2012 UVA OGI Thread

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:49 pm

Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.


Both W&C and S&C hired non-LR (but still probably top 10%) people from the class of 2012.

If you have a 3.6-3.7, the only big firm I can imagine not giving you an interview is WLRK, who doesn't even come to OGI. Cravath, W&C, S&C, Covington (DC), and Gibson (DC) are all longshots, but still worth a low bid.

Honestly someone gunning for NY/DC/mega-prestige with a 3.65 should have a bid list pretty much identical to someone with a 3.95.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Would it be dumb for a minority (AA male) who is somewhere between top 10-15% (still waiting on one grade) to bid all DC?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.


Both W&C and S&C hired non-LR (but still probably top 10%) people from the class of 2012.

If you have a 3.6-3.7, the only big firm I can imagine not giving you an interview is WLRK, who doesn't even come to OGI. Cravath, W&C, S&C, Covington (DC), and Gibson (DC) are all longshots, but still worth a low bid.

Honestly someone gunning for NY/DC/mega-prestige with a 3.65 should have a bid list pretty much identical to someone with a 3.95.


Good info, thanks. Anyone have thoughts on where to use the last bids when you feel like you've already sort of tapped out all the places you're genuinely interested in? Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't really imagine there's 50 offices I'm super interested in, especially without doubling up cities on a few firms like GDC, Jones Day, etc.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.


Both W&C and S&C hired non-LR (but still probably top 10%) people from the class of 2012.

If you have a 3.6-3.7, the only big firm I can imagine not giving you an interview is WLRK, who doesn't even come to OGI. Cravath, W&C, S&C, Covington (DC), and Gibson (DC) are all longshots, but still worth a low bid.

Honestly someone gunning for NY/DC/mega-prestige with a 3.65 should have a bid list pretty much identical to someone with a 3.95.


Good info, thanks. Anyone have thoughts on where to use the last bids when you feel like you've already sort of tapped out all the places you're genuinely interested in? Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't really imagine there's 50 offices I'm super interested in, especially without doubling up cities on a few firms like GDC, Jones Day, etc.

Do you really have all your grades? Damn.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.


Both W&C and S&C hired non-LR (but still probably top 10%) people from the class of 2012.

If you have a 3.6-3.7, the only big firm I can imagine not giving you an interview is WLRK, who doesn't even come to OGI. Cravath, W&C, S&C, Covington (DC), and Gibson (DC) are all longshots, but still worth a low bid.

Honestly someone gunning for NY/DC/mega-prestige with a 3.65 should have a bid list pretty much identical to someone with a 3.95.


Good info, thanks. Anyone have thoughts on where to use the last bids when you feel like you've already sort of tapped out all the places you're genuinely interested in? Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't really imagine there's 50 offices I'm super interested in, especially without doubling up cities on a few firms like GDC, Jones Day, etc.

Do you really have all your grades? Damn.


And literally HOURS before they're even due. UVA profs really burning the midnight oil. Good to see.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:And literally HOURS before they're even due. UVA profs really burning the midnight oil. Good to see.

Hey now, let's cut them some slack: the later our grades are turned in, the more careful consideration and thoughtful attention we know has gone into grading our exams!

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:And literally HOURS before they're even due. UVA profs really burning the midnight oil. Good to see.

Hey now, let's cut them some slack: the later our grades are turned in, the more careful consideration and thoughtful attention we know has gone into grading our exams!


Touche.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would it be dumb for a minority (AA male) who is somewhere between top 10-15% (still waiting on one grade) to bid all DC?


Not dumb at all. You are golden. Enjoy choosing among W&C, Covington, Gibson, Wilmer, and A&P.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.


Both W&C and S&C hired non-LR (but still probably top 10%) people from the class of 2012.

If you have a 3.6-3.7, the only big firm I can imagine not giving you an interview is WLRK, who doesn't even come to OGI. Cravath, W&C, S&C, Covington (DC), and Gibson (DC) are all longshots, but still worth a low bid.

Honestly someone gunning for NY/DC/mega-prestige with a 3.65 should have a bid list pretty much identical to someone with a 3.95.


Good info, thanks. Anyone have thoughts on where to use the last bids when you feel like you've already sort of tapped out all the places you're genuinely interested in? Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't really imagine there's 50 offices I'm super interested in, especially without doubling up cities on a few firms like GDC, Jones Day, etc.


