Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

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Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 1:11 am

Is getting an LLM worth getting? Does it help if the JD is from a T4 and I know I can get into at least a T2 LLM? That way I can say "I graduated from (the llm school)" ?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri May 25, 2012 1:12 am

No.

And now someone post the LLM flowchart.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Fri May 25, 2012 1:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:Is getting an LLM worth getting? Does it help if the JD is from a T4 and I know I can get into at least a T2 LLM? That way I can say "I graduated from (the llm school)" ?



No

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Fri May 25, 2012 1:15 am

Image

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 1:39 am

I noticed some civil service jobs say top 25% of your class or an LLM. So that would seem a perk to it, to get those jobs.

In academia I can't imagine someone not getting a Prof job with an LLM either. Seems like you show up and it's yours with that.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Fri May 25, 2012 1:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:I noticed some civil service jobs say top 25% of your class or an LLM. So that would seem a perk to it, to get those jobs.

In academia I can't imagine someone not getting a Prof job with an LLM either. Seems like you show up and it's yours with that.



Don't count on getting an academia position if you didn't go to a school like Yale (and I mean law school not an LLM). It probably wont happen. HOWEVER, I admit that I know nothing about these civil service jobs you are mentioning.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby jurisx » Fri May 25, 2012 1:43 am

RedBirds2011 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I noticed some civil service jobs say top 25% of your class or an LLM. So that would seem a perk to it, to get those jobs.

In academia I can't imagine someone not getting a Prof job with an LLM either. Seems like you show up and it's yours with that.



Don't count on getting an acadcemia position if you didn't go to a school like Yale. It probably wont happen. HOWEVER, I admit that I know nothing about these civil service jobs you are mentioning.

Translation: "I Know nothing, but here is my opinion anyways" :|

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Fri May 25, 2012 1:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I noticed some civil service jobs say top 25% of your class or an LLM. So that would seem a perk to it, to get those jobs.

In academia I can't imagine someone not getting a Prof job with an LLM either. Seems like you show up and it's yours with that.



Don't count on getting an acadcemia position if you didn't go to a school like Yale. It probably wont happen. HOWEVER, I admit that I know nothing about these civil service jobs you are mentioning.

Translation: "I Know nothing, but here is my opinion anyways" :|



Wut? dude its pretty common knowledge that an LLM is absolutely worthless. If you want to spend a ton of money on one, it is your funeral, not mine. A tax LLM is the only LLM worth it if it is one of the top 3. And even then, they can struggle. You will have to elaborate further on what these "civil service" jobs are for me to help any there. But I can almost 99.9 percent guarantee you that they are not worth whatever tuition they are asking for. If you are at a TTTT, stop worrying about getting more credentials and focus all that energy in networking. Also...lower your expectations. you can still find a way to make it. However, it wont be through some stupid LLM program.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri May 25, 2012 1:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:I noticed some civil service jobs say top 25% of your class or an LLM. So that would seem a perk to it, to get those jobs.

In academia I can't imagine someone not getting a Prof job with an LLM either. Seems like you show up and it's yours with that.


Why are you giving bad advice as an anon user? If you missed out on biglaw, an LLM isn't going to help much (tax being the sort-of exception). If you are not able to find a legal job for after law school, loading up another 100K+ in debt is probably a terrible idea.

As for academia, an LLM is absolutely not a golden ticket to being a professor. Most law professors are either just JDs or JD + PhD (and a few are just PhDs). You'll see the occasional professor with an SJD or LLM, but those will typically be foreign-trained lawyers looking to become academics. An LLM could make sense for someone who 1) already has lots of the ridiculous requirements to be competitive for legal academia and 2) wants to have some time to work on publishing in an academic environment. A VAP, if you can get one, would probably be better to do than an LLM though.

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IAFG
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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 25, 2012 7:35 am

If there was a degree that was a magical ticket to becoming a professor, don't you think Corsair would be a professor by now?

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri May 25, 2012 8:58 am

LLM programs can be worthwhile in specific situations such as for those focusing on tax law or needing CLE credits. Often the costs are reimbursed by one's employer or law firm. Although not typically the most efficient path to CLE credits, it can help for those with multiple state bar memberships because, unlike many courses offered in or by a particular jurisdiction, LLM coursework typically is approved by all state bars for CLE credit.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 9:26 am

CanadianWolf wrote:LLM programs can be worthwhile in specific situations such as for those focusing on tax law or needing CLE credits. Often the costs are reimbursed by one's employer or law firm. Although not typically the most efficient path to CLE credits, it can help for those with multiple state bar memberships because, unlike many courses offered in or by a particular jurisdiction, LLM coursework typically is approved by all state bars for CLE credit.


Heh, I hadn't thought about trying to get a firm to foot the bill for a LLM as a method of getting CLE credit.

Why in God's name would any firm do this unless you're in a tax group and doing NYU's Executive Tax LLM (the one that can be done entirely remotely)? All firms already pay for a pretty wide range of CLE stuff, and I can't imagine firms care whether Nebraska accepts the stupid CLE thing that you run in the background while you're doing real work.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby booboo » Fri May 25, 2012 9:29 am

IAFG wrote:If there was a degree that was a magical ticket to becoming a professor, don't you think Corsair would be a professor by now?


