ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:29 pm

fatduck wrote:
pattonthicke wrote:
shoeshine wrote:I am working on a really big case/issue right now. The outcome means billions of dollars to our client. Somehow I have been assigned the research and memorandum that will outline our biggest and best argument in the future case. I assumed there was other associates working on this issue but I found out today that the partner I am working for has only assigned this part to himself because it is so important. We are nowhere near trial but I can't help but feel this is way above my pay grade. I am sure he will double and triple check my work but if we both make a mistake or my crappy reasoning leads him in the wrong direction it could mean a big loss for our client. This is alot of pressure.

Does anyone else feel like this?


the partner you are working for will research/write the memo himself. He will then take all of 2 minutes to look at your shit and grade you based on how close/off you were to what he came up with.-----you should feel no pressure---no matter what the partner told you, this deal will not depend on the accuracy of your memo.

this is the perfect reply in that it manages to be simultaneously 100% accurate and 100% the opposite of what shoeshine wants to hear


I had an assignment very similar to this with a very short deadline except mine was an immediately pending issue. I turned in my research/memo on a litigation issue and received a great that's exactly what I had response. The partner then made comments about how my memo could have been better using his own as an example of being better. Mainly I should have left out a lot of the "it speaks for itself" information. However, if you go on a different tangent from your assigning partner you need to be sure you can back it up because you will likely be trying to convince them they are wrong.

TL,DR: what you are doing doesn't matter much but be sure you can back up whatever you write.

LawIdiot86
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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:58 pm

shoeshine wrote:
fatduck wrote:
pattonthicke wrote:
shoeshine wrote:I am working on a really big case/issue right now. The outcome means billions of dollars to our client. Somehow I have been assigned the research and memorandum that will outline our biggest and best argument in the future case. I assumed there was other associates working on this issue but I found out today that the partner I am working for has only assigned this part to himself because it is so important. We are nowhere near trial but I can't help but feel this is way above my pay grade. I am sure he will double and triple check my work but if we both make a mistake or my crappy reasoning leads him in the wrong direction it could mean a big loss for our client. This is alot of pressure.

Does anyone else feel like this?


the partner you are working for will research/write the memo himself. He will then take all of 2 minutes to look at your shit and grade you based on how close/off you were to what he came up with.-----you should feel no pressure---no matter what the partner told you, this deal will not depend on the accuracy of your memo.

this is the perfect reply in that it manages to be simultaneously 100% accurate and 100% the opposite of what shoeshine wants to hear

Nope this pretty much 100% what I want to hear. I just don't ever want to be the reason any major mistakes are made. I am fine with making mistakes in my memo as long as they are contained and don't go out for other partners or clients to see.


They can afford to hire people like you because they don't trust people like you until they become people like them.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:33 pm

looking for some guidance:

I was assigned a large project the first week of the program. I have been meeting with the assigning partner to give him updates on my work every Friday or so, but he's been busy the last two weeks and we haven't met.

In the meantime, I took on some projects from other attorneys and just now finished them, but I am to meet with the partner from the larger project on Tues. and I haven't done any work for it since we last met two weeks ago.

Should I:
- tell him I took on some other projects and haven't done any new work on the project b/c I've been busy? or,
- avoid mentioning any other work and being too busy and just fudge some outline tom on what i should've been researching these past two weeks?

i know this is rather aspie, just trying to learn from TLS experience if it is appropriate to use work from other attorneys as an excuse..

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:looking for some guidance:

I was assigned a large project the first week of the program. I have been meeting with the assigning partner to give him updates on my work every Friday or so, but he's been busy the last two weeks and we haven't met.

In the meantime, I took on some projects from other attorneys and just now finished them, but I am to meet with the partner from the larger project on Tues. and I haven't done any work for it since we last met two weeks ago.

Should I:
- tell him I took on some other projects and haven't done any new work on the project b/c I've been busy? or,
- avoid mentioning any other work and being too busy and just fudge some outline tom on what i should've been researching these past two weeks?

i know this is rather aspie, just trying to learn from TLS experience if it is appropriate to use work from other attorneys as an excuse..

My advice : tell him the truth so he doesn't think you spent two weeks doing nothing. Work like mad tomorrow and come up with something solid looking - not just a fudged outline. Stay as late as you need to do a decent job.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby itbdvorm » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:10 pm

sunynp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:looking for some guidance:

I was assigned a large project the first week of the program. I have been meeting with the assigning partner to give him updates on my work every Friday or so, but he's been busy the last two weeks and we haven't met.

In the meantime, I took on some projects from other attorneys and just now finished them, but I am to meet with the partner from the larger project on Tues. and I haven't done any work for it since we last met two weeks ago.

