Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 6:16 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:Is a firm's historical recruiting GPA any indication of firm health? If a firm is in a major city paying market and has to dip further into the class than its peers, does that indicate that they are not as healthy as those peers? Dewey had one of the lowest historical median GPAs at my school and the list does seem to be a decent proxy for firm health.


Divulge more information, would love to hear more details about this.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Is a firm's historical recruiting GPA any indication of firm health? If a firm is in a major city paying market and has to dip further into the class than its peers, does that indicate that they are not as healthy as those peers? Dewey had one of the lowest historical median GPAs at my school and the list does seem to be a decent proxy for firm health.


Divulge more information, would love to hear more details about this.


At my T14, we have a list of 175 firm offices that have hired five or more graduates and the median GPA of those graduates. One of Dewey's big US offices was the 16th lowest on this list. Some of the firms lower than 16 I can tell are because of specific locations or practice groups, but some look like firms I've heard of as not doing as well.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:30 pm

OP - No one knows. To be completely honest, the structure of the private legal sector is not sound -> if one high profile firm, independently from its peers, has a fairly disappointing year, that firm could be finished as many of its most well-regarded partners would be poached from more successful peer firms (think law schools poaching professors from other law schools). Of course, the firm would not be finished overnight; it would be a slow bleed of partners and/or practice groups.

I would say that if you are comparing firms, look to see if there have been noticeable (not significant) partner defections/closing of offices at those firms since all of the firms did during so the economic crisis. That's probably the best indicator that you will have outside of Vault membership and a few other third party sources.

SN - GPA averages from recruiting are never a good indicator of firm health. It just means that the firm wants students from that particular school bad enough to take people clearly outside the top 1/3.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 6:33 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Is a firm's historical recruiting GPA any indication of firm health? If a firm is in a major city paying market and has to dip further into the class than its peers, does that indicate that they are not as healthy as those peers? Dewey had one of the lowest historical median GPAs at my school and the list does seem to be a decent proxy for firm health.


Divulge more information, would love to hear more details about this.


At my T14, we have a list of 175 firm offices that have hired five or more graduates and the median GPA of those graduates. One of Dewey's big US offices was the 16th lowest on this list. Some of the firms lower than 16 I can tell are because of specific locations or practice groups, but some look like firms I've heard of as not doing as well.


Divulge 10 highest and 10 lowest

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue May 01, 2012 6:34 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:Is a firm's historical recruiting GPA any indication of firm health? If a firm is in a major city paying market and has to dip further into the class than its peers, does that indicate that they are not as healthy as those peers? Dewey had one of the lowest historical median GPAs at my school and the list does seem to be a decent proxy for firm health.

Logically, I would think all this means is that law students tend to prefer other firms. Since law students, even those with high GPAs, don't tend to have much concrete information about law firms' financial stability, it doesn't seem like it could reveal much about the firm itself, just its reputation among rising 2Ls.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Citizen Genet » Tue May 01, 2012 6:36 pm

So I'll come out and say that these types of threads are virtually useless. There's a flood of names of firms with little merit to why they are in poor health. In fact, just eight months ago when there was a thread on which firm was going to be the next Howrey (see http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=160245), Dewey was mentioned in the following ways:

-As stealing a few OMM partners
-As one of the top firms ranked by Vault for quality of work environment
-And in this exchange:

Anyone know the scoop on Dewey & LeBoeuf? I heard (anecdotally) that it was not a great place to be, post-merger.


I have heard that Dewey was a bad place to be for awhile after an earlier proposed merger fell through, but things are better post-merger. Pre-merger, LeBoeuf was basically just an insurance law firm so the Dewey rep may have taken a hit but they're probably more stable.


Good to know, thanks!


In other words, while everyone was going on about how bad Orrick is and how Cravath was in decline (I kid you not!), Dewey was a firm that went by virtually unscathed. Most of the talk about OMM being in danger was because of a few partner defections (to Dewey no less) and nothing more. As both Dewey and Howrey have shown, these collapses can occur within just a few months. And I don't count on people posting regularly on TLS (or even occasionally) as being the insiders to which ones are likely to fall. I think TLS plays an incredible role in helping students prepare for jobs; I just don't think playing the market is one of the things it is good at helping people do.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 6:37 pm

K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Is a firm's historical recruiting GPA any indication of firm health? If a firm is in a major city paying market and has to dip further into the class than its peers, does that indicate that they are not as healthy as those peers? Dewey had one of the lowest historical median GPAs at my school and the list does seem to be a decent proxy for firm health.


Divulge more information, would love to hear more details about this.


At my T14, we have a list of 175 firm offices that have hired five or more graduates and the median GPA of those graduates. One of Dewey's big US offices was the 16th lowest on this list. Some of the firms lower than 16 I can tell are because of specific locations or practice groups, but some look like firms I've heard of as not doing as well.


Divulge 10 highest and 10 lowest


The five lowest general practice firms in major cities for those firms are Pepper, Reed, Baker McKenzie, Seward, Kelley Drye.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby keg411 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 pm

No chance that AmLaw "layoff report" is accurate. I have zero doubt that the firm I'm going to did layoffs and yet when you click them, there is only one article about a couple of staff members.

ETA: Never mind... thanks for posting LawIdiot!

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby rayiner » Tue May 01, 2012 6:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.


I don't think January deferrals are a particularly bad sign. Start dates at most firms are October or November anyway, so you're basically just talking about a one or two month deferral.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby msblaw89 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.

