Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

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Mark71121
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Mark71121 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:12 am

lol @ going to a T30 school and expecting a job. you knew the odds were stacked against you, you gambled and lost. feeling bad for yourself isn't the answer. either work harder and hustle for a legal job or drop out and change careers. i certainly don't feel bad for you.

premier2t
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby premier2t » Mon May 21, 2012 11:26 am

Mark71121 wrote:lol @ going to a T30 school and expecting a job. you knew the odds were stacked against you, you gambled and lost. feeling bad for yourself isn't the answer. either work harder and hustle for a legal job or drop out and change careers. i certainly don't feel bad for you.


Gawsh, you're a prick.

MrAnon
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby MrAnon » Mon May 21, 2012 11:32 am

What is the big surprise here? You are in the same boat as everyone else with middling to bad grades at a T20-T30.

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20121109
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby 20121109 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:33 am

URM partners tend to support URM law students any way they can. Are you making connections with the right people? Seeking personal and professional mentorship is incredibly important. They will advocate on your behalf when you are not in the room and give you invaluable advice. Also, as a URM make sure you exhaust the resources of your affinity groups! To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners. Such opportunities can be hugely instrumental!

Mark71121
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Mark71121 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:36 am

premier2t wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:lol @ going to a T30 school and expecting a job. you knew the odds were stacked against you, you gambled and lost. feeling bad for yourself isn't the answer. either work harder and hustle for a legal job or drop out and change careers. i certainly don't feel bad for you.


Gawsh, you're a prick.


why? for speaking the truth? every internet law school forum/blog drills home the fact that the job market is terrible and that unless you go to a top school, the employment prospects are grim. OP was either too lazy to do his research or was fully aware of the risks and went to law school anyway. either way, i don't see any reason to feel bad for people like this.

rad lulz
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby rad lulz » Mon May 21, 2012 11:37 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners.

Ehhhhhhhhhh

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20121109
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby 20121109 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:39 am

rad lulz wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners.

Ehhhhhhhhhh


There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI. There is no URM boost in employment like there is for LS admissions. It's mostly the opportunity to attend minority fairs and apply for diversity fellowships. If you don't have the grades or WE, your URMness won't save you.

rad lulz
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby rad lulz » Mon May 21, 2012 11:45 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners.

Ehhhhhhhhhh


There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI. There is no URM boost in employment like there is for LS admissions. It's mostly the opportunity to attend minority fairs and apply for diversity fellowships. If you don't have the grades or WE, your URMness won't save you.

It won't, but I saw black people (not any other URM type) getting a very distinct employment boost apart from just diversity fellowships and being able to go to job fairs come 2L OCI.

But I guess this isn't the place to discuss this.

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hichvichwoh
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby hichvichwoh » Mon May 21, 2012 11:50 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners.

Ehhhhhhhhhh


There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI. There is no URM boost in employment like there is for LS admissions. It's mostly the opportunity to attend minority fairs and apply for diversity fellowships. If you don't have the grades or WE, your URMness won't save you.


The existence of URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI does not mean that there is no URM boost in employment. Before I get flamed let me specify that I don't know one way or the other whether URMs do get an employment boost, I'm just saying that this statement doesn't prove that they don't.

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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 21, 2012 11:51 am

Are you applying to jobs by sending your resume via email or simplicity? If so, stop. Pick up the phone and start making phone calls.

Attend events with attorney. Join your local bar association. Attend those meetings. Take a volunteer role with them. URM? Join those affinity groups. Contact people that look like you.

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20121109
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby 20121109 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:53 am

rad lulz wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners.

Ehhhhhhhhhh


There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI. There is no URM boost in employment like there is for LS admissions. It's mostly the opportunity to attend minority fairs and apply for diversity fellowships. If you don't have the grades or WE, your URMness won't save you.

It won't, but I saw black people (not any other URM type) getting a very distinct employment boost apart from just diversity fellowships and being able to go to job fairs come 2L OCI.

But I guess this isn't the place to discuss this.


Actually considering this is a thread about a URM finding it difficult to secure employment, the topic may be somewhat tangential, but I will allow it.

