2012 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Is the general consensus that, if we have more than 23 PS, we should accept 23 PS? I'm thinking about declining my way down to 20 or 21 (mostly want to ditch the secondary market firms that pay below market and don't really have practices that interest me much), and then hoping to get some of the firms I'm most interested in via the lottery, as alternates, or with special requests. Terrible idea? I'm somewhere between top 20-25%, non URM, WE.

I don't think that's the consensus, no. It probably depends somewhat on your bid list. Did you strike out on your top ranked firms? Are they the type of firms that most people will have ranked really highly? I don't think it's all that risky to drop one or two firms, particularly when you are top 25%, if you're a lock to get one or two via lottery.

Okay, yeah I was just taking that from Donovan's "bird in the hand" reference. I got 3 alternates and 3 non-invites in my top 6 (including non-invite on top firm), so I guess I did strike out on my top firms, yeah. I also have about 15 alternates, so if I drop down to 20 PS, I figure (hope) at least a few of those will turn into PS if I don't get anything in the lottery. And then even if not, hopefully could pick up more via special request. Or maybe I have this wrong... I'm kind of confused by the timing of this system.

Also, can special requests take you over the 23 limit? Say I drop down to 22, get one via lottery - can I no longer use special requests?

[dixon02]

Is the general consensus that, if we have more than 23 PS, we should accept 23 PS? I'm thinking about declining my way down to 20 or 21 (mostly want to ditch the secondary market firms that pay below market and don't really have practices that interest me much), and then hoping to get some of the firms I'm most interested in via the lottery, as alternates, or with special requests. Terrible idea? I'm somewhere between top 20-25%, non URM, WE.

I don't think that's the consensus, no. It probably depends somewhat on your bid list. Did you strike out on your top ranked firms? Are they the type of firms that most people will have ranked really highly? I don't think it's all that risky to drop one or two firms, particularly when you are top 25%, if you're a lock to get one or two via lottery.

Okay, yeah I was just taking that from Donovan's "bird in the hand" reference. I got 3 alternates and 3 non-invites in my top 6 (including non-invite on top firm), so I guess I did strike out on my top firms, yeah. I also have about 15 alternates, so if I drop down to 20 PS, I figure (hope) at least a few of those will turn into PS if I don't get anything in the lottery. And then even if not, hopefully could pick up more via special request. Or maybe I have this wrong... I'm kind of confused by the timing of this system.

Also, can special requests take you over the 23 limit? Say I drop down to 22, get one via lottery - can I no longer use special requests?

You are allowed to accept a total of PS/alternates that exceeds 23. If you do and you are over 23 once the alternates come in, then they take your 23 highest ranked and automatically decline the others.

As for special requests, I believe the word is that they are much more hesitant to grant them to people who have as many interviews as you will. I believe an earlier poster said that if you lobby KD he might give you one, but you're unlikely to get much more than that.

Sounds like you can safely decline a few if you want as you'll likely pick up a few through alternates/lottery. That said (and this is just a guess), I would assume the type of firms that someone in the top 25% has ranked at the top of their bid list are unlikely to receive a lot of alternates because people don't turn those firms down very often. Upper classmen, feel free to correct me if that's not right.

[Anonymous User]

Is the general consensus that, if we have more than 23 PS, we should accept 23 PS? I'm thinking about declining my way down to 20 or 21 (mostly want to ditch the secondary market firms that pay below market and don't really have practices that interest me much), and then hoping to get some of the firms I'm most interested in via the lottery, as alternates, or with special requests. Terrible idea? I'm somewhere between top 20-25%, non URM, WE.

I don't think that's the consensus, no. It probably depends somewhat on your bid list. Did you strike out on your top ranked firms? Are they the type of firms that most people will have ranked really highly? I don't think it's all that risky to drop one or two firms, particularly when you are top 25%, if you're a lock to get one or two via lottery.

Okay, yeah I was just taking that from Donovan's "bird in the hand" reference. I got 3 alternates and 3 non-invites in my top 6 (including non-invite on top firm), so I guess I did strike out on my top firms, yeah. I also have about 15 alternates, so if I drop down to 20 PS, I figure (hope) at least a few of those will turn into PS if I don't get anything in the lottery. And then even if not, hopefully could pick up more via special request. Or maybe I have this wrong... I'm kind of confused by the timing of this system.

