewhere it said you couldn't decline alternates once they turn into preselects.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
5ky wrote:So now it should never be the case that KD has to contact people to get them to whittle down below 23, right? I can't tell if the system shuts down immediately once you hit 23 or not. Example: person keeps 22 and 5 alternates. Once the first alternate turns to a preselect, does that mean no more alternates can? Or can they, and that is where KD will contact people? I think this system is somewhat inferior, it gives those at/near the limit a poor chance to have the opportunity to interview at the firms they most want.

I believe the person who keeps 22 PS and 5 A-of which more than 1 turns into a PS-gets a phone call/email from CS asking which ones he wants.

If the above is true, what baffles me is this scenario: a person keeps 21 PS, 4 A, of which 3 convert into interviews. So CS has to call that person, asking him which of the 3 he wants to decline. Why can he not decline TWO if he wants to take a shot at one firm in the lottery?


I haven't seen any indication from what people are saying/emails that you can't decline two to be able to go through the lottery. Where are you getting that from?

I'm not sure. I thought somewhere it said you couldn't decline alternates once they turn into preselects.


That sort of makes sense, but if you got all 4 of the alternates you'd have to decline two, so I don't see why you could only decline them if it takes you over 23. But obviously you could be right, I have nothing from career services backing me up, just what seems logical to me.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:54 am

[the anon who hastily accepted 23 PS and 3 alts]

Thank you very much Sundance! This might be cognitive dissonance speaking, but I'm fine with my choices.

- Don Draper

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby sundance95 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:[the anon who hastily accepted 23 PS and 3 alts]

Thank you very much Sundance! This might be cognitive dissonance speaking, but I'm fine with my choices.

- Don Draper

Cool. Kd will change your choices if you ask nicely, fwiw

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:29 am

So I guess the only question not yet resolved is whether someone who accepts fewer than 23 PS, and gets enough alts to bring him over 23, gets to choose which alts to keep or just has them assigned by bid order. Right?




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