Should I:
- tell him I took on some other projects and haven't done any new work on the project b/c I've been busy? or,
- avoid mentioning any other work and being too busy and just fudge some outline tom on what i should've been researching these past two weeks?

i know this is rather aspie, just trying to learn from TLS experience if it is appropriate to use work from other attorneys as an excuse..

My advice : tell him the truth so he doesn't think you spent two weeks doing nothing. Work like mad tomorrow and come up with something solid looking - not just a fudged outline. Stay as late as you need to do a decent job.


Agree. What are you, an idiot? You think just because someone was too busy to meet with you to discuss work you've been doing for them that you shouldn't be doing your work?

If you are handing something to a partner as work product and it's not the very best thing you can pull together you deserve whatever you get.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:37 pm

whoa now, itbdvorm! maybe i wasn't clear but u sure are quick to start with the names and the "u deserve what u get" talk...

I didn't complete much work for the project because I took on time-sensitive projects that interested me (one was even for the same partner). I've been plenty busy, but didn't devote much time to the long-term project without a hard deadline. I didn't want to forgo the chance to work with other practice groups because of this project that may consume my whole summer at the firm.

Just curious if he will be angry to hear me mention other, important projects as an excuse. It seems each attorney presumes that you are working for him or her alone.

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Old Gregg
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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:39 pm

It seems each attorney presumes that you are working for him or her alone.


No, they just don't like to hear that their assignment fell into some hierarchy and that you failed to do it because of that.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:whoa now, itbdvorm! maybe i wasn't clear but u sure are quick to start with the names and the "u deserve what u get" talk...

I didn't complete much work for the project because I took on time-sensitive projects that interested me (one was even for the same partner). I've been plenty busy, but didn't devote much time to the long-term project without a hard deadline. I didn't want to forgo the chance to work with other practice groups because of this project that may consume my whole summer at the firm.

Just curious if he will be angry to hear me mention other, important projects as an excuse. It seems each attorney presumes that you are working for him or her alone.


I've been in a similar boat. I got an assignment, worked hard on it for a few days, reached a point where I needed to meet with this person to ask a few questions, and they've been insanely busy lately and haven't had time for me. In the interim, I've been doing other projects, but have let the original person know I want to meet with them. However, I also am cognizant of the fact that I am just a lowly SA and I don't want to pester a partner about a small research assignment.

So my recommendation is: 1) make it clear that you are available to meet and haven't forgotten about the project, and 2) do as much work as you can do without meeting with them so you can go in and say, "Here's what I've got so far, but I need some guidance on ______ before I go on." You don't want to just go a few weeks without doing shit and then look like a lazy bum.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby itbdvorm » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:37 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
It seems each attorney presumes that you are working for him or her alone.


No, they just don't like to hear that their assignment fell into some hierarchy and that you failed to do it because of that.


That's exactly right. If I've asked you to do something and there's a reason why you can't, I need to know about it. "because I took on time-sensitive projects that interested me" isn't a good reason - that means YOU (not the partners, not the staffing person, etc.) CHOSE to do other people's work instead of my own.

I presume that when I ask someone to do something it will get done, and if it's not going to get done I'll be told why well in advance of the deadline (so I can try to figure out a solution).

Do you understand the job you are in? If you are reading this instead of busting your ass to get done what you need to get done in advance of this meeting my guess is the answer is no

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:52 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
It seems each attorney presumes that you are working for him or her alone.


No, they just don't like to hear that their assignment fell into some hierarchy and that you failed to do it because of that.


That's exactly right. If I've asked you to do something and there's a reason why you can't, I need to know about it. "because I took on time-sensitive projects that interested me" isn't a good reason - that means YOU (not the partners, not the staffing person, etc.) CHOSE to do other people's work instead of my own.

I presume that when I ask someone to do something it will get done, and if it's not going to get done I'll be told why well in advance of the deadline (so I can try to figure out a solution).

Do you understand the job you are in? If you are reading this instead of busting your ass to get done what you need to get done in advance of this meeting my guess is the answer is no

What about assignments where the assigning attorney says upfront, "This isn't urgent, do it when you're slow?"

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby swc65 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:01 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
It seems each attorney presumes that you are working for him or her alone.


No, they just don't like to hear that their assignment fell into some hierarchy and that you failed to do it because of that.


That's exactly right. If I've asked you to do something and there's a reason why you can't, I need to know about it. "because I took on time-sensitive projects that interested me" isn't a good reason - that means YOU (not the partners, not the staffing person, etc.) CHOSE to do other people's work instead of my own.

I presume that when I ask someone to do something it will get done, and if it's not going to get done I'll be told why well in advance of the deadline (so I can try to figure out a solution).

Do you understand the job you are in? If you are reading this instead of busting your ass to get done what you need to get done in advance of this meeting my guess is the answer is no

What about assignments where the assigning attorney says upfront, "This isn't urgent, do it when you're slow?"


