Pregnant 2L Summer

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 1:42 pm

During my SA last summer, I had lunch with a then-3rd year associate told me she was visibly pregnant as a summer and during her first year as an associate. She said she felt really left out of the summer social events, probably because she couldn't drink and was hugely pregnant, but she clearly did enough to make it work and got an offer. When she started fulltime she got pregnant and had the baby during the beginning of her second year, took the full 4 month maternity leave and said she felt "disabled" professionally (her words, not mine). Just as she was getting into the swing of things as a first year associate, she was gone for four months and when she came back her classmates were so far ahead of her and she hadn't established and solidified the working relationships she needed to stay busy. If I'm remembering correctly, she told me she hadn't met her billable requirements and wasn't on track to meet them for that year, but felt that since she was making an effort looking for work she wouldn't get fired (I've heard this to be true at my firm: that if you're looking for work and staying busy but aren't meeting your billables you will probably be fine for a few years). But there was a lot of distress and worry in her voice.

There was another young pregnant associate who was petite and very visibly pregnant at, I'd say, about 10 weeks. Whether or not you show early has nothing to do with random pictures people find on the internet and everything to do with your own statute, current weight, how your mom carried, how many children you've already had and the statue of your husband/baby daddy. I think taller women tend to show later because the baby has room to grow up whereas shorter women tend to POP super soon because there's nowhere to go but out. How much weight you gain has nothing to do with how you show and whether you will show early.

Honestly, assuming you're not in your mid-to-late 30s, I wouldn't get pregnant until I was at least a 3rd or 4th year and had marketable skills in case I needed to lateral to another job. I think your first few years should be spent developing skills and professional relationships. There were quite a few women at my firm who were 80% time, but from a few frank conversations I had with some led me to believe that if you're parttime, despite your willingness to work from home after hours, people will either want to respect your non-working time and not bother you with new work or they will overlook you for someone who they know has no childcare obligations and can put in as much time as needed. Just being honest.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 1:43 pm

Paichka wrote:My situation was a little different because I was working at a JAG office rather than a firm, but I showed up out-to-here pregnant to my 2L summer job, and it was fine. I emailed my boss ahead of time to let him know, started work the Monday after exams, worked for two weeks until my son was born, took six weeks of maternity leave and then came back to finish out the summer. I worked right up until classes started again.

Having been through two newborns and now bar review, I think that 2L summer is a better time to have a baby than 3L summer, for a couple of reasons. First, I would hate to be crazy sleep deprived while trying to cram 25 different bar subjects into my head, and second, I wouldn't want to show up to my first job and then have to immediately take maternity leave. I'm putting off getting pregnant against until next year for that exact reason -- I want to demonstrate my value to my boss first before I'm MIA for six or eight weeks. :)

If this will be your first pregnancy, AND you don't use it as an excuse to eat a pint of Ben & Jerry's every night, you won't end up looking like Jessica Simpson or like you're carrying a basketball team. With my daughter, I didn't show until around the sixth month -- your abs tend to keep things sucked in kind of tight. Second pregnancy, however, watch out. :p Eat healthily (ie, only 300 extra calories per day for the baby -- you aren't eating for two adults, you're eating for yourself and a peanut), get moderate exercise, and you will probably only look like you ate one too many tacos at happy hour up until late in your second trimester. If anything, people will notice you're pregnant by the lack of drinking, but you can stand around with a diet coke and just tell people there's vodka in it. Or, just tell people you're pregnant -- as long as you aren't wandering around talking about your mucus plug or sore boobs at the top of your lungs, I doubt anyone will get skeeved out by it. I had to pump for my son while at work, which was slightly awkward, but I quietly asked my boss where I could do it and they made a lockable room available to me. It ended up being fine, and had no impact on my performance review at the end of the summer.

There really isn't a perfect time to have a kid -- if you want to have one and you're otherwise able to, go for it and deal with the complications as they arise.

Good luck!


(OP) Thanks so much for the advice! That's pretty awesome that JAG let you have maternity leave and then come back. We're putting off trying until December so that in the unlikely event I get pregnant the first month I wouldn't be due until late August/early September, so hopefully I'll be able to work the whole summer wherever I end up.