I acknowledge this.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri May 25, 2012 9:55 am

OP: In your situation, an LLM degree does not seem to be worthwhile.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby theaccidentalclerk » Fri May 25, 2012 6:12 pm

The only professors I know with LLMs are:

1.) Foreign-educated professors;
2.) Professors who did a VAP or fellowship program where the LLM is automatically awarded (Wisconsin and GWU do something like this, I think; Yale might as well).
3.) Tax professors.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 6:57 pm

I wish this worked. I went to a second tier school, was lucky enough to clerk for a federal coa judge, and then was even luckier and landed in DC biglaw. I thought about doing the GULC night LLM so I could cover up the second tier blip on my resume. Everyone I told that plan to told me it was a huge waste of time and money.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Void » Fri May 25, 2012 7:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I wish this worked. I went to a second tier school, was lucky enough to clerk for a federal coa judge, and then was even luckier and landed in DC biglaw. I thought about doing the GULC night LLM so I could cover up the second tier blip on my resume. Everyone I told that plan to told me it was a huge waste of time and money.


Why would you care about the T2 on your resume now that you've been a circuit court clerk and a biglaw associate?

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 7:22 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:Image


So a Harvard LLM is useless then? Interesting chart.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 25, 2012 7:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Image


So a Harvard LLM is useless then? Interesting chart.

You posted this anon in case you were wrong in your assumption that an HLS LLM had some sort of weight, didn't you?

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 7:57 pm

Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I wish this worked. I went to a second tier school, was lucky enough to clerk for a federal coa judge, and then was even luckier and landed in DC biglaw. I thought about doing the GULC night LLM so I could cover up the second tier blip on my resume. Everyone I told that plan to told me it was a huge waste of time and money.


Why would you care about the T2 on your resume now that you've been a circuit court clerk and a biglaw associate?


Partnership (everyone seems smart and they all want partner. Why offer it to me when the next guy went to HLS). Bringing in clients (clients ask, and I think they care--it's hard for an outsider to tell if you're a good attorney. Things like law school are important to clients because it signals that you're a smart person). Getting work (Perhaps I have a chip on my shoulder, but I am nervous partners will naturally prefer to assign work to the guy that went to the school they graduated from). Also, I'm not at Williams & Connolly or Covington. If I could erase the T2 with a GULC LLM, and somehow end up at a W&C level firm, that would be great.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Fri May 25, 2012 9:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I wish this worked. I went to a second tier school, was lucky enough to clerk for a federal coa judge, and then was even luckier and landed in DC biglaw. I thought about doing the GULC night LLM so I could cover up the second tier blip on my resume. Everyone I told that plan to told me it was a huge waste of time and money.


Why would you care about the T2 on your resume now that you've been a circuit court clerk and a biglaw associate?


Partnership (everyone seems smart and they all want partner. Why offer it to me when the next guy went to HLS). Bringing in clients (clients ask, and I think they care--it's hard for an outsider to tell if you're a good attorney. Things like law school are important to clients because it signals that you're a smart person). Getting work (Perhaps I have a chip on my shoulder, but I am nervous partners will naturally prefer to assign work to the guy that went to the school they graduated from). Also, I'm not at Williams & Connolly or Covington. If I could erase the T2 with a GULC LLM, and somehow end up at a W&C level firm, that would be great.


A GULC LLM won't get you into W&C because the only LLMs from GULC who get jobs are tax LLMs and W&C has precisely two lawyers, both partners, who do tax. Beyond that, getting an LLM in tax, which is the only market LLM, when you aren't committed to tax, means you won't perform as well as those dedicated to the field. Finally, the "good" outcome for a GULC tax LLM is a Big 4 accounting firm or the tax practice of a random V100, not V10. You already have the COA clerkship, which opens far more doors.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby sunynp » Fri May 25, 2012 9:50 pm

You need to get over this chip on your shoulder. You are in the big leagues now. Partners don't assign work by alumni. At least not at my firm. They assign work on experience level, department and availability - not in that order. Also, clients don't care as long as you do a great job for them.

Forget doing more school and focus on your professional career now.

edit to add - almost no one makes partner. Do not plan on achieving that.

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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Fri May 25, 2012 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Image


So a Harvard LLM is useless then? Interesting chart.



For you, yes. Tax Llm is the only thing worth doing and only if it is a top 3. And even then it's not always a great decision.


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Re: Getting an LLM from a T2 to improve after a T4 JD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 11:14 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:A GULC LLM won't get you into W&C because the only LLMs from GULC who get jobs are tax LLMs and W&C has precisely two lawyers, both partners, who do tax. Beyond that, getting an LLM in tax, which is the only market LLM, when you aren't committed to tax, means you won't perform as well as those dedicated to the field. Finally, the "good" outcome for a GULC tax LLM is a Big 4 accounting firm or the tax practice of a random V100, not V10. You already have the COA clerkship, which opens far more doors.


Yes, I know. That's why I'm not doing it. There was a little bit when I was thinking about it and I quickly changed my mind when someone explained to me that my idea was terrible.

On another note, have you noticed that a lot of older partners have LLBs (instead of JDs) and LLMs? It seems like there's a lot of older folks (like 80 year olds) that went that route. I thought that was odd.

Found one: http://www.bsfllp.com/lawyers/data/0001




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