I want to wear a suit to work.

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dingbat
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby dingbat » Sat May 26, 2012 10:30 am

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP. I agree with your decision and everyone else's advice. Ive had to do the same in previous positions and will for my current summer position as well. While it kind of aggravates me, having money matters far more. What I can't figure out though, is that every time I get a comment similar to the ones you receive, it's almost like people think you're actively trying to out do them or make them look bad. But Ive always thought suits were EASIER than business casual or almost any other attire only because all I need to do is choose my shirt and tie which is a lot easier than putting together an outfit and making sure everything matches.


Can someone please explain this one to me?

Isn't a suit exactly the same as business casual, but with two additional elements??

That's my understanding

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Bronte
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Bronte » Sat May 26, 2012 10:49 am

dingbat wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:Can someone please explain this one to me?

Isn't a suit exactly the same as business casual, but with two additional elements??

That's my understanding


A suit without a tie and/or jacket qualifies as business casual. But business casual is also a dress code that has a life of its own. People often wear a contrasting sport coat with business casual. People also do not necessarily wear their suit pants, but instead have a variety of separate wool pants.

But yes I agree that there's little reason business casual should be more difficult than business formal.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Sat May 26, 2012 1:19 pm

Wait, do people not understand that business casual can be khaki's or chinos? It is NOT just taking off your tie and coat. It can also be khaki's or chinos and a sport coat - go nuts!

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 26, 2012 1:21 pm

You in DC?

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 26, 2012 2:05 pm

Bronte wrote:
dingbat wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:Can someone please explain this one to me?

Isn't a suit exactly the same as business casual, but with two additional elements??

That's my understanding


A suit without a tie and/or jacket qualifies as business casual. But business casual is also a dress code that has a life of its own. People often wear a contrasting sport coat with business casual. People also do not necessarily wear their suit pants, but instead have a variety of separate wool pants.

But yes I agree that there's little reason business casual should be more difficult than business formal.


This. While a suit without tie and jacket suffices, there are a ton of wool pants (charcoal, dark grey, lighter grays and navy blues) that can be paired with a traditional Navy Blue/Charcoal/Grey SC and oxfords/wingtips. Some even claim bluchers are business cas.,but I tend to disagree.

I guess I shouldn't have said its more difficult. Its just a lot simpler to grab a suit, white / blue shirt and tie rather than on deciding whether to take a suit minus jacket and tie or a classic combo as well. It's not the end of the world, I just was saying that in my opinion it seems a bit strange to think of suits as more "difficult" as it's implied sometimes, but it doesn't bother me one way or the other.

mrloblaw
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby mrloblaw » Sat May 26, 2012 2:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:
dingbat wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:Can someone please explain this one to me?

Isn't a suit exactly the same as business casual, but with two additional elements??

That's my understanding


A suit without a tie and/or jacket qualifies as business casual. But business casual is also a dress code that has a life of its own. People often wear a contrasting sport coat with business casual. People also do not necessarily wear their suit pants, but instead have a variety of separate wool pants.

But yes I agree that there's little reason business casual should be more difficult than business formal.


This. While a suit without tie and jacket suffices, there are a ton of wool pants (charcoal, dark grey, lighter grays and navy blues) that can be paired with a traditional Navy Blue/Charcoal/Grey SC and oxfords/wingtips. Some even claim bluchers are business cas.,but I tend to disagree.

I guess I shouldn't have said its more difficult. Its just a lot simpler to grab a suit, white / blue shirt and tie rather than on deciding whether to take a suit minus jacket and tie or a classic combo as well. It's not the end of the world, I just was saying that in my opinion it seems a bit strange to think of suits as more "difficult" as it's implied sometimes, but it doesn't bother me one way or the other.


...I'm confused as to the terminology going on here.

(1) Why do people keep referring to a "suit without a jacket," or worse, "a suit without a jacket or tie"? What you're describing is a pair of odd trousers. They're no less odd pants just because, somewhere in the world, there happens to be an unused jacket that matches them.

Am I missing something here?

(2) Are you actually suggesting that balmorals are the proper 'business casual' shoe? Is this the consensus amongst lawyers? I couldn't imagine wearing my AE Strands or Park Avenues with less than a full suit. It just looks bizarre. Even at DoJ HQ, which is pretty stodgy, I see bluchers with suits pretty often (on high-ranking attorneys, no less), but almost never see bals with khakis or odd wool trousers.

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Bronte
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Bronte » Sat May 26, 2012 3:02 pm

mrloblaw wrote:...I'm confused as to the terminology going on here.

(1) Why do people keep referring to a "suit without a jacket," or worse, "a suit without a jacket or tie"? What you're describing is a pair of odd trousers. They're no less odd pants just because, somewhere in the world, there happens to be an unused jacket that matches them.

Am I missing something here?