I know there's no perfect time, but this time seems better than any. I agree about wanting to demonstrate your value before going MIA. I'd like to have at least a year at my job before getting pregnant, so if we waited until then I'd be 31, which doesn't leave a lot of time to have two or three more kids. Only having to take maternity leave twice would be nice too.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby sunynp » Thu May 24, 2012 1:51 pm

One concern I have is that you won't know how you will feel when you are pregnant. If you get really tired, that might affect your work as an SA. And there will be a lot of events to go to. I would wait until after. I think that studying for the bar is something that you can do on your on schedule with online classes. So I vote for getting pregnant during or after your SA.

I don't think that being pregnant will hurt you with an SA offer unless it somehow affects your work or your ability to work, or the hours you can work.

Of course if you don't get an SA through OCI, then you might as well get pregnant then.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 2:09 pm

not too hijack thread, but this topic is freaking me out in terms of age, career and kids. Is late twenties too late, should I start worrying about kids (am already in a relationship)? I'll be a 3L and this hasn't even crossed my mind, and reading the responses, I'm realizing a lot of people have kids/had kids around law school time. I thought - law school, work for a few years, then focus on kids, how can women possibly handle children and working as an attorney full time...

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:not too hijack thread, but this topic is freaking me out in terms of age, career and kids. Is late twenties too late, should I start worrying about kids (am already in a relationship)? I'll be a 3L and this hasn't even crossed my mind, and reading the responses, I'm realizing a lot of people have kids/had kids around law school time. I thought - law school, work for a few years, then focus on kids, how can women possibly handle children and working as an attorney full time...


OP here. Don't be freaked out. I'm just a Type-A planner, and I need to have my ducks in a row and a five year plan in hand at all times. Being a young(er) mother is important to me. When I was younger, I always thought I'd be done having kids by 30. I've pushed that back to 35, but for others that's just not realistic. Many women are happily starting their families at 35 or even 40. It's just not really my thing.

As for how women can handle being an attorney and having children.... same way the single moms who work two jobs to make ends meet do. You just do what needs to be done and make the best of it.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 2:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:During my SA last summer, I had lunch with a then-3rd year associate told me she was visibly pregnant as a summer and during her first year as an associate. She said she felt really left out of the summer social events, probably because she couldn't drink and was hugely pregnant, but she clearly did enough to make it work and got an offer. When she started fulltime she got pregnant and had the baby during the beginning of her second year, took the full 4 month maternity leave and said she felt "disabled" professionally (her words, not mine). Just as she was getting into the swing of things as a first year associate, she was gone for four months and when she came back her classmates were so far ahead of her and she hadn't established and solidified the working relationships she needed to stay busy. If I'm remembering correctly, she told me she hadn't met her billable requirements and wasn't on track to meet them for that year, but felt that since she was making an effort looking for work she wouldn't get fired (I've heard this to be true at my firm: that if you're looking for work and staying busy but aren't meeting your billables you will probably be fine for a few years). But there was a lot of distress and worry in her voice.


Getting pregnant as a first year is definitely the worst possible way to go, which is why I don't like the idea of putting it off until after the bar exam. Waiting until year three or four is a common choice, but one you should really think about. That puts you in your early 30's for your first child. Moreover, your first pregnancy is the most likely to be difficult, and you'd be trying to deal with that while dealing with the increased responsibilities of a mid-level associate. And if someone wants multiple kids, like OP, that means another pregnancy and birth very soon after the first.

Meanwhile, if OP is pregnant during her SA and has the first kid during 3L, she has almost a year to recover and have the baby sleeping through the night, etc. She has child care responsibilities as a first year associate, but to a certain extent you can outsource those things, while you can't outsource the ordeal of pregnancy itself. And once she has the first, she can wait until she is quite senior to have the second or third--if she does encounter fertility problems in her mid/late 30's, at least she will have one.

Now, I'm not saying that waiting until year three or four doesn't make sense for a lot of people. However, I think it's often a CW that isn't even questioned. There are real advantages to the kid being more than a year old by the time you start working as an associate, and old enough for school by the time you're a senior associate or gunning for partner.