What I've seen is that firms send out that little self-identification form before interview season to get a cross-section of their application pool. Of course, the applicant pool is initially diverse, but the callback pool is considerable less so. My understanding is that if they have very few URMs in the callback pool or SA class, they can use that self-identification form to easily point minorities who failed to meet the firm's hiring standards and there was no "discrimination" on their part. They simply were just not up to par. As long as they justify it, taking very few URMs in a SA class is "ok."

But in OP's case, if he had middling or below median grades at a T14, I would imagine he would have had better luck in securing an SA in big-mid law. The T20-30 rank is definitely working against him, just like everyone else in his position URM or not.

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20121109
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby 20121109 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:55 am

hichvichwoh wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:To be honest, this is the only boost we have in employment; increased face time with associates and partners.

Ehhhhhhhhhh


There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI. There is no URM boost in employment like there is for LS admissions. It's mostly the opportunity to attend minority fairs and apply for diversity fellowships. If you don't have the grades or WE, your URMness won't save you.


The existence of URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI does not mean that there is no URM boost in employment. Before I get flamed let me specify that I don't know one way or the other whether URMs do get an employment boost, I'm just saying that this statement doesn't prove that they don't.


Yeah, that was merely an anecdote so please consider it of little probative value. URM boosts in employment are very debatable, and I am willing to moderate its discourse if anyone is willing to partake.

rad lulz
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby rad lulz » Mon May 21, 2012 11:58 am

Also, if we're gonna discuss, it should be about just a general minority boost (as opposed to solely URMs) because East and South Asians show up to diversity fairs and get hired for diversity SA positions.

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20121109
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby 20121109 » Mon May 21, 2012 12:00 pm

rad lulz wrote:Also, if we're gonna discuss, it should be about just a general minority boost (as opposed to solely URMs) because East and South Asians show up to diversity fairs and get hired for diversity SA positions.


I have no problem with this. Better to be over-inclusive than under-inclusive if non-URM minorities also enjoy a hiring "boost."

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hichvichwoh
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby hichvichwoh » Mon May 21, 2012 12:53 pm

Are there any good ways to determine this one way or the other? I mean, if we had complete information we could try comparing the GPAs and WE of diversity hires vs the rest, but I don't know what kind of info actually gets released.

lifehopeful
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby lifehopeful » Mon May 21, 2012 2:03 pm

Thank you all for the sound advice. Another caveat that is working against is the fact that I am also going to a school not in the state that I want to work in. However, I do have an assortment of ties in the state that I ultimately want to end up in.

I have met with many people, joined a few local bar associations, and attended some events so far during my law school career but, again, to no avail. This summer I can attend a lot more local bar events and attempt meeting with more people with the potential free time I have since I have no job at the moment. It seems like my event window to secure gainful employment is closing rapidly as I commence my 3L year in a few months.

And, to the poster who commented on my appearance...I am a young, good-looking, clean, weight/height-proportiate male. So, I don't think that is the problem.

Also, as for my resume, I am young (matriculated right to LS from undergrad) and do not have any interesting/relevant experience aside from a smaller law firm gig last summer. Perhaps, not only my grades but my lack of work experience is hindering things right now?

vegeta
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby vegeta » Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 pm

Is there a city attorney's office or some sort of nonprofit or something unpaid you can do this summer? I know it might not be what you expect, but I think it's important to not have a big gap on your resume. Work hard at that non-paid position of course, though.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue May 22, 2012 9:53 am

I wouldn't mind participating in an URM discussion.

Some people who may not understand this may call the following statement a flame, but it's true: the legal sector is not integrated (neither the public nor the private sector). While it's true that most, if not all, employes have at least 1-2 URMs, that, in my experience, appears to be a mere formality so that no third party (i.e. the news) could accuse the employer of discrimination (when that is in fact what they are doing). Please don't mistake the above as whining, as it's generally quite true (as it is in engineering, and, to a certain extent, in medicine).

I would generally caution URMs from choosing law school unless they have a significant amount of family money so that they wouldn't need a financial return on investment or someone in their family is lawyer who could train/hire them.

Personally, I'm fine in the employment area (thank God). But I know a lot of people that probably won't be, either because of debt or lack of employment prospects (both recent grads and grads that have been out for 3+ years).