People say "a suit without a jacket" because it's a way of conveying the attire to someone who's sartorial universe starts and ends with the jeans and t-shirt he wears every day and the suit he bought for interviews.

NotMyRealName09 wrote:Wait, do people not understand that business casual can be khaki's or chinos? It is NOT just taking off your tie and coat. It can also be khaki's or chinos and a sport coat - go nuts!


Creased wool pants and a dress shirt certainly is business casual, and it's the safest bet. Of course, everything down to jeans is sometimes referred to as business casual. See, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_casual. You just have to see what people at your workplace are wearing and go from there.

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 26, 2012 4:40 pm


...I'm confused as to the terminology going on here.

(1) Why do people keep referring to a "suit without a jacket," or worse, "a suit without a jacket or tie"? What you're describing is a pair of odd trousers. They're no less odd pants just because, somewhere in the world, there happens to be an unused jacket that matches them.

Am I missing something here?

(2) Are you actually suggesting that balmorals are the proper 'business casual' shoe? Is this the consensus amongst lawyers? I couldn't imagine wearing my AE Strands or Park Avenues with less than a full suit. It just looks bizarre. Even at DoJ HQ, which is pretty stodgy, I see bluchers with suits pretty often (on high-ranking attorneys, no less), but almost never see bals with khakis or odd wool trousers.


For one, see bronte's response. After hearing blazers /SCs referred to as suit jackets so often it seemed easiest to be as simple as possible lol.

As for two, it doesn't have to be a cap toe for it to be a balmoral/Oxford. I'm not sure which terminology you're using as I find that people often use different interpretations, but a balmoral classically is just a shoe with the eyelets under the vamp in my mind. They can be wingtips, captoes, plain toes, etc. Bluchers traditionally had them on the outside. I get what you're saying though, as even AE don't appear to use this definition anymore. I have these AE Tribecas below for casual wear whose eyelets are definitely under the vamp last I checked, yet they call them bluchers. I actually wonder if we'll ever restandardize our definitions internationally since the meanings have diverged so much.

http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/pr ... 0000001_-1

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby jkay » Sat May 26, 2012 5:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
As for two, it doesn't have to be a cap toe for it to be a balmoral/Oxford. I'm not sure which terminology you're using as I find that people often use different interpretations, but a balmoral classically is just a shoe with the eyelets under the vamp in my mind. They can be wingtips, captoes, plain toes, etc. Bluchers traditionally had them on the outside.


You are correct about the difference between bluchers (or derby) and balmorals. Balmorals are definitely more formal, and I think you are wrong about bluchers: they are actually better for business casual.

For example, here is a pair of AE Sanfords:

--ImageRemoved--

This is a blucher 100% percent appropriate for business casual. It's just an example, there are many others.

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 pm

Definitely can respect that opinion. And yea, I think sanfords are great. Usually when I think Blucher though I'm thinking either those square monsters Or some KC atrocities (not that all KCs are bad). I should probably stop being so judgemental.

Also I erred before, the Tribecas are bluchers and I do indeed wear them for business casual use as well at times. In fact, with my oxfords currently kind of screwed I may be wearing derbies with a suit next week :o

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Bronte
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Bronte » Sat May 26, 2012 6:45 pm

I agree that bluchers are fine for business casual but I don't see how there's anything weird about wearing balmorals with business casual, especially a dressier business casual.

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Yvonnella » Sat May 26, 2012 7:12 pm

TTRansfer wrote:
Agent wrote:Stop wearing the jacket. Yes you will likely run a serious risk of being pegged as a douchebag if you keep wearing it.


That's what I did. I love wearing a full suit but not a single person on my office outside the managing partner does.


The only people who will really frown at you for out-dressing them are the office children who don't want to be compelled to grow up and dress like professionals. People who wear suits merely inform others non-verbally that they take themselves seriously. What a horrible thought. And as a woman, I can tell you that a man in a tie catches my eye. He just does. If you like wearing suits, good for you! Suggestion: dress your best one day every week: you'll show the managing partner that you are perfectly comfortable looking like a professional if you need to, but going business casual the rest of the time, you'll show that you're not a snob who's simply out to upstage everyone else. And if anybody in the office has anything negative to say, just smile. They're the ones with the problem.

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dingbat
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby dingbat » Sun May 27, 2012 9:28 am

Yvonnella wrote:
TTRansfer wrote:
Agent wrote:Stop wearing the jacket. Yes you will likely run a serious risk of being pegged as a douchebag if you keep wearing it.


That's what I did. I love wearing a full suit but not a single person on my office outside the managing partner does.


