Below Median at HYS EDITED

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Below Median at HYS EDITED

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:16 am

Below median at HYS, (no terrible grades, just not enough good ones) would like option of specific smaller market (think Bos. Chic. LA). Have ties to that market. Would also take NY in a pinch. Bid on smaller market and risk being shut out? Divide bids between smaller market and NY? Go all in on NY and be somewhat confident of getting at least something?
ETA: Is median measured by credits or simply by number of Hs?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:Below median at HYS, (no terrible grades, just not enough good ones) would like option of specific smaller market (think Bos. Chic. LA). Have ties to that market. Would also take NY in a pinch. Bid on smaller market and risk being shut out? Divide bids between smaller market and NY? Go all in on NY and be somewhat confident of getting at least something?

If you don't have any LPs and do have ties I don't think going all in on your home market is all that risky unless it's like, Seattle or another city with very few jobs in general. Depending on how popular the smaller market is, and how many firms from your city attend OCI, you may be able to split your bids to get in some NYC back up plan firms. The problem is that you probably need to use your high bids on NY, since they'll be more popular, and may miscalculate the popularity of "home" firms.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:33 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Below median at HYS, (no terrible grades, just not enough good ones) would like option of specific smaller market (think Bos. Chic. LA). Have ties to that market. Would also take NY in a pinch. Bid on smaller market and risk being shut out? Divide bids between smaller market and NY? Go all in on NY and be somewhat confident of getting at least something?

If you don't have any LPs and do have ties I don't think going all in on your home market is all that risky unless it's like, Seattle or another city with very few jobs in general. Depending on how popular the smaller market is, and how many firms from your city attend OCI, you may be able to split your bids to get in some NYC back up plan firms. The problem is that you probably need to use your high bids on NY, since they'll be more popular, and may miscalculate the popularity of "home" firms.
Thanks for the response. I guess I could use both high and low bids for both markets, like rank NY 1, home 2, etc. I'm also a little concerned about my ties - I didn't grow up there, but I have some connection to the area. Also, the market is not like Seattle. I don't want to get too specific but there's probably a couple hundred SA jobs there generally.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:41 am

Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:43 am

IAFG wrote:Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?

Not the OP, but are these + growing up there generally considered the best ties? What about going to undergrad in a market (but never returning).

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?

Not the OP, but are these + growing up there generally considered the best ties? What about going to undergrad in a market (but never returning).

It's not a comprehensive list, and honestly I got a job with much (much much much) weaker ties, but as someone who worked for an engineering recruiting firm, they're some of my favorite ties.

The UG thing would depend on other things. Is your UG close to where you grew up (e.g. grew up in Fresno, went to Berkeley, aiming for SF)? Where did you spend your year(s) off from school (China would help you, NY would hurt you)?

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:51 am

IAFG wrote:Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?
For illustrative purposes, say I bought a house there. Where would that fall?

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:53 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?

Not the OP, but are these + growing up there generally considered the best ties? What about going to undergrad in a market (but never returning).

It's not a comprehensive list, and honestly I got a job with much (much much much) weaker ties, but as someone who worked for an engineering recruiting firm, they're some of my favorite ties.

The UG thing would depend on other things. Is your UG close to where you grew up (e.g. grew up in Fresno, went to Berkeley, aiming for SF)? Where did you spend your year(s) off from school (China would help you, NY would hurt you)?

Well this is anon so who cares: I grew up in New Hampshire, went to school in Philly, then worked in NY... 2 years of WE. Is it really a stretch to say I want to go back to Philly?

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?
For illustrative purposes, say I bought a house there. Where would that fall?

Have you lived in the house? That sounds like a good start to a strong "why X" narrative to me.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:Eeee those ties sound iffy. Not having ties to a market can be far more deadly than not having the grades, depending on the market in question. Did you work there for 2+ years? Does your wife's family live there? Are you there for 1L summer now?

Not the OP, but are these + growing up there generally considered the best ties? What about going to undergrad in a market (but never returning).

It's not a comprehensive list, and honestly I got a job with much (much much much) weaker ties, but as someone who worked for an engineering recruiting firm, they're some of my favorite ties.