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TatNurner
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby TatNurner » Tue May 22, 2012 12:20 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI.


Wow really? Can you speak more to this? What do you think were the main reasons why they struck out? Bad interviewing/grades/no WE? Roughly what proportion of URMs at H struck out? What are they doing now?

Regarding the discussion about how much URM boost helps in hiring, my experience from hiring in another field is that URM is great if you are qualified. People will fight over you. However, if you are less qualified than the general candidate pool, then the boost is by no means guaranteed and it can go either way, with a whole host of other issues coming into play.

PMan99
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby PMan99 » Tue May 22, 2012 12:45 pm

TatNurner wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI.


Wow really? Can you speak more to this? What do you think were the main reasons why they struck out? Bad interviewing/grades/no WE? Roughly what proportion of URMs at H struck out? What are they doing now?

Regarding the discussion about how much URM boost helps in hiring, my experience from hiring in another field is that URM is great if you are qualified. People will fight over you. However, if you are less qualified than the general candidate pool, then the boost is by no means guaranteed and it can go either way, with a whole host of other issues coming into play.


I know one who struck out at OCI but it was due to a poor bidding strategy. He ended up landing on his feet with a V-whatever job in NY.

As to the second part of your post, I'd say that seems to be true. At least at diversity fairs (and presumably that carries over to generally), median and especially sub-median URMs struggle just like everyone else in those categories. The CW says that above median URMs clean up at those diversity fairs though...

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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 22, 2012 11:48 pm

TatNurner wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI.


Wow really? Can you speak more to this? What do you think were the main reasons why they struck out? Bad interviewing/grades/no WE? Roughly what proportion of URMs at H struck out? What are they doing now?

Regarding the discussion about how much URM boost helps in hiring, my experience from hiring in another field is that URM is great if you are qualified. People will fight over you. However, if you are less qualified than the general candidate pool, then the boost is by no means guaranteed and it can go either way, with a whole host of other issues coming into play.


This is so true. The URMs at my school who had the trifecta of good grades (I'm talking top 30-40%, nothing amazing), personality, and a pleasing appearance simply swept OCI.

So many people underestimate how far appearance goes in hiring. By all means PLEASE buy a NORMAL suit (no freaky, strange colors or cuts) that fits, isn't too short, with blouses that aren't too revealing. Brush your hair. Don't overdo the perfume/cologne. Watch the eyeliner. Shower. Bathe. If you're 20+ lb overweight, consider losing a little weight over the summer, or really pay attention to the clothes you buy for OCI. (I know that's a horrible thing to say but I saw multiple people in the top 15% of my class strike out of OCI. They were all either looked like train wrecks or were overweight and sloppy with it. One, who was not a URM, didn't wash her hair for two weeks).

If you have mediocre or poor grades and are a URM, you have no business expecting to get a biglaw job unless you have a personal connection. You will probably have a harder time finding something with mediocre grades than a non-URM. Network, join affinity groups, apply to fellowships, develop a relationship with a professor who may be able to write a LOR or hook you up with something.

Anonymous User
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 22, 2012 11:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
TatNurner wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI.


Wow really? Can you speak more to this? What do you think were the main reasons why they struck out? Bad interviewing/grades/no WE? Roughly what proportion of URMs at H struck out? What are they doing now?

Regarding the discussion about how much URM boost helps in hiring, my experience from hiring in another field is that URM is great if you are qualified. People will fight over you. However, if you are less qualified than the general candidate pool, then the boost is by no means guaranteed and it can go either way, with a whole host of other issues coming into play.


This is so true. The URMs at my school who had the trifecta of good grades (I'm talking top 30-40%, nothing amazing), personality, and a pleasing appearance simply swept OCI.

So many people underestimate how far appearance goes in hiring. By all means PLEASE buy a NORMAL suit (no freaky, strange colors or cuts) that fits, isn't too short, with blouses that aren't too revealing. Brush your hair. Don't overdo the perfume/cologne. Watch the eyeliner. Shower. Bathe. If you're 20+ lb overweight, consider losing a little weight over the summer, or really pay attention to the clothes you buy for OCI. (I know that's a horrible thing to say but I saw multiple people in the top 15% of my class strike out of OCI. They were all either looked like train wrecks or were overweight and sloppy with it. One, who was not a URM, didn't wash her hair for two weeks).