Also, can special requests take you over the 23 limit? Say I drop down to 22, get one via lottery - can I no longer use special requests?

You are allowed to accept a total of PS/alternates that exceeds 23. If you do and you are over 23 once the alternates come in, then they take your 23 highest ranked and automatically decline the others.

As for special requests, I believe the word is that they are much more hesitant to grant them to people who have as many interviews as you will. I believe an earlier poster said that if you lobby KD he might give you one, but you're unlikely to get much more than that.

Sounds like you can safely decline a few if you want as you'll likely pick up a few through alternates/lottery. That said (and this is just a guess), I would assume the type of firms that someone in the top 25% has ranked at the top of their bid list are unlikely to receive a lot of alternates because people don't turn those firms down very often. Upper classmen, feel free to correct me if that's not right.

Wait so once the alternates are run, say you get 3 new interviews but have to decline 2 due to being over the limit. Do you not get to choose which one you accept? That seems weird.

[Anonymous User]

How likely is it to get an interview with hogan lovells as an alternate?

[Anonymous User]

So is the general wisdom that you should accept alternates at firms with larger class sizes over preselects at firms with smaller class sizes? If an alternate turns into a PS, do you have almost as good a chance of converting as if it were a PS initially?

I am this anon, bumping my question from two pages ago. When I say "over," I mean accepting alternates that you ranked more highly even though if you get them, that might override preselects that you ranked lower, because those alternates have much larger class sizes. Relatedly, do firms rank their alternates, or is that conducted in a lottery-type fashion?

[dixon02]

Wait so once the alternates are run, say you get 3 new interviews but have to decline 2 due to being over the limit. Do you not get to choose which one you accept? That seems weird.

I believe that's right, based on the handbook:

Can you accept interviews and alternates that total more than 23?

Yes. But if you end up receiving a slot for an alternate and have more than 23 on your list, you will only get interviews for your 23 top‐ranked firms (assuming that all can be scheduled).

[5ky]

Okay, this is important, guys. Unless they've changed things from last year:

1. You can accept the maximum of preselects and then as many alternates as you want on top of that. Example: if you have 27 preselects and 5 alternates, you can take 23 preselects and 7 alternates. DO NOT decline preselects just so you can take alternates.

From last year:

A number of people have asked about strategy for and effect of accepting or declining alternate slots. Here are a few points to supplement what is in the Handbook. You cannot accept more than 20 pre-select interviews. You can accept a combined total of more than 20 pre-selections plus alternates, but you cannot end up with more than 20 interviews. Our formal policy is that if, through either of these avenues, you receive more than 20 interviews, we have the right to cut you to 20 by eliminating the ones that were lowest on your bid list. From a practical standpoint, however, I never do this without attempting to reach the student to get input. As long as I can easily reach you during the scheduling period (next Thursday through Saturday), we should not have a problem with adjusting your interview list. You will just need to be prepared to make quick decisions about what will go if you exceed 20.

2. Last year, the OGI handbook was ambiguous on whether a person at the interview limit could preselect. I was given a bit of pushback, but ultimately was allowed to special request two firms (both of which were "reaches" and firms that career services was not very concerned would have high demand in the population at large). So, I would be hesitant to decline a preselect just so you could special request a firm -- if you asked KD, he might give you permission for one firm.

[5ky]

How likely is it to get an interview with Hogan Lovells as an alternate?

These type of questions cannot be answered. It just comes down to how many (if any) people decline a preselect with Firm XYZ.

So is the general wisdom that you should accept alternates at firms with larger class sizes over preselects at firms with smaller class sizes? If an alternate turns into a PS, do you have almost as good a chance of converting as if it were a PS initially?

I am this anon, bumping my question from two pages ago. When I say "over," I mean accepting alternates that you ranked more highly even though if you get them, that might override preselects that you ranked lower, because those alternates have much larger class sizes. Relatedly, do firms rank their alternates, or is that conducted in a lottery-type fashion?