If you have the credentials, I would also consider how clerking factors into the equation. Clerking is usually often more baby-friendly than working at a firm, but maintains your seniority at the firm. Especially if you're one of the many lawyer-lawyer couples, you might be able to buy yourself substantial flexibility by each person clerking for a year or two.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby NoleinNY » Thu May 24, 2012 4:13 pm

I didn't see if this was posted in the thread, but seemed appropriate:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/0 ... 14754.html

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby IAFG » Thu May 24, 2012 10:59 pm

The best thing do to for your career is to not have kids.

If you must, the next best thing is to arrange your life to make sure kids don't get in the way. Not morning sickness (can be very debilitating; do not underestimate how disruptive this could be for you) not going into labor during your summer at a place where you need to produce work product to get an offer, and not taking maternity leave during the first two years of your associateship, when you're supposed to be proving yourself.

I agree with PP that lining up your summer with your second trimester or part of second, part of third is best. Get pregnant sooner, and you risk pre-term labor during your summer. Bad news. If you wait until after the bar, you better wait until after you're solidly a midlevel. If you're going to wait until you have an offer, better get started finding a daycare that takes very new babies.

There's a lot of really shitty advice ITT that would result in having a baby being far more disruptive to your career by waiting longer (like trying to not have distractions for the bar... what?!). Again, the best thing to do is to skip it altogether.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby dresden doll » Thu May 24, 2012 11:14 pm

IAFG wrote:
There's a lot of really shitty advice ITT that would result in having a baby being far more disruptive to your career by waiting longer (like trying to not have distractions for the bar... what?!).


THANK YOU. I don't know how people who can't manage 4 hour Bar Bri videos five days a week with a kid around hope to have kids, like ever.

The shit part about having kids as a student isn't the time commitment. It's the severely strained budget that comes with raising a kid on COL loans that are practically below the poverty line.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 11:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:while you can't outsource the ordeal of pregnancy itself


surrogacy

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby IAFG » Thu May 24, 2012 11:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:while you can't outsource the ordeal of pregnancy itself


surrogacy


$$$$$

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 12:35 am

One word of caution to those advising to wait until your early 30s. That drastically increases your chance at multiples. And if you think balancing work and an infant is hard with one, try it with twins. (Or as someone on NPR said a while back, because "twins" sounds all cute and adorable, "TWO F*CKING BABIES AT THE SAME TIME.")

Seriously, our twins didn't sleep through the night until 9 or 10 months. We were basically getting 5 hours of sleep a night, in 45 minute increments. To this day, I don't remember anything from about August 2010 until February 2011. And we had a 4-5 year-old girl who was hugely helpful. We've already told her that she gets to go to the good college. Plus, we both have pretty forgiving jobs. (Me: Government appellate lawyer. Spouse: Academic.) I can't imagine doing a biglaw gig with twins.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby IAFG » Fri May 25, 2012 7:31 am

I thought older women had more multiples due to fertility treatments?

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 7:49 am

IAFG wrote:The best thing do to for your career is to not have kids.



And the best thing I can do for my future kids is to not have a career. I realize that. I'm just trying to find the best way to do both. I agree that being second trimester if possible over the summer would be best, and I think that's what we're going to aim for.


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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby rayiner » Fri May 25, 2012 8:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:The best thing do to for your career is to not have kids.



And the best thing I can do for my future kids is to not have a career. I realize that. I'm just trying to find the best way to do both. I agree that being second trimester if possible over the summer would be best, and I think that's what we're going to aim for.


I understand you were being glib, but I want to add that I don't think that the first sentence is even true. Staying at home drives a lot of women crazy. And the extra income has real benefits for kids (college tuition is expensive!). White Americans are under this delusion that childhood has to be this perfect thing where attention is lavished on children and the whole world is rearranged for their benefit (suburban sprawl exists for pretty much this exact reason).

The fact of the matter is that kids won't remember all the extra attention you give them before the age of 5. I have a mom that gave up a professional career to stay at home until I was 5-6, and a dad that was traveling for 3-4 months out of the year during that time. I honestly don't really remember any of that time, and while I can appreciate, in retrospect, at an intellectual level my mom's staying home, honestly it doesn't make me feel any different towards her nor do I think it made me turn out any better.

By all means try to spend as much time with your children as you can, but remember that until they're teenagers it's really more for you than it is for them.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 8:53 am

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:The best thing do to for your career is to not have kids.