The only people who will really frown at you for out-dressing them are the office children who don't want to be compelled to grow up and dress like professionals. People who wear suits merely inform others non-verbally that they take themselves seriously. What a horrible thought. And as a woman, I can tell you that a man in a tie catches my eye. He just does. If you like wearing suits, good for you! Suggestion: dress your best one day every week: you'll show the managing partner that you are perfectly comfortable looking like a professional if you need to, but going business casual the rest of the time, you'll show that you're not a snob who's simply out to upstage everyone else. And if anybody in the office has anything negative to say, just smile. They're the ones with the problem.

Is this a SA position or real employment? Are you talking low-level or major player?
Crash Davis wrote: Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob.

In a professional job, this quote should be interpreted as reflecting non-conformity

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun May 27, 2012 1:55 pm

dingbat wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:
TTRansfer wrote:
Agent wrote:Stop wearing the jacket. Yes you will likely run a serious risk of being pegged as a douchebag if you keep wearing it.


That's what I did. I love wearing a full suit but not a single person on my office outside the managing partner does.


The only people who will really frown at you for out-dressing them are the office children who don't want to be compelled to grow up and dress like professionals. People who wear suits merely inform others non-verbally that they take themselves seriously. What a horrible thought. And as a woman, I can tell you that a man in a tie catches my eye. He just does. If you like wearing suits, good for you! Suggestion: dress your best one day every week: you'll show the managing partner that you are perfectly comfortable looking like a professional if you need to, but going business casual the rest of the time, you'll show that you're not a snob who's simply out to upstage everyone else. And if anybody in the office has anything negative to say, just smile. They're the ones with the problem.


Is this a SA position or real employment? Are you talking low-level or major player?


I was speaking more of the low-level player, but my suggestion goes for any legal employment. People who work in a business casual setting, whether a law office or elsewhere, will find themselves being taken more seriously by others if they consistently dress in full professional attire at least one day a week. Just my opinion, but it's what I've experienced. And the funny remarks that others may make will die out when they see that the suit or dress is a steady pattern of behavior. Obviously, it's not a substitute for doing a good job. But being routinely well-dressed and well-groomed while performing well on the job can elevate a person a notch or two above her peers, who may perform just as well, yet don't appear comfortable or normal in professional attire.

mrloblaw
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby mrloblaw » Sun May 27, 2012 5:29 pm

Bronte wrote:I agree that bluchers are fine for business casual but I don't see how there's anything weird about wearing balmorals with business casual, especially a dressier business casual.


It's not weird so much as it can look a bit funny, I think. By their design, bals are a little more sleek and less bulky than bluchers. This makes them work nicely with worsted wool suits, but it seems to me that there can be balance issues when wearing them with heavier fabrics, like jeans, chinos or heavier wools (tweed, etc.). if I was going to wear balmorals with such pants, I'd want some other sort of stylistic feature that made the shoes bulkier, like a double sole.

Most people probably won't notice (or care?), though. I get a lot of compliments on the rare occasions when I wear my strands with khakis or jeans. I've never had someone comment that they look disproportionate or out of place.

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 27, 2012 7:59 pm

Yvonnella wrote:I was speaking more of the low-level player, but my suggestion goes for any legal employment. People who work in a business casual setting, whether a law office or elsewhere, will find themselves being taken more seriously by others if they consistently dress in full professional attire at least one day a week. Just my opinion, but it's what I've experienced. And the funny remarks that others may make will die out when they see that the suit or dress is a steady pattern of behavior. Obviously, it's not a substitute for doing a good job. But being routinely well-dressed and well-groomed while performing well on the job can elevate a person a notch or two above her peers, who may perform just as well, yet don't appear comfortable or normal in professional attire.


No. If you work in a truly business casual environment, then you don't wear a suit. You wear a suit when appropriate for the occasion - i.e., hearings, meetings with clients (if appropriate), etc. Being a professional isn't about wearing a suit or "playing grown up." Being a professional is about dressing appropriately for the situation. Now, if you work in an environment where it's normal for people to wear suits, then it's appropriate to wear a suit.

mrloblaw
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby mrloblaw » Sun May 27, 2012 8:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:I was speaking more of the low-level player, but my suggestion goes for any legal employment. People who work in a business casual setting, whether a law office or elsewhere, will find themselves being taken more seriously by others if they consistently dress in full professional attire at least one day a week. Just my opinion, but it's what I've experienced. And the funny remarks that others may make will die out when they see that the suit or dress is a steady pattern of behavior. Obviously, it's not a substitute for doing a good job. But being routinely well-dressed and well-groomed while performing well on the job can elevate a person a notch or two above her peers, who may perform just as well, yet don't appear comfortable or normal in professional attire.


No. If you work in a truly business casual environment, then you don't wear a suit. You wear a suit when appropriate for the occasion - i.e., hearings, meetings with clients (if appropriate), etc. Being a professional isn't about wearing a suit or "playing grown up." Being a professional is about dressing appropriately for the situation. Now, if you work in an environment where it's normal for people to wear suits, then it's appropriate to wear a suit.


