Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

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Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 11, 2012 1:35 pm

I have a somewhat theoretical question. I graduated from MVNP, and I am working for a federal agency. I like my current job working for the federal government, but it is definitely not my life's calling. I am interested in pursuing a teaching career, though not 100% sure. I was recently accepted into GW IP LLM program. I know, I know LLMs are largely considered a waste of time and money here at TLS. However, I am really interested in building up my IP background (EE undergrad and grad at top engineering school) in a way that I was not able to at my former law school.

Would an IP LLM and a federal clerkship (at court with an IP focus perhaps) help with securing a teaching / research fellowship position (often a precursor to getting an assistant professor position) at a law school?

Any thoughts?

target
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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby target » Fri May 11, 2012 1:59 pm

I don't know the answer to your questions but just wonder why GW? If you already do a LLM, why not get one from a toppy top school?

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 11, 2012 2:35 pm

OP here: It would be great if I could go to Yale, Harvard, or Berkeley. However, I can't do that and work full-time (I like having some cash in my pocket). Besides, GW is very well respected in IP and the program allows me to work full-time. Furthermore, should teaching prove not to be an option in the future, I think the fact that the degree is an "llm in intellectual property" versus just an llm, may prove to be beneficial for signaling purposes. In other words, people will clearly see me as an someone who is really interested and skilled in intellectual property issues rather than some guy with yet another degree.

anli
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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby anli » Fri May 11, 2012 2:49 pm

If you want to teach, skip the LLM and start writing. The most important thing for an academic position a respectable list of publications. A clerkship would be helpful, but is not mandatory.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 11, 2012 2:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here: It would be great if I could go to Yale, Harvard, or Berkeley. However, I can't do that and work full-time (I like having some cash in my pocket). Besides, GW is very well respected in IP and the program allows me to work full-time. Furthermore, should teaching prove not to be an option in the future, I think the fact that the degree is an "llm in intellectual property" versus just an llm, may prove to be beneficial for signaling purposes. In other words, people will clearly see me as an someone who is really interested and skilled in intellectual property issues rather than some guy with yet another degree.


If your law school grades could not get you a BigLaw gig or Article III clerkship, they won't help you secure a teaching job. I don't think any LLM will help, for everyone knows LLM programs are tools for law schools to bring in as much cash as possible. Your best bet might be getting a Ph.D. in IP policy or something similar from a prestigious school.

For law teaching, your EE credentials help less than for getting a firm jerb.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby 09042014 » Fri May 11, 2012 2:53 pm

I doubt the IP LLM would make you more marketable.

A Fed. Cir. Clerkship probably would. Like someone else said, start writing.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 11, 2012 2:55 pm

[/quote]

If your law school grades could not get you a BigLaw gig or Article III clerkship, they won't help you secure a teaching job. I don't think any LLM will help, for everyone knows LLM programs are tools for law schools to bring in as much cash as possible. Your best bet might be getting a Ph.D. in IP policy or something similar from a prestigious school.

For law teaching, your EE credentials help less than for getting a firm jerb.[/quote]

where would you get that from-- hogwarts?

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 11, 2012 3:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have a somewhat theoretical question. I graduated from MVNP, and I am working for a federal agency. I like my current job working for the federal government, but it is definitely not my life's calling. I am interested in pursuing a teaching career, though not 100% sure. I was recently accepted into GW IP LLM program. I know, I know LLMs are largely considered a waste of time and money here at TLS. However, I am really interested in building up my IP background (EE undergrad and grad at top engineering school) in a way that I was not able to at my former law school.

Would an IP LLM and a federal clerkship (at court with an IP focus perhaps) help with securing a teaching / research fellowship position (often a precursor to getting an assistant professor position) at a law school?

Any thoughts?


yes i think it's a good idea. i'm not sure how it would hurt plus you could get some tuition reimbursement with the govt.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 11, 2012 3:37 pm

No. The only ppl with law prof shots are:
1. Chicago/MIT Econ PhD + Y-YLJ/H-magna-LR + DC Cir + SCOTUS + half dozen publications
2. Minority + YHS + Scotus

For patents, Lemley was #1 at Berkeley and clerked on 9 and prob could have clwrked on scotus. Duffy clerked on scotus.

orin kerr for cyber law who clerked for Kennedy and was magna at Harvard.

Basically u have no shot. Just do ip biglaw

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby johndhi » Sat May 12, 2012 11:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:No. The only ppl with law prof shots are:
1. Chicago/MIT Econ PhD + Y-YLJ/H-magna-LR + DC Cir + SCOTUS + half dozen publications
2. Minority + YHS + Scotus

For patents, Lemley was #1 at Berkeley and clerked on 9 and prob could have clwrked on scotus. Duffy clerked on scotus.

orin kerr for cyber law who clerked for Kennedy and was magna at Harvard.

