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Anonymous User
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:14 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. So, assuming I have few and weak connections, should I not even bother doing OCI?


Yes go through OCI. What do you have to lose?


Wouldn't it make me look bad if i do the JD/MBA and then re-interview with the same firm? Wouldn't they know they previously denied me?

BarrySanders
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby BarrySanders » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That's very helpful, thank you for your advice. The $30K does include COL. What kinds of jobs do Maurer/SPEA people go after?


I think that most Maurer/SPEA people are trying to get into government or public service. After all, their MPA program is #2 (and has been consistently in the top 5 over the last 20 years or so) according to U.S. News rankings. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-public-affairs-schools/public-affairs-rankings

SPEA also has a M.S. Environmental Science and I suspect that those people are trying to get a position either in government or at a boutique somewhere. Also, SPEA is a lot cheaper than the law school or business school ($ 22,000/year out of state), so it is a better way to go from that perspective.

I doubt if SPEA will do anything for getting into firms though. I was simply suggesting that you explore your options (I was the anonymous poster earlier) and see if it would be something you are interested in. There are a lot of other options besides MBA and MPA though, M.S. Accounting, M.S. [Science], M.S. [language], etc. The key to get into firms is to use your extra year to get your grades up. I doubt that firms will remember you they simply have too many applicants. If they do, they might not even care.

Anonymous User
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:07 pm

BarrySanders wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That's very helpful, thank you for your advice. The $30K does include COL. What kinds of jobs do Maurer/SPEA people go after?


I think that most Maurer/SPEA people are trying to get into government or public service. After all, their MPA program is #2 (and has been consistently in the top 5 over the last 20 years or so) according to U.S. News rankings. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-public-affairs-schools/public-affairs-rankings

SPEA also has a M.S. Environmental Science and I suspect that those people are trying to get a position either in government or at a boutique somewhere. Also, SPEA is a lot cheaper than the law school or business school ($ 22,000/year out of state), so it is a better way to go from that perspective.

I doubt if SPEA will do anything for getting into firms though. I was simply suggesting that you explore your options (I was the anonymous poster earlier) and see if it would be something you are interested in. There are a lot of other options besides MBA and MPA though, M.S. Accounting, M.S. [Science], M.S. [language], etc. The key to get into firms is to use your extra year to get your grades up. I doubt that firms will remember you they simply have too many applicants. If they do, they might not even care.


Got it. Thanks a lot, that's very helpful.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:41 pm

In your situation, I would target firms with 2-10 attorneys in those cities where you have ties to and Indianapolis and hope for the best. Be sure to really market yourself in your cover letter - why are your interested in their firm and what value can you add to their practice? Everyone knows that recent grads have no value, but you should be able to spin your elective courses and other experiences (clinics, pre law work experience, internships, etc.) to make you attractive.

If you will entertain my curiosity, what made you decide on IUB over east coast schools like Temple, Villanova, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Rutgers Newark/Camden, etc.?

Anonymous User
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:In your situation, I would target firms with 2-10 attorneys in those cities where you have ties to and Indianapolis and hope for the best. Be sure to really market yourself in your cover letter - why are your interested in their firm and what value can you add to their practice? Everyone knows that recent grads have no value, but you should be able to spin your elective courses and other experiences (clinics, pre law work experience, internships, etc.) to make you attractive.

If you will entertain my curiosity, what made you decide on IUB over east coast schools like Temple, Villanova, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Rutgers Newark/Camden, etc.?


I was a splitter, got a great scholarship, and Indiana is a very good school. I was accepted at three of those schools, and probably should've went to one. I might have done better, though who knows how much better; but I would definitely have been more in debt.

This sucks.

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IAFG
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby IAFG » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:In your situation, I would target firms with 2-10 attorneys in those cities where you have ties to and Indianapolis and hope for the best. Be sure to really market yourself in your cover letter - why are your interested in their firm and what value can you add to their practice? Everyone knows that recent grads have no value, but you should be able to spin your elective courses and other experiences (clinics, pre law work experience, internships, etc.) to make you attractive.