And the best thing I can do for my future kids is to not have a career. I realize that. I'm just trying to find the best way to do both. I agree that being second trimester if possible over the summer would be best, and I think that's what we're going to aim for.


I understand you were being glib, but I want to add that I don't think that the first sentence is even true. Staying at home drives a lot of women crazy. And the extra income has real benefits for kids (college tuition is expensive!). White Americans are under this delusion that childhood has to be this perfect thing where attention is lavished on children and the whole world is rearranged for their benefit (suburban sprawl exists for pretty much this exact reason).

The fact of the matter is that kids won't remember all the extra attention you give them before the age of 5. I have a mom that gave up a professional career to stay at home until I was 5-6, and a dad that was traveling for 3-4 months out of the year during that time. I honestly don't really remember any of that time, and while I can appreciate, in retrospect, at an intellectual level my mom's staying home, honestly it doesn't make me feel any different towards her nor do I think it made me turn out any better.

By all means try to spend as much time with your children as you can, but remember that until they're teenagers it's really more for you than it is for them.



Oh no, don't get me wrong I totally agree with you. I know my kids will be fine and won't remember how much I worked when they were little. My dad worked three jobs when I was little, I only saw him on weekends until I was about 13. I think I turned out ok. I was just saying that because that's how people often see it, as a black and white issue- to do well you either have to give up everything for your career or give up everything for your kids. I really don't believe that. Balance has benefits.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 8:54 am



Two other people posted the same story before you.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Paichka » Fri May 25, 2012 9:08 am

dresden doll wrote:
IAFG wrote:
There's a lot of really shitty advice ITT that would result in having a baby being far more disruptive to your career by waiting longer (like trying to not have distractions for the bar... what?!).


THANK YOU. I don't know how people who can't manage 4 hour Bar Bri videos five days a week with a kid around hope to have kids, like ever.

The shit part about having kids as a student isn't the time commitment. It's the severely strained budget that comes with raising a kid on COL loans that are practically below the poverty line.


The budget part is true, but hopefully the baby daddy is pitching in with money and other support.

My kids are older (3 and 1) and I don't have any problem with the bar prep so far -- but newborns are a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I was incredibly sleep deprived and my son screamed his little head off until he was twelve weeks old (yay colic). The day care centers around here don't take kids until they're 6 weeks old, and newborns require a lot of care...you can't park them in front of a Dora video while you're doing other things. I was a zombie the first few weeks after both of my kids were born, and I know that I wouldn't want to go through bar prep with a newborn. A slightly older kid, yes, but a brand new one? Not on your life, if I could at all help it. That's my perspective and it certainly isn't the only one. If you DID have a newborn during barprep, you'd make it work, just like people have been making it work for years.

I really don't think any of the advice given here is shitty though -- OP (or anyone in the same shoes) should consider as many views as she can before making a decision. I'm not sure there's a 100% RIGHT one -- kids are disruptive whenever you have them.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri May 25, 2012 9:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:


Two other people posted the same story before you.


I have only had one pot of coffee today; apparently, that means I'm blind. Whoops.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby ruski » Fri May 25, 2012 9:31 am

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:The best thing do to for your career is to not have kids.



And the best thing I can do for my future kids is to not have a career. I realize that. I'm just trying to find the best way to do both. I agree that being second trimester if possible over the summer would be best, and I think that's what we're going to aim for.


I understand you were being glib, but I want to add that I don't think that the first sentence is even true. Staying at home drives a lot of women crazy. And the extra income has real benefits for kids (college tuition is expensive!). White Americans are under this delusion that childhood has to be this perfect thing where attention is lavished on children and the whole world is rearranged for their benefit (suburban sprawl exists for pretty much this exact reason).

The fact of the matter is that kids won't remember all the extra attention you give them before the age of 5. I have a mom that gave up a professional career to stay at home until I was 5-6, and a dad that was traveling for 3-4 months out of the year during that time. I honestly don't really remember any of that time, and while I can appreciate, in retrospect, at an intellectual level my mom's staying home, honestly it doesn't make me feel any different towards her nor do I think it made me turn out any better.

