2012 UVA OGI Thread

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:58 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jawsthegreat wrote:If you have a 3.5 and ties that are visible on your resume or are articulable in a cover letter, to a secondary market BID THESE LAST. You are going to get preselected. Your higher bids will be much better suited on NYC firms that are gonna get 100 bids.

When you say secondary market, are you including SF/SV? 3.7 here, significant ties. Trying to figure out how to bid the Bay Area, getting to the Bay is my top choice. Thx in advance.


Bro, you have a 3.7. Just bid on whatever the hell you want in whatever order you want. :roll:

Quoted anon. Sorry, didn't realize 3.7s weren't allowed to ask questions ITT. :roll:

Anyone have a useful response? When jaws mentions secondary markets, is SF included in that or are we talking Nashville, St. Louis, etc? Can I risk using lower bids on SF in order to use some higher bids on, say, a few DC firms?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jawsthegreat wrote:If you have a 3.5 and ties that are visible on your resume or are articulable in a cover letter, to a secondary market BID THESE LAST. You are going to get preselected. Your higher bids will be much better suited on NYC firms that are gonna get 100 bids.

When you say secondary market, are you including SF/SV? 3.7 here, significant ties. Trying to figure out how to bid the Bay Area, getting to the Bay is my top choice. Thx in advance.


Bro, you have a 3.7. Just bid on whatever the hell you want in whatever order you want. :roll:

Quoted anon. Sorry, didn't realize 3.7s weren't allowed to ask questions ITT. :roll:

Anyone have a useful response? When jaws mentions secondary markets, is SF included in that or are we talking Nashville, St. Louis, etc? Can I risk using lower bids on SF in order to use some higher bids on, say, a few DC firms?


I know someone who got SF without any ties whatsoever and a 3.5. I think you're in good shape, even if you bid SF firms low. There aren't that many people who go to SF from UVA anyway, so I don't really know what you're looking for other than a few anecdotes. No one, other than Career Services, has a list of everyone who's gone to SF from UVA over the past few years.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know someone who got SF without any ties whatsoever and a 3.5. There aren't that many people who go to SF from UVA anyway, so I don't really know what you're looking for other than a few anecdotes. I think you're in good shape, even if you bid SF firms low. No one, other than Career Services, has a list of everyone who's gone to SF from UVA over the past few years.

ty. fair point, but given the absence of hard data, i'll take anecdotes

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Are PW and Cleary really more selective than DPW, Skadden, Debevoise, Weil, Simpson?


In terms of grades, yes. DPW is probably the most selective of those firms in terms of fit, but they will hire into the 3.4s and 3.5s, whereas I haven't heard of Paul Weiss/Debevoise/Cleary going below 3.60. PW/Deb/Cleary are definitely more grade snobby at UVA than DPW/Skadden/Weil/Simpson.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:09 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Are PW and Cleary really more selective than DPW, Skadden, Debevoise, Weil, Simpson?


In terms of grades, yes. DPW is probably the most selective of those firms in terms of fit, but they will hire into the 3.4s and 3.5s, whereas I haven't heard of Paul Weiss/Debevoise/Cleary going below 3.60. PW/Deb/Cleary are definitely more grade snobby at UVA than DPW/Skadden/Weil/Simpson.

Very helpful. TYVM.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Are PW and Cleary really more selective than DPW, Skadden, Debevoise, Weil, Simpson?


In terms of grades, yes. DPW is probably the most selective of those firms in terms of fit, but they will hire into the 3.4s and 3.5s, whereas I haven't heard of Paul Weiss/Debevoise/Cleary going below 3.60. PW/Deb/Cleary are definitely more grade snobby at UVA than DPW/Skadden/Weil/Simpson.

Very helpful. TYVM.


Just a word of caution: don't take what I, or any 3L/2L says as gospel. I did OGI two years ago. Things may have changed. K-Don and co. should still be your go-to sources.

I am simply basing my opinions on 1) what K-Don told me two years ago, 2) my experience with grades in that 3.4-3.6 range (which firms seemed genuinely interested and which ones effectively laughed me out of the interview room), and 3) the experiences of people I know with similar grades.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Meerkat Manor » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:13 pm

Yo Anons, just get alts!

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby battle_tested » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:40 pm

I have a 3.24. Even after I bid all the firms coming from the three secondary markets where I have ties, I still have 25 bids left. Where would be the best place for me to use those bids?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Quoted anon. Sorry, didn't realize 3.7s weren't allowed to ask questions ITT. :roll:

Anyone have a useful response? When jaws mentions secondary markets, is SF included in that or are we talking Nashville, St. Louis, etc? Can I risk using lower bids on SF in order to use some higher bids on, say, a few DC firms?


It's generally understood that NYC, DC, LA, SF/SV, and Chicago are the "primary markets." If only because they are the five biggest legal markets. Markets like Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, and Atlanta really aren't much smaller than SF/SV.