If you will entertain my curiosity, what made you decide on IUB over east coast schools like Temple, Villanova, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Rutgers Newark/Camden, etc.?


I was a splitter, got a great scholarship, and Indiana is a very good school. I was accepted at three of those schools, and probably should've went to one. I might have done better, though who knows how much better; but I would definitely have been more in debt.

This sucks.

Indiana is well-ranked but mostly seems to be a school of broken dreams.

Anonymous User
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:27 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:In your situation, I would target firms with 2-10 attorneys in those cities where you have ties to and Indianapolis and hope for the best. Be sure to really market yourself in your cover letter - why are your interested in their firm and what value can you add to their practice? Everyone knows that recent grads have no value, but you should be able to spin your elective courses and other experiences (clinics, pre law work experience, internships, etc.) to make you attractive.

If you will entertain my curiosity, what made you decide on IUB over east coast schools like Temple, Villanova, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Rutgers Newark/Camden, etc.?


I was a splitter, got a great scholarship, and Indiana is a very good school. I was accepted at three of those schools, and probably should've went to one. I might have done better, though who knows how much better; but I would definitely have been more in debt.

This sucks.

Indiana is well-ranked but mostly seems to be a school of broken dreams.


It's their market. Chicago gets pounded by UChi, UMich, NW, UIUC, ND, and others, and Indianapolis is smaller than midtown Manhattan. Then where do you go? Louisville? I think it's a shame because IU-B has attracted a lot of really smart and interesting people, but it will take time for the school to get more of a reputation and start attracting more firms to its OCI. Hopefully the past few classes will generate some successful people and firms will start to recognize how good a school it is.

How about doing public interest work? I do have a background in that, and I think I can demonstrate serious interest. Is that more possible as things stand?

LawIdiot86
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby LawIdiot86 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:In your situation, I would target firms with 2-10 attorneys in those cities where you have ties to and Indianapolis and hope for the best. Be sure to really market yourself in your cover letter - why are your interested in their firm and what value can you add to their practice? Everyone knows that recent grads have no value, but you should be able to spin your elective courses and other experiences (clinics, pre law work experience, internships, etc.) to make you attractive.

If you will entertain my curiosity, what made you decide on IUB over east coast schools like Temple, Villanova, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Rutgers Newark/Camden, etc.?


I was a splitter, got a great scholarship, and Indiana is a very good school. I was accepted at three of those schools, and probably should've went to one. I might have done better, though who knows how much better; but I would definitely have been more in debt.

This sucks.

Indiana is well-ranked but mostly seems to be a school of broken dreams.


It's their market. Chicago gets pounded by UChi, UMich, NW, UIUC, ND, and others, and Indianapolis is smaller than midtown Manhattan. Then where do you go? Louisville? I think it's a shame because IU-B has attracted a lot of really smart and interesting people, but it will take time for the school to get more of a reputation and start attracting more firms to its OCI. Hopefully the past few classes will generate some successful people and firms will start to recognize how good a school it is.


It doesn't matter how good of a school it is. Using LSAT as a very invalid predictor of law school success, the second quartile at UIB is 164, at Duke it's 170.5 and ND is 167.5. Why would they want to go to UIB and interview fewer students in the upper reaches of the country for LSAT performance when they can go to Northwestern and gorge themselves on students they perceive as having better qualifications?

Should I Transfer??
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Should I Transfer?? » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:15 pm

Personally, I don't think that the idea of getting a dual degree and thereby significantly increasing your debt load is worth it, if your purpose is solely to raise your grades in order to become more marketable at OCI. If you are median now, you are unlikely to improve that much. Other people will also be trying to raise their gpa by taking easier graded courses as well. Additionally, even if you were able to improve to say, top 25%, it is not as if all of those individuals are getting jobs through OCI either.

However, you mentioned an interest in public interest work and a degree from SPEA could add value to those employers and show a commitment to public interest. But, these positions aren't going to be attained through OCI anyways, but rather through your own networking. SPEA itself does not have a strong placement program of any sort either, so you won't be able to rely on that.