I have run into this too. I got an off-the-cuff research assignment with the qualifies "do it when you're slow/have free time." I didn't have free time for a while. When the associate actually needed it, he let me know that I should make it priority. I had poked around a bit, but I did not have much, if anything to report. He said it was fine and asked me to get it done within the next or so. I actually was very busy, but it only took me a few hours to put together a quick email that had enough detail.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:34 am

swc65 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:What about assignments where the assigning attorney says upfront, "This isn't urgent, do it when you're slow?"


I have run into this too. I got an off-the-cuff research assignment with the qualifies "do it when you're slow/have free time." I didn't have free time for a while. When the associate actually needed it, he let me know that I should make it priority. I had poked around a bit, but I did not have much, if anything to report. He said it was fine and asked me to get it done within the next or so. I actually was very busy, but it only took me a few hours to put together a quick email that had enough detail.

This. The key is to always, always get some kind of deadline from the assigning attorney. Even if it's a long(ish) term research thing that they envision you doing in your downtime, knowing when they need something by will help you avoid looking silly when they actually need it and you never moved it off the back-burner.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby manofjustice » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:56 am

Where do we find the mean and median class sizes for the summer class that is summering right now? Does anyone know what it is?

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby de5igual » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:06 am

manofjustice wrote:Where do we find the mean and median class sizes for the summer class that is summering right now? Does anyone know what it is?


just go on nalp. the expected 2012 number is typically the actual one this summer.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby manofjustice » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:22 am

f0bolous wrote:
manofjustice wrote:Where do we find the mean and median class sizes for the summer class that is summering right now? Does anyone know what it is?


just go on nalp. the expected 2012 number is typically the actual one this summer.


Can I get an all-firm number? Or do I have to comb through individual firms 2012 numbers. (If I do, what firms are good bellwethers?)

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby manofjustice » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:38 am

I am confused. Maybe someone can help me out.

So, there is this: --LinkRemoved--

It says: "NALP has yet to release its statistics for summer class hiring for 2012, but Leipold said the average law firm summer class size remained at 15 for 2012 — the same as during 2011. That's better than the average summer class of eight during the depths of the recession, but is only half the prerecession average class size of 30, he said. There was a "modest uptick" in firm recruiting last fall, but that resulted in no significant increase in the number of summer offers."

But this: http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFall2011.pdf explains that 2011 class size was 8, not 15.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby los blancos » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:20 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
I also find it rather amusing that juniors are so quick to take the hardass line of "If you don't like it, go elsewhere" approach after cushy wining & dining they received during their summers.


Again, any day you leave at 530pm or any weekend you have off should be viewed as a gift, not as something you're entitled to. You just don't seem to get that.



lol your firm must suck

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:36 pm

los blancos wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I also find it rather amusing that juniors are so quick to take the hardass line of "If you don't like it, go elsewhere" approach after cushy wining & dining they received during their summers.


Again, any day you leave at 530pm or any weekend you have off should be viewed as a gift, not as something you're entitled to. You just don't seem to get that.



lol your firm must suck

Nah man, he's doing real work. Like, legitimately legit work. If you don't like it go work somewhere else.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:13 pm

.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:05 am

Stanford4Me wrote:
los blancos wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I also find it rather amusing that juniors are so quick to take the hardass line of "If you don't like it, go elsewhere" approach after cushy wining & dining they received during their summers.

Again, any day you leave at 530pm or any weekend you have off should be viewed as a gift, not as something you're entitled to. You just don't seem to get that.

lol your firm must suck

Nah man, he's doing real work. Like, legitimately legit work. If you don't like it go work somewhere else.

TBF, I think los blancos is saying that a summer where working late and working weekends is the norm would be kinda shitty. Obviously it is different when it is "legitimately legit work" and you're an associate. And obviously working late once in a while is fine as a summer and we should all be prepared to do it. But to call a weekend off as an SA a "gift" is kinda :? ... I get what Fresh Prince is saying (this is a job and we're expected to work), but for him to act like a 2000+ billable hour pace as a summer is normal is just nuts. Certainly not the norm with anyone I know outside of the tippy-top NYC firms.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:30 am

for him to act like a 2000+ billable hour pace as a summer is normal is just nuts


Hold up. I don't think it's normal. Yes, it would even suck. The point is that the summer shouldn't feel entitled to free lunches, leaving at 530 every day, and having every weekend. I do every bit I can to make sure my summers don't work late and on weekends ,and I've been successful so far.