If you have a 3.7 and your first choice is to work in SF/SV, then bid those firms at the top. You don't need to game the system. Bid on the firms in your order of preference. You're probably going to get more preselects than you can use, anyway.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:56 pm

3.46 checking in...bid strategy for DC? I have strong ties to a secondary market, but prefer DC to NYC :)

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:07 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Quoted anon. Sorry, didn't realize 3.7s weren't allowed to ask questions ITT. :roll:

Anyone have a useful response? When jaws mentions secondary markets, is SF included in that or are we talking Nashville, St. Louis, etc? Can I risk using lower bids on SF in order to use some higher bids on, say, a few DC firms?


It's generally understood that NYC, DC, LA, SF/SV, and Chicago are the "primary markets." If only because they are the five biggest legal markets. Markets like Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, and Atlanta really aren't much smaller than SF/SV.

If you have a 3.7 and your first choice is to work in SF/SV, then bid those firms at the top. You don't need to game the system. Bid on the firms in your order of preference. You're probably going to get more preselects than you can use, anyway.

tyft

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby StanleyF » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:57 pm

Just because people start throwing around that S&C or DPW is really "selective," don't start worrying about which firm you work for when putting together bids. OGI is about 1) getting a job and, 2) finding a firm that seems to fit you best (if you have that luxury).

Every firm is basically the same. It will represent big, corporate clients, demand that you work a lot of hours, and pay you well.

But unless you are applying to the very few firms that pay above market (Quinn/ Boies/ Wachtell/ Willams&Connolly jump to mind), they will all pay you exactly the same. So if you get a job at super prestigious Cravath, guess what? You will be guaranteed to make the same as most of your classmates. And maybe less. Why? Cravath sets the bonus level every year. Almost all firms will copy it, but a few will beat it. So while the hallways at Cravath may be roaming with unicorns and leprechauns, most firms pay exactly the same, and some are guaranteed to pay more.

So don't stress about which law firm is perceived as more "elite." Just try to get a job with a firm where you think you might get along with the people who work there.

And for those who have asked questions about litigation vs. corporate, most firms do both, and most firms will expect you to try both during your summer. If you tell them that you feel really strongly about one or the other, it probably won't hurt your chances, but it probably won't help them, either. (This obviously doesn't apply if you are interviewing with an all-litigation firm).

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby RVP11 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:01 pm

StanleyF wrote:Just because people start throwing around that S&C or DPW is really "selective," don't start worrying about which firm you work for when putting together bids. OGI is about 1) getting a job and, 2) finding a firm that seems to fit you best (if you have that luxury).

Every firm is basically the same. It will represent big, corporate clients, demand that you work a lot of hours, and pay you well.

But unless you are applying to the very few firms that pay above market (Quinn/ Boies/ Wachtell/ Willams&Connolly jump to mind), they will all pay you exactly the same. So if you get a job at super prestigious Cravath, guess what? You will be guaranteed to make the same as most of your classmates. And maybe less. Why? Cravath sets the bonus level every year. Almost all firms will copy it, but a few will beat it. So while the hallways at Cravath may be roaming with unicorns and leprechauns, most firms pay exactly the same, and some are guaranteed to pay more.

So don't stress about which law firm is perceived as more "elite." Just try to get a job with a firm where you think you might get along with the people who work there.

And for those who have asked questions about litigation vs. corporate, most firms do both, and most firms will expect you to try both during your summer. If you tell them that you feel really strongly about one or the other, it probably won't hurt your chances, but it probably won't help them, either. (This obviously doesn't apply if you are interviewing with an all-litigation firm).


Generally I agree with your sentiment. Those going to mega-elite firms will then claim "exit options." When, to where, and for how much? They don't know. They are just people who believe that Vault rank is directly related to how "good" the exit options are. Otherwise they're at a sweatshop of a law firm in a high cost-of-living city for no tangible gain, and the entire world starts to fold in on itself, or something.

You sound kinda mad, though.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby desertlaw » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:45 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Are PW and Cleary really more selective than DPW, Skadden, Debevoise, Weil, Simpson?


In terms of grades, yes. DPW is probably the most selective of those firms in terms of fit, but they will hire into the 3.4s and 3.5s, whereas I haven't heard of Paul Weiss/Debevoise/Cleary going below 3.60. PW/Deb/Cleary are definitely more grade snobby at UVA than DPW/Skadden/Weil/Simpson.


I'd put Debevoise with Skadden/DPW/Simpson, not with PW and Cleary, from my own experience last year.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby StanleyF » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:19 am

RVP11 wrote:
You sound kinda mad, though.


Ha! Not mad, just wanted to make clear that those "don't even bother with DPW or S&C" posts are good advice based on GPA, but no one should interpret that as meaning they will be out of the OGI running, or that their experience at those firms would be different than at some other big law firm. I should add that, if you can be sure that your firm isn't going to fold between the time it makes you an offer and the start of summer, that's good, too. Not sure what questions you could ask, though. Interviewer: "Any questions about the firm?" Interviewee: "Yes. Have you over leveraged your firm by over-paying superstars? And are you still going to be in business in June?"