By all means try to spend as much time with your children as you can, but remember that until they're teenagers it's really more for you than it is for them.


dude this is wrong on so many levels. you say "honestly it doesn't make me feel any different towards her nor do I think it made me turn out any better." you can't really say this unless you can go back in time, not have your mom stay home, then see how you come out. i see so many kids nowadays that have such a strong attachment to their full time nanny, that to say it has no long term consequences with these kids relationships with their parents is absurd.

its like saying, my parents used to drop me all the time when i was a kid, but its ok because i can't remember any of it. just because you can't remember doesn't mean there weren't any effects. most (all?) kids don't remember being breastmilked either, but plenty of studies have shown it does make an impact

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby piccolittle » Fri May 25, 2012 10:01 am

ruski wrote:dude this is wrong on so many levels. you say "honestly it doesn't make me feel any different towards her nor do I think it made me turn out any better." you can't really say this unless you can go back in time, not have your mom stay home, then see how you come out. i see so many kids nowadays that have such a strong attachment to their full time nanny, that to say it has no long term consequences with these kids relationships with their parents is absurd.

its like saying, my parents used to drop me all the time when i was a kid, but its ok because i can't remember any of it. just because you can't remember doesn't mean there weren't any effects. most (all?) kids don't remember being breastmilked either, but plenty of studies have shown it does make an impact

I hate this attitude. I actually think stay-at-home moms are less healthy for their children. Kids are narcissistic by nature; eventually it's going to be a shock for them to wake up and realize the world doesn't revolve around them, if their mom has been helicoptering around them forever. My mom worked from the day I was born, and we have an extremely close relationship. I know that personally, I wouldn't be able to respect a mother who essentially gave up her career for me - it's a lot of pressure and I respect my mother's ambition (and the things she's been able to provide for me because of it). I started preschool at 1.5 years, and I saw my mom every day after her work from then on. It's not like the hours a stay-at-home mom spends at home while you're out of the house benefit you as the child at all.

Sorry, rant over. That's just my opinion.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 25, 2012 10:12 am

piccolittle wrote:
ruski wrote:dude this is wrong on so many levels. you say "honestly it doesn't make me feel any different towards her nor do I think it made me turn out any better." you can't really say this unless you can go back in time, not have your mom stay home, then see how you come out. i see so many kids nowadays that have such a strong attachment to their full time nanny, that to say it has no long term consequences with these kids relationships with their parents is absurd.

its like saying, my parents used to drop me all the time when i was a kid, but its ok because i can't remember any of it. just because you can't remember doesn't mean there weren't any effects. most (all?) kids don't remember being breastmilked either, but plenty of studies have shown it does make an impact

I hate this attitude. I actually think stay-at-home moms are less healthy for their children. Kids are narcissistic by nature; eventually it's going to be a shock for them to wake up and realize the world doesn't revolve around them, if their mom has been helicoptering around them forever. My mom worked from the day I was born, and we have an extremely close relationship. I know that personally, I wouldn't be able to respect a mother who essentially gave up her career for me - it's a lot of pressure and I respect my mother's ambition (and the things she's been able to provide for me because of it). I started preschool at 1.5 years, and I saw my mom every day after her work from then on. It's not like the hours a stay-at-home mom spends at home while you're out of the house benefit you as the child at all.

Sorry, rant over. That's just my opinion.


You guys are both right. Whether you work or stay at home you can be an excellent or a terrible parent. Some stay at home moms definitely do create nasty, entitled children. Others don't. Some working parents let their kids be raised by nannies, others have family watch their kids. Obviously whether you work or not has an effect on your children, but it certainly isn't the only factor in how your kids come out.

(Sidenote- some parents control their children in public. Others are next to me in Starbucks letting their kids run around screaming and knocking things over while they ignore them and chat over coffee. Assholes.)

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby iiifly » Fri May 25, 2012 2:30 pm

[I'm no longer in the business of giving advice]
Last edited by iiifly on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pregnant 2L Summer

Postby rayiner » Fri May 25, 2012 2:44 pm

Kids get attached to their nannies, so what? I spent the first five years in a very traditional culture where kids are raised by family groups, and kids get very attached to aunts, etc. The American suburban fantasy of a stay at home wife raising kids with intensive involvement in isolation is an unusual one. What do you think people did when we were hunters and gatherers? Women left their children with a few caretakers while they went to gather!
Last edited by rayiner on Fri May 25, 2012 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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