Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

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Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 14, 2012 8:14 pm

I just finished 1L year at a lower T14. Although I don't have 2nd semester grades back yet, if first semester is any indication I will be somewhere in the middle.
ITE, do I have any chance at a PAID SA position, be it big law, medium law or any other kind of law?
How have others in my situation fared?
Thanks in advance

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ben4847
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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby ben4847 » Mon May 14, 2012 8:18 pm

Very good chances. Never a lock.
Brush up on your interviewing skills for real; do your homework on the firms for real; do mock interviews with OCS and anyone you know at firms; bid wisely; contact your contacts.

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rayiner
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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby rayiner » Mon May 14, 2012 8:19 pm

Probably better than even odds, but you'll likely skate by with 3-4 callbacks -> one offer. So you should definitely mass mail in August to all the 100+ attorney firms in areas you have connections to.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 14, 2012 8:31 pm

Anecdotal but that was exactly me before last year's OCI (just a hair below median in my case, lower-T14, non-URM, with a few years of irrelevant-but-interesting work experience). I wound up with 4 V50 offers and very happy with the firm I'll be starting at next week.

That said, I know a few people in the top 10%/law review/etc. who either got no offers or just one. I have a couple friends who are totally cool, normal, and in this top-of-the-class boat that didn't get anything. That's why I think a lot of it is - unfortunately - random and luck (the mood your interviewer was in, etc.). On the other hand, I have another friend who had below a 3.0 and landed a V50.

But my best advice to you would be: learn how to interview. Practice. Buy books with tips on interviewing (sounds cheesy but there's a lot to learn). Figure out a strategy (e.g. three things about yourself you want to convey in every interview). Research the hell out of every firm. That's what I did and it worked.

Disclaimer: I'm already an enthusiastic/outgoing person, but I think we can all put on an "outgoing" face for interviews.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 14, 2012 8:38 pm

Maybe your work experience helped. I have no work experience other than some menial summer jobs I held. I went from undergrad straight into law school. I guess I had better practice interviewing.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby buckilaw » Mon May 14, 2012 8:51 pm

ben4847 wrote:Very good chances. Never a lock.
Brush up on your interviewing skills for real; do your homework on the firms for real; do mock interviews with OCS and anyone you know at firms; bid wisely; contact your contacts.


Any recommendations on how to improve interviewing skills? What would you say are the best ways to prepare for OCI screeners and callback interviews?

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby LawIdiot86 » Mon May 14, 2012 9:06 pm

buckilaw wrote:
ben4847 wrote:Very good chances. Never a lock.
Brush up on your interviewing skills for real; do your homework on the firms for real; do mock interviews with OCS and anyone you know at firms; bid wisely; contact your contacts.


Any recommendations on how to improve interviewing skills? What would you say are the best ways to prepare for OCI screeners and callback interviews?


Mock interviews with OCS. Mock interviews with school alums in practice. Come up with a list of 100 questions and have your friends ask you them while you are drunk until you can nail a spontaneous story every time.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 14, 2012 9:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anecdotal but that was exactly me before last year's OCI (just a hair below median in my case, lower-T14, non-URM, with a few years of irrelevant-but-interesting work experience). I wound up with 4 V50 offers and very happy with the firm I'll be starting at next week.

That said, I know a few people in the top 10%/law review/etc. who either got no offers or just one. I have a couple friends who are totally cool, normal, and in this top-of-the-class boat that didn't get anything. That's why I think a lot of it is - unfortunately - random and luck (the mood your interviewer was in, etc.). On the other hand, I have another friend who had below a 3.0 and landed a V50.

But my best advice to you would be: learn how to interview. Practice. Buy books with tips on interviewing (sounds cheesy but there's a lot to learn). Figure out a strategy (e.g. three things about yourself you want to convey in every interview). Research the hell out of every firm. That's what I did and it worked.

Disclaimer: I'm already an enthusiastic/outgoing person, but I think we can all put on an "outgoing" face for interviews.


The interviewing skills/ outgoing/ positive is credited. Think of some interesting learning experiences you've had. Work on relating them in interviews, think of potential interview questions you might answer by using these experiences as an example.

If you can interview well and make your interviewer like you and think you're smart/positive, those skills can get you places law review sometimes can't.