You can come pretty close to 50:

DC: W&C, Cov, Wilmer, A&P, Hogan, GDC, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, Jones Day, Steptoe, OMM, Mayer, King & Spalding, V&E, Baker Botts, Hunton & Williams (if you're interested in Antitrust or Enviro), Akin Gump,

NYC: S&C, CSM, Skadden (though if you're interested in Tax, you should go to DC), DPW, STB, Weil, Cleary, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Boies, Quinn, Fried Frank, Cahill Gordon...

Then toss in some random cities: Boston: Ropes, Foley, etc.; Chicago: Jenner, Winston, etc.; SF: MoFo, Wilson Sonsini, Cooley, etc.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone shed light on whether there are any firms/offices that would be nearly impossible for someone who is in the top 10% but not quite LR grade-on level? Specifically for my situation, I have nothing else really going for me (no connections w/ firms, lackluster undergrad and WE, etc.) outside of grades and a fairly cohesive resume for litigation.

I assume Cravath and Williams & Connolly aren't possible, but is there any where else I should cross off my list from the start?

Thanks in advance.


Both W&C and S&C hired non-LR (but still probably top 10%) people from the class of 2012.

If you have a 3.6-3.7, the only big firm I can imagine not giving you an interview is WLRK, who doesn't even come to OGI. Cravath, W&C, S&C, Covington (DC), and Gibson (DC) are all longshots, but still worth a low bid.

Honestly someone gunning for NY/DC/mega-prestige with a 3.65 should have a bid list pretty much identical to someone with a 3.95.


Good info, thanks. Anyone have thoughts on where to use the last bids when you feel like you've already sort of tapped out all the places you're genuinely interested in? Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't really imagine there's 50 offices I'm super interested in, especially without doubling up cities on a few firms like GDC, Jones Day, etc.


You can come pretty close to 50:

DC: W&C, Cov, Wilmer, A&P, Hogan, GDC, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, Jones Day, Steptoe, OMM, Mayer, King & Spalding, V&E, Baker Botts, Hunton & Williams (if you're interested in Antitrust or Enviro), Akin Gump,

NYC: S&C, CSM, Skadden (though if you're interested in Tax, you should go to DC), DPW, STB, Weil, Cleary, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Boies, Quinn, Fried Frank, Cahill Gordon...

Then toss in some random cities: Boston: Ropes, Foley, etc.; Chicago: Jenner, Winston, etc.; SF: MoFo, Wilson Sonsini, Cooley, etc.


Generally spot-on advice. You're better off avoiding bids on "random cities" like those listed above (SF, Boston, Chicago) without strong ties though. Just toss-in remaining DC/NY offices that marginally interest you to cover your bases.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:54 pm

5ky wrote:Someone asked about 1L GPA cutoffs and then edited, but here they are:

Generally, at the end of 1L:

3.75 = top 5%
3.65 = top 10%
3.48 = top 25%
3.42 = top 33%
3.3ish = median
3.18 = bottom 33%
3.11 = bottom 25%
2.95 = bottom 10%


I find myself a little below median and I'm wondering what happens for those even worse off. Knowing what can happen for those at the bottom of the class would certainly help to put things in perspective for someone with, e.g., a 3.2X. What do the bolded do? Public interest? Drop out? C-Ville Legal Aid? V20 CBs? Midlaw CBs? Shitlaw CBs (not sure this is possible, but whatevs)? Hustle for Nebraska/Iowa/Kansas biglaw? Receive transfer payments? "Full-time, long-term" (see http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415&start=175)?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby desertlaw » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Reading that thread it seems like people bidding NY to be "safe" ended up getting killed. I spoke with someone at CS who intimated the same thing. Is this the general consensus of what happened among c/o 2013?

Anyone have thoughts on this?


Depends on what you mean by "safe." Someone below median probably won't have a good chance anywhere, but NYC might be their best bet, and also maybe home flyover markets.

With my bidding list, I tried to have in each set of 10 (we had like 50 bids): 1-2 reach, 3-5 reasonable, 2-4 “safety.”

For choosing markets, 2 is the maximum. 1 is preferable, but 2 is also doable. I stayed away from interviewing at same firm/different offices because I didn’t want them to know I was looking at a different market. Not sure how much that helped or hurt me.

NYC - anyone with a 3.5 or above should have the same bidding as a 3.9, save maybe S&C/Cravath/WLRK. Anyone in the top 1/4 of the class will meet the GPA floor for most V10 in NYC. Then it's just about fit/interview.