If you have mediocre or poor grades and are a URM, you have no business expecting to get a biglaw job unless you have a personal connection. You will probably have a harder time finding something with mediocre grades than a non-URM. Network, join affinity groups, apply to fellowships, develop a relationship with a professor who may be able to write a LOR or hook you up with something.


What school do you go to? I find it hard to believe that simply being overweight could hurt you so much that if you did everything else ok you strike out with top 15% grades.

Anonymous User
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 23, 2012 8:45 am

I just wanted to say keep your head up man. I'm fighting it off too, but I'm only a rising 2L, but I don't like my odds right now. URM as well. At a "T6" sure, but straight Bs does not have me feeling comfortable in the least. I've been feeling like a disappointment pretty much all semester and I just got a B for the first grade back. I know our situations aren't the same but I understand where you're coming from. I'm straight through as well, and never before in my life have I tried hard at something only to be mediocre. Humbling experience to be sure.

Anonymous User
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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 24, 2012 9:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
TatNurner wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
There are URMs at Harvard who struck out in OCI.


Wow really? Can you speak more to this? What do you think were the main reasons why they struck out? Bad interviewing/grades/no WE? Roughly what proportion of URMs at H struck out? What are they doing now?

Regarding the discussion about how much URM boost helps in hiring, my experience from hiring in another field is that URM is great if you are qualified. People will fight over you. However, if you are less qualified than the general candidate pool, then the boost is by no means guaranteed and it can go either way, with a whole host of other issues coming into play.


This is so true. The URMs at my school who had the trifecta of good grades (I'm talking top 30-40%, nothing amazing), personality, and a pleasing appearance simply swept OCI.

So many people underestimate how far appearance goes in hiring. By all means PLEASE buy a NORMAL suit (no freaky, strange colors or cuts) that fits, isn't too short, with blouses that aren't too revealing. Brush your hair. Don't overdo the perfume/cologne. Watch the eyeliner. Shower. Bathe. If you're 20+ lb overweight, consider losing a little weight over the summer, or really pay attention to the clothes you buy for OCI. (I know that's a horrible thing to say but I saw multiple people in the top 15% of my class strike out of OCI. They were all either looked like train wrecks or were overweight and sloppy with it. One, who was not a URM, didn't wash her hair for two weeks).

If you have mediocre or poor grades and are a URM, you have no business expecting to get a biglaw job unless you have a personal connection. You will probably have a harder time finding something with mediocre grades than a non-URM. Network, join affinity groups, apply to fellowships, develop a relationship with a professor who may be able to write a LOR or hook you up with something.


What school do you go to? I find it hard to believe that simply being overweight could hurt you so much that if you did everything else ok you strike out with top 15% grades.


I'm at CCN. I'm sure being overweight in and of itself isn't a death sentence, but at my school the overweight women didn't dress properly or have flattering suits. It was not just a matter of a suit being too big or too tight, but an entire unkempt appearance. Smudged makeup, opaque white tights with red shoes, messy hair that hadn't been brushed...an entire lack of care about their appearance. Men have it easier, in my opinion, because there are fewer appearance details they can really really screw up badly.

You don't have to believe me but I've been there done that. Just reminding people that looks are important.

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Re: Another Depressed (URM) Law Student Here...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:I just wanted to say keep your head up man. I'm fighting it off too, but I'm only a rising 2L, but I don't like my odds right now. URM as well. At a "T6" sure, but straight Bs does not have me feeling comfortable in the least. I've been feeling like a disappointment pretty much all semester and I just got a B for the first grade back. I know our situations aren't the same but I understand where you're coming from. I'm straight through as well, and never before in my life have I tried hard at something only to be mediocre. Humbling experience to be sure.


I'm right there with you man, URM at a t6, studied my ass off and little to show for it. X2 on the humbling experience, it's hard for me to admit that I really screwed up, I am hoping I can salvage something out of OCI. Stay up man, you aren't the only one out there feeling like you do.




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