The UG thing would depend on other things. Is your UG close to where you grew up (e.g. grew up in Fresno, went to Berkeley, aiming for SF)? Where did you spend your year(s) off from school (China would help you, NY would hurt you)?

Well this is anon so who cares: I grew up in New Hampshire, went to school in Philly, then worked in NY... 2 years of WE. Is it really a stretch to say I want to go back to Philly?

I do not think that would play well, TBH. I am not saying there is no chance, but having worked in NY is a red flag for a lot of interviewers. You went to the big city once, why wouldn't you go again? Now if you have a brilliant answer to that question, things tilt back in your favor. But Philly is pretty insular, and also soft right now.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:01 am

Wouldn't go again because I hate NY and it's too expensive lol.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:30 am

So few Philly firms come to OCI that there is no risking being shut out of other markets. It's not like DC or SF where there are tons of firms and you can spend all of your good bids on them, you can probably snag all of the Philly firms with shitty bids and still have a pretty full slate of NY.

That being said when it comes to interviews (at least in my limited experience and anecdotally) "Why Philadelphia" is equal parts "Why Philly" and "Why not NY." So be prepared to deal with that.

There also might be some differences depending on which HYS you go to, where I imagine you're in better shape at Y, then H, then S, simply due to access opportunities at OCI, competition, and brand name in the city.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:37 am

If your'e at Yale I don't see how this would be all that hard. It's not far away and you can't even tell if someone is below median. And even at Harvard if you can make a plausible case I bet you would still do well. Stanford probably seems kind of random though to Philly firms. If you went that far away from Philly for law school it seems less believable that you want Philly if you aren't from there.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:57 am

OP here. To clarify, there are two people in this topic with questions: Me - HYS below median to smaller market, ties to that market such as owning a house there, and Philly person, (also seemingly HYS below median) who specifically wants to work in Philly and has ties in that he/she went to undergrad there. Just keepin' it clear.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. To clarify, there are two people in this topic with questions: Me - HYS below median to smaller market, ties to that market such as owning a house there, and Philly person, (also seemingly HYS below median) who specifically wants to work in Philly and has ties in that he/she went to undergrad there. Just keepin' it clear.

I would say that both of you have the advantage of massmailing outside of OCI to any firms not coming, and then emailing even ones who are to say you will be in town interviewing with another firm before or after OCI and that you would love to come in if they have time to see you. Nothing shows commitment to a market like physical presence.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:27 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
Clever. I am prematurely freaking out because I did so much worse than expected last semester, and I was banking on the fact that people in one school wouldn't know if the others had gotten grades yet. Although, as a mod, of course you know where I am anyway.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
Clever. I am prematurely freaking out because I did so much worse than expected last semester, and I was banking on the fact that people in one school wouldn't know if the others had gotten grades yet. Although, as a mod, of course you know where I am anyway.


I actually don't peak under anon all that often, usually only when I suspect a troll(I'm right the vast majority of the time), or if I'm trying to keep track of who is talking in a 15-person anon situation (and it's turned out to be helpful to the anons themselves before), specifically so that I don't actually out someone in a response like that. If you want I can go back and edit it out.

I don't know much about S or Y, so someone more knowledgeable about S or Y might want to respond to that.

If it's H, you should consider sending out cover letters & resumes to the firms in the smaller market long before EIP starts. Maybe say something like I'll be in town _________ if you are free to see me then. You can also try to actively ask some of the firms to add you if you don't get them through the lottery. I did this during 1L OCI with a firm I was interested in, and even though I didn't ultimately get their 1 offer, I did make it to callbacks. Also, look up OCI's charts from last year of how many ppl bid and got interviews. My guess is that those firms aren't that heavily bid on, you can probably use lower bids on them.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby haosquared » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:50 pm

At Y, FIP is a lot easier with at least one H on your spring transcript. That being said, lots of people with all Ps and "works in progress" found jobs. You should have enough bids to be able to interview at NYC firms as well as the secondary market. For NYC, I received an interview spot for every firm I ranked 1-14. Make sure you really research the firms and have a coherent story about yourself to present. The people with all Ps who had a harder time at FIP were those straight from ug who didn't do enough interview prep. I know 2 people who struck out at FIP my year but they were able to find firm jobs via mass mailing (neither were straight from ug).