Interview prep is just as important as bidding, if not more.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:26 am

Any 2Ls or 3Ls have advice/experience with dealing with an outlier grade? Just got hit with a B- as my last grade (in an elective I liked no less) that basically dropped me from a 3.4 to a 3.3 (My transcript reads 2A-, 5B+, 1B- for context) My plan before was to bid NY and my home secondary market, so I guess that doesn't change, though I'm still kind of reeling from it.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any 2Ls or 3Ls have advice/experience with dealing with an outlier grade? Just got hit with a B- as my last grade (in an elective I liked no less) that basically dropped me from a 3.4 to a 3.3 (My transcript reads 2A-, 5B+, 1B- for context) My plan before was to bid NY and my home secondary market, so I guess that doesn't change, though I'm still kind of reeling from it.


I am in a similar situation and may reach out to the professor to see what happened. My approach to exams was the same for all of my classes and my grades for all the others were very consistent with each other. I really don't want to even meet with this professor since I found him really irritating all semester. He also mentioned in class that he has no formal grading checklist / point system.

Is an interviewer likely to ask about an outlier grade if the student is a VLR grade-on? If a question does come up, I doubt that the best way to handle it is to go into specifics about the exam / professor / class and rather just be upbeat about it and say that you met with the professor and realized that he was looking for X and you focused on Y or something like that.

Thanks again to all the 2Ls / 3Ls that are providing advice in this thread!

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby StanleyF » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any 2Ls or 3Ls have advice/experience with dealing with an outlier grade? Just got hit with a B- as my last grade (in an elective I liked no less) that basically dropped me from a 3.4 to a 3.3 (My transcript reads 2A-, 5B+, 1B- for context) My plan before was to bid NY and my home secondary market, so I guess that doesn't change, though I'm still kind of reeling from it.


Ugh. That sucks. Last year, my last grade to be released was in the class I thought I did the absolute best in -- and was my worst grade of the year. This is what I did: E-mailed the professor a very polite note, asking if I could meet with her to talk over the exam. She left a copy of an "A" exam and a copy of my exam with her secretary so I could look them over. Once I read through my answer and the good answer, I realized I'd misunderstood a question (badly), and tanked one of the four questions entirely. So it goes.

The point is that I was prepared to tell interviewers a story: I'd gone to the professor to figure out what had gone wrong, and that I'd had a bad day and misunderstood a question and it killed me. But then no one asked.

All of my interviews were pre-selects, though, so it would probably have been different with lottery interviews. But for firms that pre-select you, they will have already concluded your grades meet their threshold, so anyone asking is probably just interested to see how you respond as an interviewee. Make sure you meet with CSO to figure out the GPA cut offs for firms, and then construct a bid strategy that gets you in the room with firms that like your GPA.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:09 am

A question about what to do between now and OGI.

I know we're advised to mail firms, but who should I be mailing if my home market is DC? I know DC is harder and in fact I want to be in NYC. Thoughts? I'm top 25% and straight through from undergrad.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:A question about what to do between now and OGI.

I know we're advised to mail firms, but who should I be mailing if my home market is DC? I know DC is harder and in fact I want to be in NYC. Thoughts? I'm top 25% and straight through from undergrad.


Try to "stretch" what you can claim as reasonable ties. Did you go to undergrad somewhere else?

If you've only ever lived in DC and Charlottesville, try to go through NALP and find any firms in DC/NoVA/Baltimore/Richmond that don't come to OGI, and mass-mail them.

One of the biggest benefits of mass-mailing in the summer is that you can come into OGI already having been one a couple callbacks, and maybe even with an offer in hand. The people I knew in class of 2012 who did that had NO pressure on them and ended up killing it at OGI, too.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A question about what to do between now and OGI.

I know we're advised to mail firms, but who should I be mailing if my home market is DC? I know DC is harder and in fact I want to be in NYC. Thoughts? I'm top 25% and straight through from undergrad.


Try to "stretch" what you can claim as reasonable ties. Did you go to undergrad somewhere else?

If you've only ever lived in DC and Charlottesville, try to go through NALP and find any firms in DC/NoVA/Baltimore/Richmond that don't come to OGI, and mass-mail them.

One of the biggest benefits of mass-mailing in the summer is that you can come into OGI already having been one a couple callbacks, and maybe even with an offer in hand. The people I knew in class of 2012 who did that had NO pressure on them and ended up killing it at OGI, too.


I did go to undergrad somewhere else, but rural, not in a city. I have checked and most of the (few) firms in the major city closest to my undergrad are coming to OGI, but I will certainly mail the rest.

Is the general thought that mailing helps take the pressure off? Would attending job fairs over the summer accomplish a similar goal?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby StanleyF » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Reading that thread it seems like people bidding NY to be "safe" ended up getting killed. I spoke with someone at CS who intimated the same thing. Is this the general consensus of what happened among c/o 2013?