Basically u have no shot. Just do ip biglaw


riiiiiiiiiight. you know there aren't enough of these people in the country to even nearly fill the faculty rosters of all the country's law schools, right?

anyways, I think if you do something like become a clinic fellow for a while, then you could possibly become a LRW or clinical professor at a lower-ranked school. I have a friend who did same from University of Texas followed by a state supreme clerkship.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 12, 2012 12:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No. The only ppl with law prof shots are:
1. Chicago/MIT Econ PhD + Y-YLJ/H-magna-LR + DC Cir + SCOTUS + half dozen publications
2. Minority + YHS + Scotus

For patents, Lemley was #1 at Berkeley and clerked on 9 and prob could have clwrked on scotus. Duffy clerked on scotus.

orin kerr for cyber law who clerked for Kennedy and was magna at Harvard.

Basically u have no shot. Just do ip biglaw


This is wrong. You've described what the top candidate(s) might look like each year. It's already insanely competitive enough--there's no need to exaggerate further the difficulty.

For look at what the current year of hires looked like, see http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... mmary.html .

To OP:
Have you been published? Is the stuff you've published good? That should be your main priority. If the LLM gives you the chance to try and crank out a publication or two, then it might be worth it. It might be useful to develop ideas for what you want your research agenda to look like, if you have no clue right now (and then you could try and work on a publication doing a clerkship). Basically, I think the LLM is not really helpful by itself for academia, but it could be helpful if it gives you either the time or the ideas for publications.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat May 12, 2012 12:15 pm

You mentioned that you wanted to do something that you could do while working full-time. As many people have said, publications are far more important than any secondary credential like a LLM--and you're probably not going to be able to do full-time work + LLM + writing.

Plus, "downgrading" your school for a LLM doesn't make any sense at all. I sincerely doubt that it would help you. I've flirted with academia, and asked a few people if a St. Johns LLM would make sense for someone looking to do bankruptcy (St. Johns had the top program for BK). I was universally told "no." I even asked whether doing a NYU Tax LLM and focusing on bankruptcy taxation would give me a leg up. Answer was "not as bad as the St. Johns LLM, but you're still better off just writing on your own." A SJD from Y would help, but that's a lot of your life dumped into an uncertain credential.

The best thing many people can do for academia is to go do a (respected) VAP for a year, and put out a publication or more during the VAP. That can't be done while working full time, obviously.

Your best bet is to just write on your own. A clerkship on DC Cir. wouldn't hurt. That said, you're going to be facing an uphill battle; you didn't go to the tier of school that has "decent" academia placement. The person who listed the ridiculous credentials is wrong: it is true that getting a job at a T20 school requires ridiculous credentials; other schools require very good, but not insane, stats.

You also didn't give an indication of what your grades were: that matters on the academic market, even if you've been out for awhile. If you weren't up toward the top of your class, you're probably sunk.
Last edited by ToTransferOrNot on Sat May 12, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shoeshine
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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby shoeshine » Sat May 12, 2012 12:16 pm

MVPN?

jarofsoup
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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby jarofsoup » Sat May 12, 2012 12:39 pm

LLM does not really give you that much of boost. PHD and JSD seem like good options. PHD and JSD/ JSD are good because you actually have to publish something. I am considering the JSD route for academics because it seems to be more or less a teaching degree.

I think JSD would also be good because you build relations with legal academics and would have someone to back you on the meat market.

But this is only if you are feeling a few more years of school, but I guess if you want to be a professor you are not ever going to leave.

On the Federal Clerkship I think this is also a must. Every one of my professors has clerked for an appellate level court. Either Federal Circuit or State Supreme.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby thesealocust » Sat May 12, 2012 3:32 pm

You will get hired based on your publications and publications potential - period. Everything else is minor signaling and activities pursued by those otherwise interested in academia (i.e. correlated with becoming a professor but not causal).

Publish publish. publish. Publish publish publish. Publish. Publish. Publish.

Publish publish.

Nothing else will get you the job or foreclose your getting the job.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Citizen Genet » Sat May 12, 2012 4:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No. The only ppl with law prof shots are:
1. Chicago/MIT Econ PhD + Y-YLJ/H-magna-LR + DC Cir + SCOTUS + half dozen publications
2. Minority + YHS + Scotus

For patents, Lemley was #1 at Berkeley and clerked on 9 and prob could have clwrked on scotus. Duffy clerked on scotus.

orin kerr for cyber law who clerked for Kennedy and was magna at Harvard.

Basically u have no shot. Just do ip biglaw


Obvious troll, but I'll point out that Prof. Kerr clerked for Justice Kennedy after being a professor for some time. He worked at DOJ Crim Div. before he became a professor. He was highly ranked at Harvard after having earned as Master's in some engineering field at Stanford (I think it was Stanford... if not there, somewhere else.)

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby vacate123 » Sat May 12, 2012 6:18 pm

Citizen Genet wrote:
Obvious troll, but I'll point out that Prof. Kerr clerked for Justice Kennedy after being a professor for some time. He worked at DOJ Crim Div. before he became a professor. He was highly ranked at Harvard after having earned as Master's in some engineering field at Stanford (I think it was Stanford... if not there, somewhere else.)


oh yeah OP, as our friend here who knows how to use the internet points out - Kerr is obviously a dumb idiot to get his SCOTUS clerkship only "after" being an Honors Trial Attorney. So, bottomline, sure, go follow the retarded professor Kerr and his less-than-stellar career and you are SURE to get tenure in any school of your choice.