With respect to the comment that IU-B is a school of broken dreams, that is only so if you have unrealistic expectations coming in. It is common wisdom that when evaluating schools to attend as a 0L you should assume that you will end up being median. People who attend believing that they will crush it and attain biglaw are of course disappointed when they end up median. Ending up at median is not the worst that could happen, but rather the most likely scenario. There are still jobs to be had, but much more leg work will have to go into the search than merely relying on OCI.

Anonymous User
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:47 pm

Should I Transfer?? wrote:Personally, I don't think that the idea of getting a dual degree and thereby significantly increasing your debt load is worth it, if your purpose is solely to raise your grades in order to become more marketable at OCI. If you are median now, you are unlikely to improve that much. Other people will also be trying to raise their gpa by taking easier graded courses as well. Additionally, even if you were able to improve to say, top 25%, it is not as if all of those individuals are getting jobs through OCI either.

However, you mentioned an interest in public interest work and a degree from SPEA could add value to those employers and show a commitment to public interest. But, these positions aren't going to be attained through OCI anyways, but rather through your own networking. SPEA itself does not have a strong placement program of any sort either, so you won't be able to rely on that.

With respect to the comment that IU-B is a school of broken dreams, that is only so if you have unrealistic expectations coming in. It is common wisdom that when evaluating schools to attend as a 0L you should assume that you will end up being median. People who attend believing that they will crush it and attain biglaw are of course disappointed when they end up median. Ending up at median is not the worst that could happen, but rather the most likely scenario. There are still jobs to be had, but much more leg work will have to go into the search than merely relying on OCI.


Why do you say SPEA doesn't place well? Why is it consistently ranked #2? Anyway, I'm probably more interested in Kelley anyway. They place pretty decently, from what I hear.

Should I Transfer??
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Should I Transfer?? » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:01 am

Did not mean to imply that it does not place well. It does not have a strong formal placement program, i.e. an OCI of any sort. most people obtain jobs through networking and through job posting that their career services people send out to students. Also, U.S. News rankings for public affairs programs are based solely on peer assessments by other graduate programs evaluating the strength of the faculty.

I have much less knowledge about Kelley, but have also heard good things about their program.

thisbigolclub
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby thisbigolclub » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP - I just finished my 2L year at IU-B. I was top 30% last fall, with post B.S. work experience, and struck out at OCI and mass mailings. I agree with the advice to consider a joint degree. Not only is the Business school pretty highly ranked, but so is SPEA, if you are interested in public affairs. I am in a joint JD program now and have improved my grades a lot.

The reason that grade improvement matters is that, as a joint JD student, you have the chance to go through the summer associate lottery (aka OCI) one more time. You also have something else to talk about in an interview, especially if you have an unusual joint degree. In the 2L year you can game the system somewhat to vastly improve your GPA and resume through class selection. By this I mean taking seminars, clinics, small classes in fields that interest you, etc. The seminars, clinics, and classes below a certain size (20 students?) are not graded on a curve. This was my plan going in, and it worked. Last semester, I had a 3.92 GPA which, combined with a 3.7 fall semester has put me at or near the top 10%. I can also talk about papers I wrote in a seminar, work I did at the clinic I was in, and so on.

I'm not sure if it will work or not, but I considered this a better approach than dropping out. If the $30k/year includes COL, I would stick it out or investigate a joint degree. If you are paying $30k / year in tuition, then maybe drop out. DON'T transfer to a lower ranked school.

Finally, if you are in Bloomington and want to talk to me about this, post a reply and I will PM you.


That's one hell of a shrewd scheme. If I didn't think it was so damn brilliant, I'd call you out for pulling a bitch move...

Miller32
Posts: 131
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Re: Median at IU-B

Postby Miller32 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:25 pm

To the poster saying midlaw in Indy is doable is wrong. There are like 5 firms that fit the midlaw description, at most. And each of those firms takes on 1-2 SA's, at most.

Median at IU-B probably isn't going to cut it when that's what the market looks like.




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