+1. Dressing appropriately is about context. You can always get by with (and possibly impress your boss with) being slightly overdressed for the occasion, but if your firm is truly business casual, wearing a suit is just as out of place as flip flops and ratty jeans are at a white shoe firm.

Wearing a morning coat to a gig at McDonald's is not the way to "elevate" yourself.

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby goodolgil » Sun May 27, 2012 8:38 pm

Think I could get away with wearing a pair of Clark's Dessert Boots for biz cas?

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dingbat
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby dingbat » Sun May 27, 2012 8:40 pm

goodolgil wrote:Think I could get away with wearing a pair of Clark's Dessert Boots for biz cas?

Only if you wear a top hat and tails

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dresden doll
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby dresden doll » Sun May 27, 2012 8:45 pm

Yvonnella wrote:
The only people who will really frown at you for out-dressing them are the office children who don't want to be compelled to grow up and dress like professionals. People who wear suits merely inform others non-verbally that they take themselves seriously. What a horrible thought. And as a woman, I can tell you that a man in a tie catches my eye. He just does. If you like wearing suits, good for you! Suggestion: dress your best one day every week: you'll show the managing partner that you are perfectly comfortable looking like a professional if you need to, but going business casual the rest of the time, you'll show that you're not a snob who's simply out to upstage everyone else. And if anybody in the office has anything negative to say, just smile. They're the ones with the problem.


Yes, being snide towards coworkers who are themselves dressed in accordance with the workplace dress code because you think you have a better idea of what the workplace dress code should be is a surefire way to get ahead.

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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Helmholtz » Sun May 27, 2012 9:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:I was speaking more of the low-level player, but my suggestion goes for any legal employment. People who work in a business casual setting, whether a law office or elsewhere, will find themselves being taken more seriously by others if they consistently dress in full professional attire at least one day a week. Just my opinion, but it's what I've experienced. And the funny remarks that others may make will die out when they see that the suit or dress is a steady pattern of behavior. Obviously, it's not a substitute for doing a good job. But being routinely well-dressed and well-groomed while performing well on the job can elevate a person a notch or two above her peers, who may perform just as well, yet don't appear comfortable or normal in professional attire.


No. If you work in a truly business casual environment, then you don't wear a suit. You wear a suit when appropriate for the occasion - i.e., hearings, meetings with clients (if appropriate), etc. Being a professional isn't about wearing a suit or "playing grown up." Being a professional is about dressing appropriately for the situation. Now, if you work in an environment where it's normal for people to wear suits, then it's appropriate to wear a suit.


Agree with this. Business casual ends up being a pretty broad spectrum, and one can find some place along that spectrum that works for them. Throw on a sharp dark-blue or light-gray blazer over a tieless shirt if you want to step things up. Wear a pair of dressy loafers if you want to step things down. Not that hard.

goodolgil
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby goodolgil » Sun May 27, 2012 10:33 pm

dingbat wrote:
goodolgil wrote:Think I could get away with wearing a pair of Clark's Dessert Boots for biz cas?

Only if you wear a top hat and tails


IONO, they're not sneakers or anything enumerated as prohibited on the dress code policy. I'll probably wait a few weeks and then go for it. They are so comfortable.

mrloblaw
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby mrloblaw » Sun May 27, 2012 10:41 pm

goodolgil wrote:
dingbat wrote:
goodolgil wrote:Think I could get away with wearing a pair of Clark's Dessert Boots for biz cas?

Only if you wear a top hat and tails


IONO, they're not sneakers or anything enumerated as prohibited on the dress code policy. I'll probably wait a few weeks and then go for it. They are so comfortable.


Where are you working that you'd want to wear boots in June? Antarctica?

goodolgil
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby goodolgil » Mon May 28, 2012 3:24 am

You've never seen Clarks before I take it.

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Yvonnella
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Re: I want to wear a suit to work.

Postby Yvonnella » Mon May 28, 2012 8:29 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:
The only people who will really frown at you for out-dressing them are the office children who don't want to be compelled to grow up and dress like professionals. People who wear suits merely inform others non-verbally that they take themselves seriously. What a horrible thought. And as a woman, I can tell you that a man in a tie catches my eye. He just does. If you like wearing suits, good for you! Suggestion: dress your best one day every week: you'll show the managing partner that you are perfectly comfortable looking like a professional if you need to, but going business casual the rest of the time, you'll show that you're not a snob who's simply out to upstage everyone else. And if anybody in the office has anything negative to say, just smile. They're the ones with the problem.


Yes, being snide towards coworkers who are themselves dressed in accordance with the workplace dress code because you think you have a better idea of what the workplace dress code should be is a surefire way to get ahead.


I've never taken a smile to be snide.




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