Not everyone can be a fantastic interviewer, but everyone can work on it and improve.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby roaringeagle » Mon May 14, 2012 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anecdotal but that was exactly me before last year's OCI (just a hair below median in my case, lower-T14, non-URM, with a few years of irrelevant-but-interesting work experience). I wound up with 4 V50 offers and very happy with the firm I'll be starting at next week.

That said, I know a few people in the top 10%/law review/etc. who either got no offers or just one. I have a couple friends who are totally cool, normal, and in this top-of-the-class boat that didn't get anything. That's why I think a lot of it is - unfortunately - random and luck (the mood your interviewer was in, etc.). On the other hand, I have another friend who had below a 3.0 and landed a V50.

But my best advice to you would be: learn how to interview. Practice. Buy books with tips on interviewing (sounds cheesy but there's a lot to learn). Figure out a strategy (e.g. three things about yourself you want to convey in every interview). Research the hell out of every firm. That's what I did and it worked.

Disclaimer: I'm already an enthusiastic/outgoing person, but I think we can all put on an "outgoing" face for interviews.


If you are still here can you recommend the best interviewing book that you've read?

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby xcountryjunkie » Mon May 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby LawIdiot86 » Mon May 14, 2012 10:48 pm

xcountryjunkie wrote:Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.


Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby rayiner » Mon May 14, 2012 10:51 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
xcountryjunkie wrote:Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.


Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.


But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby LawIdiot86 » Mon May 14, 2012 11:13 pm

rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
xcountryjunkie wrote:Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.


Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.


But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.


Right, the firm with a 3.31 median and a class of 30 is much more desirable compared to the 3.25 firm with a class of 7.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 14, 2012 11:13 pm

rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
xcountryjunkie wrote:Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.


Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.


But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.


In the words of Miss South Carolina 2007, "like/such as?"

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rayiner
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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby rayiner » Mon May 14, 2012 11:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
xcountryjunkie wrote:Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.


Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.


But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.


In the words of Miss South Carolina 2007, "like/such as?"


Outside the V25, firms are willing to hire around median at T14. A substantial number of non-V25 firms have 15+ summers.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Helmholtz » Mon May 14, 2012 11:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
xcountryjunkie wrote:Bid NYC. Be personable. Odds are you'll grab something.


Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.


But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.


In the words of Miss South Carolina 2007, "like/such as?"


For New York: Weil, Latham, Shearman, Kirkland, Fried Frank, Milbank, White & Case, Dechert, and Schulte. All have decent-sized classes (at least they did last summer; I don't know this year's numbers) and regularly hire a lot of people from median from the T7–14 schools. At least according to the info I have (which is only based upon a few schools' data, so it might not be perfect across all of the T14).

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby cruelestgame » Mon May 14, 2012 11:43 pm

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Last edited by cruelestgame on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 14, 2012 11:44 pm

Yeah, let's have a factors balancing test/continuum... civ pro studying procrastination FTW.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue May 15, 2012 12:05 am

cruelestgame wrote:what do you guys think of smaller class sizes of the lower v100 being more selective (since smaller size) than say a higher ranking firm with a larger class? how would you balance/prioritize in bidding?


You have to do a table in Excel with at least four facts: Median GPA, Class Size, City, and Bids/Screener Ratio. Then cut out the cities you have no shot at, the GPAs that are laughably high or low and balance it between class size and bid/screener ratio to make sure you get a decent number of bids without focusing only on small classes.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 15, 2012 12:07 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
cruelestgame wrote:what do you guys think of smaller class sizes of the lower v100 being more selective (since smaller size) than say a higher ranking firm with a larger class? how would you balance/prioritize in bidding?


You have to do a table in Excel with at least four facts: Median GPA, Class Size, City, and Bids/Screener Ratio. Then cut out the cities you have no shot at, the GPAs that are laughably high or low and balance it between class size and bid/screener ratio to make sure you get a decent number of bids without focusing only on small classes.


Wow, thanks. That was actually really helpful.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby dabomb75 » Tue May 15, 2012 12:45 am

Helmholtz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Also, bid at or slightly below your GPA range. Don't load up on the lowest GPAs because those get the most bids and might not believe you want to be there. Be willing to reach slightly above your GPA if you have an unusual tie to the market or practice. Otherwise, stick to NYC and your home market.


But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.


In the words of Miss South Carolina 2007, "like/such as?"