Yes, getting prof job isn't so hard anymore. You just have to earn your Masters in some school like Stanford or somewhere else, and then graduate MAGNA from HLS, and then become an HONORS TRIAL ATTORNEY at the DOJ CRIMINAL DIVISION, and then backdoor that into a SCOTUS clerkship. Totally TTT.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Danteshek » Sat May 12, 2012 6:59 pm

Aren't many people forgetting that JSD usually requires an LLM to be admitted?

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 12, 2012 7:03 pm

Danteshek wrote:Aren't many people forgetting that JSD usually requires an LLM to be admitted?


That's typically for JSD programs intended for foriegn scholars. There are JSD programs aimed at both foreign and U.S. applicants, and just a j.d. or llm is required for these.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat May 12, 2012 7:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Aren't many people forgetting that JSD usually requires an LLM to be admitted?


That's typically for JSD programs intended for foriegn scholars. There are JSD programs aimed at both foreign and U.S. applicants, and just a j.d. or llm is required for these.


Yale only takes people into the JSD program who do the Yale LLM. I'm not sure about HS. Doing a JSD/SJD elsewhere would be a waste of time.

ETA: Maybe Chicago would be worth it, if they have US SJD candidates. (I'm not sure that they do--the LLM program at UChicago is definitely aimed at foreign-trained lawyers.)

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 12, 2012 7:32 pm

MVNP? Lol, wtf? Egregious Cornell/Berkeley/Duke hating.

And depends... how many publications? Law review? How high were you in your class at Northwestern?

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 13, 2012 2:01 am

Honestly, google the prawfs hiring threads the past few years. I think that what you're going to see is that someone with a MVPN JD plus AIII clerkship in a patent heavy docket plus an MA in EE or similar plus a couple of publications compares quite favorably with recent IP hires. The publications are going to be the issue -- research if IP is a field with reputed specialty journals (I don't know the answer to this). If so, good for you. If not, you're relegated to the mainline law reviews. If the latter is the case, you probably need to try to shoot for top 50 placement. Though if the clerkship is with the Federal Circuit, or one of the placements is with a top 20 law review, the "fighting chance" becomes a "really, really good chance."

Though all of that said, do understand that the tail end of the top 50 runs about 0.5%-1.0% acceptance rate for law review submissions. The top 20 is probably closer to 0.1%. And a large number of journals simply throw non-professor submissions in the trash. In other words, it's really hard to place a law review article with top tier journals, and that becomes even harder if you aren't already a professor.

(I say this as someone who has published/placed two articles in the past year, One was decently placed [lead article in a top 100]. The other was legitimately well-placed [right in the middle of the top 50], though I'm still wondering why, since I thought the other one was better.)

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby nleefer » Sun May 13, 2012 10:55 am

Listed in order of importance for getting a job as a law professor:
1) Publish 3-5 quality articles in the area of law in which you wish to specialize (maybe easier in IP because of specialty journals)
2) Have good grades from a T-14 school (academic hiring is dominated by HYS, but anywhere in the T-14 at least gives you a shot)
3) Get an Article III clerkship (appellate court is better than district for academia)
4) Everything else

Notice that getting an LLM is not on this list. Save your time and money and try to accomplish 1 and 3; i assume it's too late to do anything about #2.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby BeautifulSW » Sun May 13, 2012 11:03 am

The folks who are saying "publish, publish, publish" have it right, almost to the exclusion of any further degrees unless you want to teach tax; then it's "publish, publish, publish plus top 10% LL.M. from NYU."

It also helps a very great deal to graduate in the top 10% from HYS.

I'm trying to think if I've ever even met a law professor with a J.S.D. The degree seems to have been more common in law schools before about 1950. Heck, even Lawrence Tribe has (AFAIK) no more than an LL.B. from Harvard.

It does seem to me that a small but growing number of new law profs have Ph.D.s in law related fields but they ALSO have the HYS J.D. and lots of publications.

Good luck and DON'T practice for more than few few years first; actually knowing what you are doing is a DISadvantage when seeking a tenure-track law professor appointment.

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Re: Would Top 10 JD + IP LLM +Federal Clerkship = Professor Job?

Postby planeride » Sun May 13, 2012 11:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:Though all of that said, do understand that the tail end of the top 50 runs about 0.5%-1.0% acceptance rate for law review submissions. The top 20 is probably closer to 0.1%. And a large number of journals simply throw non-professor submissions in the trash. In other words, it's really hard to place a law review article with top tier journals, and that becomes even harder if you aren't already a professor.

(I say this as someone who has published/placed two articles in the past year, One was decently placed [lead article in a top 100]. The other was legitimately well-placed [right in the middle of the top 50], though I'm still wondering why, since I thought the other one was better.)


How did you place your articles so well? Are you a professor?




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