1. See my post above. Alternates + preselects can take you over 23. DO NOT decline a preselect in order to accept an alternate.
2. I did not find a practical difference between preselects and alternates that turned into preselects, I performed comparably in both. My advice: consider them both excellent chances of callbacks with a good interview.
3. I presume firms ranks their alternates, but do not know for sure.

Wait so once the alternates are run, say you get 3 new interviews but have to decline 2 due to being over the limit. Do you not get to choose which one you accept? That seems weird.

See email from KD last year, which is above.

[A Swift]

Very disappointed there is not more panic.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, this is important, guys. Unless they've changed things from last year:

1. You can accept the maximum of preselects and then as many alternates as you want on top of that. Example: if you have 27 preselects and 5 alternates, you can take 23 preselects and 7 alternates. DO NOT decline preselects just so you can take alternates.

From last year:

A number of people have asked about strategy for and effect of accepting or declining alternate slots. Here are a few points to supplement what is in the Handbook. You cannot accept more than 20 pre-select interviews. You can accept a combined total of more than 20 pre-selections plus alternates, but you cannot end up with more than 20 interviews. Our formal policy is that if, through either of these avenues, you receive more than 20 interviews, we have the right to cut you to 20 by eliminating the ones that were lowest on your bid list. From a practical standpoint, however, I never do this without attempting to reach the student to get input. As long as I can easily reach you during the scheduling period (next Thursday through Saturday), we should not have a problem with adjusting your interview list. You will just need to be prepared to make quick decisions about what will go if you exceed 20.

2. Last year, the OGI handbook was ambiguous on whether a person at the interview limit could preselect. I was given a bit of pushback, but ultimately was allowed to special request two firms (both of which were "reaches" and firms that career services was not very concerned would have high demand in the population at large). So, I would be hesitant to decline a preselect just so you could special request a firm -- if you asked KD, he might give you permission for one firm.

Oh okay, the bolded above answers my question. That is awesome of them.

Edit: and that include alternates AND lottery it looks like, right? And also meaning, assuming you're reachable by phone, there is literally no reason to decline an alternate.

[5ky]

No. If you have 23 interviews before the lottery starts, you will not participate in the lottery.

[Anonymous User]

No. If you have 23 interviews before the lottery starts, you will not participate in the lottery.

The handbook says alternates and lottery happen at the same time...?

My understanding: we accept/decline PS/alternates by 8/1.

8/2 - 8/5, alternates are selected and the lottery is run. KD will call students who WERE below the 23 max, but whom the lottery/alternate process causes to exceed 23 interviews, and will allow those students to select which alternates/lottery slots they want in order to hit the 23 max. Is that wrong?

[5ky]

No. If you have 23 interviews before the lottery starts, you will not participate in the lottery.

The handbook says alternates and lottery happen at the same time...?

I believe that technically the alternates are promoted to preselects before the lottery. Last year it was described to us as the follows:

The lottery is a little different. If you are at or above 20 scheduled interviews, then the lottery will not assign you more. If you are hopeful of getting a lottery selection, you need to leave room for it. The count is made after the promotion of alternates and you will not know how many alternates you have gotten until after the entire scheduling process is completed.

So, if you have 20 preselects and accept 4 alternates, if all 4 of your alternates become preselects (somewhat unlikely, but possible), you would not participate in the lottery.

e: Also, the lottery will never put you over the limit. So if you have 20 preselect and have 2 alternates turn into preselects, you will participate in the lottery, but will either get 1 or 0 additional interviews, it will never give you more than that.

[Anonymous User]

No. If you have 23 interviews before the lottery starts, you will not participate in the lottery.

The handbook says alternates and lottery happen at the same time...?

I believe that technically the alternates are promoted to preselects before the lottery. Last year it was described to us as the follows:

The lottery is a little different. If you are at or above 20 scheduled interviews, then the lottery will not assign you more. If you are hopeful of getting a lottery selection, you need to leave room for it. The count is made after the promotion of alternates and you will not know how many alternates you have gotten until after the entire scheduling process is completed.