For New York: Weil, Latham, Shearman, Kirkland, Fried Frank, Milbank, White & Case, Dechert, and Schulte. All have decent-sized classes (at least they did last summer; I don't know this year's numbers) and regularly hire a lot of people from median from the T7–14 schools. At least according to the info I have (which is only based upon a few schools' data, so it might not be perfect across all of the T14).


Curious as to how you got this information, and if it is at all publicly available. My T14 doesn't actually provide GPA breakdowns to us, but simply approximate grade range breakdowns (aka A/A-/B+/B) of those who got offers which is really unhelpful

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 15, 2012 12:53 am

I am graduating this weekend around median from GULC. I don't have a job. I worked for the federal government 2L summer and no one had the budget to hire me back, unfortunately.

The economy should be somewhat better for OCI next fall. Still, its entirely possible to fall flat. In my case, a poor bid strategy really hurt. Don't repeat my mistake. Do all of the homework suggested in this thread. Really think about what you bring to the table and how it will make firms lives easier. Sell yourself every second you are in the interview room.

Unfortunate things can happen so do your homework and be prepared. Coming from a T14 gives you a great opportunity but nothing is a given.

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rayiner
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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby rayiner » Tue May 15, 2012 1:15 am

dabomb75 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
But don't under-bid. Look for unselective firms with big class sizes.


In the words of Miss South Carolina 2007, "like/such as?"


For New York: Weil, Latham, Shearman, Kirkland, Fried Frank, Milbank, White & Case, Dechert, and Schulte. All have decent-sized classes (at least they did last summer; I don't know this year's numbers) and regularly hire a lot of people from median from the T7–14 schools. At least according to the info I have (which is only based upon a few schools' data, so it might not be perfect across all of the T14).


Curious as to how you got this information, and if it is at all publicly available. My T14 doesn't actually provide GPA breakdowns to us, but simply approximate grade range breakdowns (aka A/A-/B+/B) of those who got offers which is really unhelpful


It's exactly as helpful as it needs to be. Firms don't care about more than approximate grade range breakdowns. My year, at lower T14 your targets for NYC were basically:

Top 5% - WLRK
Top 20% - CSM, S&C, DPW, Cleary, etc
Top 35% - PW, Skadden, K&E, Weil, Deb, etc
Top 65% - Fried Frank, Cahill, etc
Top 80% - NY offices of non-elite non-NY firms

There's no point in going into finer gradations than that, because firms don't really make such fine distinctions. The way the curve is compressed, the difference between top 40% and top 60% is probably the difference between 3.25 and 3.4 on a curve like UVA's. Firms just aren't making micro-distinctions in that range.

Also, callback data tends to be supremely unhelpful. Firms will call back all the 3.7's they can get. But their callback median will be way above the median of the people who actually accept offers.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 15, 2012 8:39 am

If you're bidding NY and you're from another major market, come up with a good reason for wanting to be there. I know everyone says that isn't as big a deal for NY, and I'm sure they're right for the most part, but I ended up doing much worse in NY (only 2 CBs) than I did in DC. I felt like the firms were skeptical that I actually wanted to come to NY to do lit because I'm from the DC area.

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Re: Lower T14 with median grades..what are my chances for SA job

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 15, 2012 8:56 am

rayiner wrote:It's exactly as helpful as it needs to be. Firms don't care about more than approximate grade range breakdowns. My year, at lower T14 your targets for NYC were basically:

Top 5% - WLRK
Top 20% - CSM, S&C, DPW, Cleary, etc
Top 35% - PW, Skadden, K&E, Weil, Deb, etc
Top 65% - Fried Frank, Cahill, etc
Top 80% - NY offices of non-elite non-NY firms

There's no point in going into finer gradations than that, because firms don't really make such fine distinctions. The way the curve is compressed, the difference between top 40% and top 60% is probably the difference between 3.25 and 3.4 on a curve like UVA's. Firms just aren't making micro-distinctions in that range.

Also, callback data tends to be supremely unhelpful. Firms will call back all the 3.7's they can get. But their callback median will be way above the median of the people who actually accept offers.


Does work experience allow for bidding more aggressively in these tiers? For example, a couple years of public accounting between undergrad and law school. I'm hoping to sell the client service, long hours, financial statement knowledge, etc. Career services doesn't seem big on it, though.




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