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:22 pm

Two questions:
1. Multiple Skadden offices are top choices for me (3.6). Should I stick to bidding only one or will bidding two give me better chance of getting one? My reasons for wanting to go to one are totally opposite to reasons for wanting to be in the other, so I'm worried if it is the same interviewer or committee.
2. Does anyone have any experiences with NYC firms that are great places to work for people who are interested in different types of transactional work? I am trying not to think only in terms of Vault rankings because all the firms have similar clients, hours, and pay, but at this point there is not a lot else to rely on. (Does anyone know or have SAed in particular practice groups that are team-oriented, have great partners, or are otherwise good places to work?)

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:49 pm

Same as 1. above for Gibson Dunn.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:23 pm

My information might be dated, but two years ago:

Skadden brought completely different people for DC and NY. Aside from having interviewing rooms near each other, it was almost as if they were two separate firms. If this year, as was the case two years ago, Skadden DC and NY are listed as two separate bids, you will interview with different people if you get both interviews. Interviewing with both offices probably won't harm your chances.

I believe Gibson brings three sets of interviewers: one for NY, one for DC, and one for California/Texas. With Gibson I think you only want to interview for one of the offices.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:47 pm

As someone trying for NYC Corp. with a 3.5, should I just bid all the NY V15 (minus the super selective ones) in my top 10 and hope to get them via lottery if they don't PS me? Really have no idea what I'm doing bidding strategy-wise.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As someone trying for NYC Corp. with a 3.5, should I just bid all the NY V15 (minus the super selective ones) in my top 10 and hope to get them via lottery if they don't PS me? Really have no idea what I'm doing bidding strategy-wise.


+1. I've been trying to break firms down into reaches and targets, and I've knocked out Wachtell, S&C, and Cravath. Are all the other top v20 fair game or are there more firms besides those three who historically don't reach below 3.6?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby desertlaw » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As someone trying for NYC Corp. with a 3.5, should I just bid all the NY V15 (minus the super selective ones) in my top 10 and hope to get them via lottery if they don't PS me? Really have no idea what I'm doing bidding strategy-wise.


+1. I've been trying to break firms down into reaches and targets, and I've knocked out Wachtell, S&C, and Cravath. Are all the other top v20 fair game or are there more firms besides those three who historically don't reach below 3.6?


ya, that's the right approach. The rest of the V10-20 are within your range other than the firms you just listed. Lottery and alternate will be your biggest fan.

I'd mass-mail your home market, try to get callbacks there before OGI (and maybe offer), then come into OGI with less pressure and kill your NYC interviews.

To the people wanting multiple Skadden/Gibson offices - why can't you just choose 1 at this point? Might look suspicious if you are interviewing in NYC and LA, but maybe not? I think as RVP mentioned, Gibson would care more than Skadden probably.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:19 pm

On the subject of Gibson: if you interview with them, be ready for them to open the interview with "so what do you want to know about Gibson Dunn?" They are weird like that.

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:26 pm

Meerkat Manor wrote:Yo Anons, just get alts!


Done.. hopefully it will eventually keep down some of the confusion of the 100 anon's in this thread.

Anonymous User wrote:As someone trying for NYC Corp. with a 3.5, should I just bid all the NY V15 (minus the super selective ones) in my top 10 and hope to get them via lottery if they don't PS me? Really have no idea what I'm doing bidding strategy-wise.


Same exact situation. 3.5. Within the top 10 is there any specific order or methodology I should employ to order them?

Anonymous User wrote:
+1. I've been trying to break firms down into reaches and targets, and I've knocked out Wachtell, S&C, and Cravath. Are all the other top v20 fair game or are there more firms besides those three who historically don't reach below 3.6?


I'm registered for a large fair pre-OCI. I haven't found out exactly what my schedule is yet, but assuming that I get some interviews in NYC then there aren't enough firms in NYC to fill my 50 bid slots. With a 3.5 would it be better to bid S&C and Cravath or throw bids at DC (which is my home market)?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Reinschmicker » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:44 pm

RVP11 wrote:On the subject of Gibson: if you interview with them, be ready for them to open the interview with "so what do you want to know about Gibson Dunn?" They are weird like that.


Is this true about all their interviewers from each office?

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Re: 2012 UVA OGI Thread

Postby Morgan12Oak » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:45 pm

I know a couple 3.5 people who got absolutely killed bidding all NY (even non-selective ones) in pre-select, but after the alternates and lottery ran then they ended up fine.

So just remember that for you 3.5'ers going NY. Don't freak out after the PS stage. People at 3.6 killed NY in pre-select. Thats where a lot of the line came last year with NY from experiences.




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