So, if you have 20 preselects and accept 4 alternates, if all 4 of your alternates become preselects (somewhat unlikely, but possible), you would not participate in the lottery.

e: Also, the lottery will never put you over the limit. So if you have 20 preselect and have 2 alternates turn into preselects, you will participate in the lottery, but will either get 1 or 0 additional interviews, it will never give you more than that.

What a weird system. Thanks for taking the time to explain everything.

[desertlaw]

Someone asked earlier if you have "as good of a chance" if you have an alternate interview rather than a PS.

Then answer is yes. Firms, especially with big class sizes, want to see more people than what they preselect. If you're in the general grade range, you've got just as good of a shot. And often, the people PS'd are just done so by non-JD recruiting committee people. It doesn't mean the lawyers interviewing are less interested in you because you're an alternate.

[Anonymous User]

Very disappointed there is not more panic.

3.28, 5 preselects, 2 alternates.

I'm very panicked right now.

[Anonymous User]

Very disappointed there is not more panic.

3.28, 5 preselects, 2 alternates.

I'm very panicked right now.

That's very normal for someone at or below the mean. Don't be alarmed. You should have never expected OGI to be a serious avenue for you to get a job anyway. Frankly 5 preselects from OGI for a below mean student is great! You're doing fine. Just make sure you take your main avenue for getting a job seriously (mass mailing and reaching out to alumni, family, friends, and using job fairs). I would make sure to spend a lot of time targeting PI. Big firm jobs aren't a realistic option for most people below the mean. You still have a chance, but understand that you should be focused heavily on PI and small local firms.

[Anonymous User]

So I got a preselect from a firm who is way, way out of my GPA range. I'm quite happy, but I'm nervous about what to expect. Are they just going to laugh me out of the room or what?

- Don Draper

[desertlaw]

So I got a preselect from a firm who is way, way out of my GPA range. I'm quite happy, but I'm nervous about what to expect. Are they just going to laugh me out of the room or what?

- Don Draper

I don't think they'll laugh you out of the room if you got a pre-select. There's probably a reason that you got the interview. Hopefully it's because they think you're awesome. Now just go prove it.

[Anonymous User]

So I got a preselect from a firm who is way, way out of my GPA range. I'm quite happy, but I'm nervous about what to expect. Are they just going to laugh me out of the room or what?

- Don Draper

I don't think they'll laugh you out of the room if you got a pre-select. There's probably a reason that you got the interview. Hopefully it's because they think you're awesome. Now just go prove it.

Yessir.

- Don Draper

[Anonymous User]

3.48, 10 preselects, 7 alternates

6 ps from secondary markets, 2 alt's (out of 14 bids)
4 ps from NY, 5 alt's from NY/DC (out of 36 NY/DC bids)

No WE, no journals, and some gaps in my resume probably hurt me, but I'm actually happy with the interviews I did end up getting.

[Anonymous User]

3.48, 10 preselects, 7 alternates

6 ps from secondary markets, 2 alt's (out of 14 bids)
4 ps from NY, 5 alt's from NY/DC (out of 36 NY/DC bids)

No WE, no journals, and some gaps in my resume probably hurt me, but I'm actually happy with the interviews I did end up getting.

I'm curious about this. Is it common for people to not be on a journal? Our PAs told our section that pretty much everyone does one.

[Anonymous User]

Most people do a journal. The thing with a journal/law review is it is one of those things that doesn't really help you if you have it, but it can hurt you if you don't. Most practictioners know that journal work is not all that exciting, interesting, or that useful, but it's still seen somewhat as a rite of passage.

On the other hand, some people use moot court or some other extracurricular to make up for the lack of a journal. Ultimately, it's not about journal x or moot court y, it's more a matter of showing that you have some skill, you're developing some skill, or you have an interest/passion/etc into something.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, that makes sense. Such a terrible rite of passage though... I wish it wasn't as "necessary"

[Anonymous User]

3.33 K-JD Checking in

5 Pre-selects (2 NY, 3 Secondary)
8 Alternates (4 NY, 4 Secondary)

Does this seem standard? Want to make sure there's no glaring problem with my app materials since I'm still mailing other firms.