Anyone have thoughts on this?


I would not try to take anything from last year's thread. A lot of people freaked out when the first pre-selects started showing up on the site, and that thread is full of panicked, mis-informed over reactions.

NYC has the biggest summer classes (by far) and is where most of the jobs are. I think most students bid on at least a few NYC firms for this reason. I don't know anyone who got "killed" by bidding NYC firms, and I know a few who were hoping for D.C. but got no-offered there and ended up in NYC.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:33 am

Did you guys get a sense of whether it was harder to land a gig based on litigation or transactional preference? I'm in the 3.25-3.28 range. My pre-LS WE would lean pretty heavily towards transactional, but my summer gig is litigation-centric. Different aspects of my personality are suited towards each discipline and I'm really trying to figure out which one I'm going to express a preference for. The one that will give me a better shot at landing a SA spot is probably pretty relevant to that decision making process.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby 5ky » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:Did you guys get a sense of whether it was harder to land a gig based on litigation or transactional preference? I'm in the 3.25-3.28 range. My pre-LS WE would lean pretty heavily towards transactional, but my summer gig is litigation-centric. Different aspects of my personality are suited towards each discipline and I'm really trying to figure out which one I'm going to express a preference for. The one that will give me a better shot at landing a SA spot is probably pretty relevant to that decision making process.


I don't think it particularly matters, although if the eurozone collapses, probably not corporate/transactional.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby 5ky » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A question about what to do between now and OGI.

I know we're advised to mail firms, but who should I be mailing if my home market is DC? I know DC is harder and in fact I want to be in NYC. Thoughts? I'm top 25% and straight through from undergrad.


Try to "stretch" what you can claim as reasonable ties. Did you go to undergrad somewhere else?

If you've only ever lived in DC and Charlottesville, try to go through NALP and find any firms in DC/NoVA/Baltimore/Richmond that don't come to OGI, and mass-mail them.

One of the biggest benefits of mass-mailing in the summer is that you can come into OGI already having been one a couple callbacks, and maybe even with an offer in hand. The people I knew in class of 2012 who did that had NO pressure on them and ended up killing it at OGI, too.


I did go to undergrad somewhere else, but rural, not in a city. I have checked and most of the (few) firms in the major city closest to my undergrad are coming to OGI, but I will certainly mail the rest.

Is the general thought that mailing helps take the pressure off? Would attending job fairs over the summer accomplish a similar goal?


Mailing/job fairs are very good ideas, although they will only take the pressure off if you actually get something out of it. I'll second going through NALP and finding all DC/Nova/Baltimore/Richmond/area firms that aren't coming to OGI and applying to them. You can do the same thing for NYC firms that aren't coming to OGI.

Not all firms from DC/NYC come to OGI, so if you cross reference lists, you can mail those that are not coming. Also, nothing is stopping you from mass mailing firms in cities to which you don't have ties, although the chances of hitting something are lower. But if you're medianish + below, that kind of hustling just might save your ass. It only takes one.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby 5ky » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any 2Ls or 3Ls have advice/experience with dealing with an outlier grade? Just got hit with a B- as my last grade (in an elective I liked no less) that basically dropped me from a 3.4 to a 3.3 (My transcript reads 2A-, 5B+, 1B- for context) My plan before was to bid NY and my home secondary market, so I guess that doesn't change, though I'm still kind of reeling from it.


I am in a similar situation and may reach out to the professor to see what happened. My approach to exams was the same for all of my classes and my grades for all the others were very consistent with each other. I really don't want to even meet with this professor since I found him really irritating all semester. He also mentioned in class that he has no formal grading checklist / point system.

Is an interviewer likely to ask about an outlier grade if the student is a VLR grade-on? If a question does come up, I doubt that the best way to handle it is to go into specifics about the exam / professor / class and rather just be upbeat about it and say that you met with the professor and realized that he was looking for X and you focused on Y or something like that.

Thanks again to all the 2Ls / 3Ls that are providing advice in this thread!


It's possible both of you will get asked about the outlier grade, though unlikely (more unlikely for a VLR grade on). If your grades are 3.7+, nobody is going to care that you got a B in International Law or Property or whatever. I guess it's more likely for the first person, but it's safe to say if you do get asked about it, it probably won't be by a majority of firms.

The bolded is probably the best way to go about it.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby 5ky » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:44 am

desertlaw wrote:

Interview prep is just as important as bidding, if not more.


+1. Practice practice practice.




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