I don't know, maybe I'm making too fine a point here. But I think this makes sense. You shouldn't feel entitled to any of the perks you have as a summer. You should be thankful and suck it up every once in a while when I ask you to do work outside of normal hours. And if it goes beyond that, you should take it because you're doing a summer JOB. If you want to give me attitude and tell me my firm sucks, I won't take offense. I'm happy to give your offer to someone else at your law school who will gladly do what he is asked with no complaints. And yes, those law students exist. Why? Because the economy still sucks and there are still people out there who understand the value of getting a fucking paycheck and putting a roof on their heads, rather than the value of comparing the tasting menus at Per Se versus The Modern.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:45 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
for him to act like a 2000+ billable hour pace as a summer is normal is just nuts


Hold up. I don't think it's normal. Yes, it would even suck. The point is that the summer shouldn't feel entitled to free lunches, leaving at 530 every day, and having every weekend. I do every bit I can to make sure my summers don't work late and on weekends ,and I've been successful so far.

I don't know, maybe I'm making too fine a point here. But I think this makes sense. You shouldn't feel entitled to any of the perks you have as a summer. You should be thankful and suck it up every once in a while when I ask you to do work outside of normal hours. And if it goes beyond that, you should take it because you're doing a summer JOB. If you want to give me attitude and tell me my firm sucks, I won't take offense. I'm happy to give your offer to someone else at your law school who will gladly do what he is asked with no complaints. And yes, those law students exist. Why? Because the economy still sucks and there are still people out there who understand the value of getting a fucking paycheck and putting a roof on their heads, rather than the value of comparing the tasting menus at Per Se versus The Modern.


Well, some summer programs are ranked better than others, and they may all have similar offer rates. If a firm marketed their summer program a certain way, then I think it's reasonable for people to expect what was advertised to them. If people knew ahead of time that 9-6 summer program is only an illusion on paper then perhaps they wouldn't have chosen the firm.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:39 am

Come in at 8. Make sure you're the last person there. Create the illusion that you are always there to people who come and go.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:50 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
for him to act like a 2000+ billable hour pace as a summer is normal is just nuts


Hold up. I don't think it's normal. Yes, it would even suck. The point is that the summer shouldn't feel entitled to free lunches, leaving at 530 every day, and having every weekend. I do every bit I can to make sure my summers don't work late and on weekends ,and I've been successful so far.

I don't know, maybe I'm making too fine a point here. But I think this makes sense. You shouldn't feel entitled to any of the perks you have as a summer. You should be thankful and suck it up every once in a while when I ask you to do work outside of normal hours. And if it goes beyond that, you should take it because you're doing a summer JOB. If you want to give me attitude and tell me my firm sucks, I won't take offense. I'm happy to give your offer to someone else at your law school who will gladly do what he is asked with no complaints. And yes, those law students exist. Why? Because the economy still sucks and there are still people out there who understand the value of getting a fucking paycheck and putting a roof on their heads, rather than the value of comparing the tasting menus at Per Se versus The Modern.

I just don't think that anyone in this thread is acting like that, at all. It seems like you're making some pretty unflattering inferences based on what people have said. Even the poster complaining about working with the slave-driver junior associate took great pains to make it clear they're grateful for the job and like it otherwise.

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Re: ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012)

Postby TTH » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:43 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
for him to act like a 2000+ billable hour pace as a summer is normal is just nuts


Hold up. I don't think it's normal. Yes, it would even suck. The point is that the summer shouldn't feel entitled to free lunches, leaving at 530 every day, and having every weekend. I do every bit I can to make sure my summers don't work late and on weekends ,and I've been successful so far.

I don't know, maybe I'm making too fine a point here. But I think this makes sense. You shouldn't feel entitled to any of the perks you have as a summer. You should be thankful and suck it up every once in a while when I ask you to do work outside of normal hours. And if it goes beyond that, you should take it because you're doing a summer JOB. If you want to give me attitude and tell me my firm sucks, I won't take offense. I'm happy to give your offer to someone else at your law school who will gladly do what he is asked with no complaints. And yes, those law students exist. Why? Because the economy still sucks and there are still people out there who understand the value of getting a fucking paycheck and putting a roof on their heads, rather than the value of comparing the tasting menus at Per Se versus The Modern.

I just don't think that anyone in this thread is acting like that, at all. It seems like you're making some pretty unflattering inferences based on what people have said. Even the poster complaining about working with the slave-driver junior associate took great pains to make it clear they're grateful for the job and like it otherwise.


So, I'm in a somewhat similar nautical vessel and am mainly wondering what I'm doing wrong. I just looked at my time entries for June. If I had started in January and worked at roughly this pace, I'd be on pace to work about 2,700 hours this year and bill around 2,300-2,400.

I don't think they even expect me to put in these kind of hours, but it's the only way I'm able to meet the deadlines on the various projects I have. The mechanism that's supposed to coordinate my workload isn't working, but I don't want to say anything about it, nor do I want to turn down work or ask for extensions. I can't believe I'm working that inefficiently, either. What should I be doing here? I don't want to do bad work or miss a deadline because I'm juggling too many things. Thoughts?




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