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:46 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
:) Bump and topic change: Does anyone notice if Hs are on lower-credit courses? Or is an H an H regardless of the course?

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Na_Swatch » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
:) Bump and topic change: Does anyone notice if Hs are on lower-credit courses? Or is an H an H regardless of the course?


Usually for 1L year since the courses are all relatively similar in hours, an H will be viewed equally b/w all classes. So say a 4 Hour Property H will be basically the same as a LRW H. However the exception is if you take one of those micro-hour classes (like a 1 or 2 hour credit course) where the H might be discounted a bit.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:35 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
:) Bump and topic change: Does anyone notice if Hs are on lower-credit courses? Or is an H an H regardless of the course?


Usually for 1L year since the courses are all relatively similar in hours, an H will be viewed equally b/w all classes. So say a 4 Hour Property H will be basically the same as a LRW H. However the exception is if you take one of those micro-hour classes (like a 1 or 2 hour credit course) where the H might be discounted a bit.


Are you just guessing on this or do you have anything to back it up other than a hunch?

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby delusional » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
:) Bump and topic change: Does anyone notice if Hs are on lower-credit courses? Or is an H an H regardless of the course?


Usually for 1L year since the courses are all relatively similar in hours, an H will be viewed equally b/w all classes. So say a 4 Hour Property H will be basically the same as a LRW H. However the exception is if you take one of those micro-hour classes (like a 1 or 2 hour credit course) where the H might be discounted a bit.


Are you just guessing on this or do you have anything to back it up other than a hunch?
I hate when discussions like this go back and forth, because there is obviously no right answer. Same for the topics about how to "spin" a grade rise. Obviously, someone could notice if your good marks come on softer courses, or if you got appreciably better second semester, and equally obviously, someone else might not care, especially on such broad grades like H and P where it's hard to judge with precision where someone stands anyway. I can't imagine that such niche questions have a uniform answer among interviewers for one firm, let alone across the entire biglaw.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Na_Swatch » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Wait, how do you even know? Neither H nor S have grades for 2nd semester yet. If you're at H, you only need around 3 Hs to be at median, which you could've pulled off in one semester. If you're not at Y, you might be prematurely freaking out.
:) Bump and topic change: Does anyone notice if Hs are on lower-credit courses? Or is an H an H regardless of the course?


Usually for 1L year since the courses are all relatively similar in hours, an H will be viewed equally b/w all classes. So say a 4 Hour Property H will be basically the same as a LRW H. However the exception is if you take one of those micro-hour classes (like a 1 or 2 hour credit course) where the H might be discounted a bit.


Are you just guessing on this or do you have anything to back it up other than a hunch?


Here's an example from HLS EIP... You walk in, an attorney asks for your transcript... Then looks down and scans how many H's you have.

The process takes them all of 15-45 seconds. Based on their reaction and comments, along with OCS's own stated advice on your grades (they refer to you as 1H, 2H, 3-5H, etc.), the fact that almost all 1L classes are about equal in length just means that H is an H almost all the time.

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Re: Below Median at HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:48 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Usually for 1L year since the courses are all relatively similar in hours, an H will be viewed equally b/w all classes. So say a 4 Hour Property H will be basically the same as a LRW H. However the exception is if you take one of those micro-hour classes (like a 1 or 2 hour credit course) where the H might be discounted a bit.


Are you just guessing on this or do you have anything to back it up other than a hunch?


Here's an example from HLS EIP... You walk in, an attorney asks for your transcript... Then looks down and scans how many H's you have.

The process takes them all of 15-45 seconds. Based on their reaction and comments, along with OCS's own stated advice on your grades (they refer to you as 1H, 2H, 3-5H, etc.), the fact that almost all 1L classes are about equal in length just means that H is an H almost all the time.


I was referring more to your last point that the "micro-hour" classes are given less weight. This would make sense if they grouped all these classes together, but you indicate that LRW would be viewed differently than some others. How would they even know how many hours a class actually meets by just looking at your transcript?




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