Since K&L Gates have several offices, would it be possible for some to go under while other prosper? Or would one going down ruin the reputation for the rest? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I have no idea

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby keg411 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:50 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.


I don't think January deferrals are a particularly bad sign. Start dates at most firms are October or November anyway, so you're basically just talking about a one or two month deferral.


I don't think they're a good sign, but I don't think they mean imminent danger of collapse either.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:55 pm

keg411 wrote:No chance that AmLaw "layoff report" is accurate. I have zero doubt that the firm I'm going to did layoffs and yet when you click them, there is only one article about a couple of staff members.

ETA: Never mind... thanks for posting LawIdiot!


No problem. I'm more than happy to answer PMs about specific firms, but would rather not give the whole population the same edge my classmates have.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Wholigan » Tue May 01, 2012 7:26 pm

Obv, the answer is firms that Lat can make catchy puns about on ATL. Dewey know what's going to happen next? Howrey going to go on? Can you say Locke the doors up? Irell-y hope no more partners jump ship? Bracewell for impact?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 8:13 pm

Unless I'm mistaken, Dewey's debt was a consequence, not a cause. They promised guaranteed comp to partners who didn't bring in enough business to justify their comp. Repeat that process enough times and you can't pay everyone. When you can't pay everyone, you issue debt or increase your revolver. Then eventually, unless you change partner comp or increase billing, you can't pay your debt.

Seems to me a good proxy for what firms are susceptible to this sort of vicious cycle is the extent to which they hire lateral partners, especially if they guarantee comp to entice them to lateral.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 9:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.


Were associates across all offices deferred?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Morgan12Oak » Tue May 01, 2012 9:11 pm

Can the mods do something about the rampant anonymous rumor-monger-whoring in this thread? These threads are dangerous as is and people who are using the anonymous function to say shit about firms that they are way too chicken shit to come out and say it with their name behind it only makes it worse. Further, none of these posts even divulge any information that needs to be anonymous besides the fact that we may not out them as being retarded for having some of these thoughts. It’s a dangerous combination. I mean shit, I guarantee this thread will already impact some peoples bidding. I get that I’m not supposed to be bitching about anonymous shit but this is out of control.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby msblaw89 » Tue May 01, 2012 9:17 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:Can the mods do something about the rampant anonymous rumor-monger-whoring in this thread? These threads are dangerous as is and people who are using the anonymous function to say shit about firms that they are way too chicken shit to come out and say it with their name behind it only makes it worse. Further, none of these posts even divulge any information that needs to be anonymous besides the fact that we may not out them as being retarded for having some of these thoughts. It’s a dangerous combination. I mean shit, I guarantee this thread will already impact some peoples bidding. I get that I’m not supposed to be bitching about anonymous shit but this is out of control.


If posters can back their claims...I don't think there is anything wrong, even if the claim is not necessarily 100% true. For example, if someone says firm X may be on the way down because of A and B, since a similar firm Y went down because of A and B. Obviously this IS NOT enough to determine that X will go down...just that it could happen. However, I do think the post should be substantiated in some way ( articles, hard numbers, etc).

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Morgan12Oak » Tue May 01, 2012 9:19 pm

I'm only saying one more thing about this because I don't think this is a proper place to debate the policy but even if they can substantiate it why the fuck would it need to be anonymous?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby traehekat » Tue May 01, 2012 9:45 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:Can the mods do something about the rampant anonymous rumor-monger-whoring in this thread? These threads are dangerous as is and people who are using the anonymous function to say shit about firms that they are way too chicken shit to come out and say it with their name behind it only makes it worse. Further, none of these posts even divulge any information that needs to be anonymous besides the fact that we may not out them as being retarded for having some of these thoughts. It’s a dangerous combination. I mean shit, I guarantee this thread will already impact some peoples bidding. I get that I’m not supposed to be bitching about anonymous shit but this is out of control.


that's like... the exact purpose of the anonymous feature.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Morgan12Oak » Tue May 01, 2012 9:47 pm

to say shit they're too chicken shit to say in person? to post stuff that they would be called retarded for if they weren't anonymous?

anonymous is so they don't out themselves with personal details. theres nothing personal about some chicken shit posting "I heard xxx is in trouble"

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 9:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.


Were associates across all offices deferred?


I think, just based on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=180790

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 10:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Even the tippy-top firms have certain issues. Cravath is very heavily leveraged, Skadden has some questionable offices, DPW has high expenses, STB is very invested in private equity, etc. If I had to pick a firm for "safest" I'd probably say S&C: they've got killer revenue per lawyer, extremely low expenses, and a well rounded, diversified practice.


Please describe DPW's high expenses. I had heard that they were described as "cheap."

TYIA

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 10:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.


Were associates across all offices deferred?


I think, just based on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=180790


Does anyone have any idea why K&L Gates is deferring their incoming associates? I can understand why they have done so in the past, but it seems like the firm has been doing fairly well financially. I think they were the 17th highest revenue firm this past year.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue May 01, 2012 10:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:K&L Gates deferred incoming associates until January. They, like Dewey, are a massive firm cobbled together by mergers.


Were associates across all offices deferred?


I think, just based on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=180790


Does anyone have any idea why K&L Gates is deferring their incoming associates? I can understand why they have done so in the past, but it seems like the firm has been doing fairly well financially. I think they were the 17th highest revenue firm this past year.


Highest revenue isn't the best measure because of firm size factors. Things like RPL and PPP are better at showing relative firm health than total revenue.




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