Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 6:56 pm

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't corroborate a really high retention rate, for super obvious reasons.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 05, 2012 7:00 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Your anecdotal evidence doesn't corroborate a really high retention rate, for super obvious reasons.


I understand, and I know we can't assume that these 5 or 6 people are representative of hundreds with regards to their salaries, but one thing still perplexes me: Why would the office in the strongest lateral market (NYC), have among the highest office retention rates (they showed me the data on this, and the NYC office retention rate was among the highest of the NYC V25 firm offices), if people felt like they were getting undercompensated? Again, we are talking NYC, where the recovery has been the most evident and the lateraling opportunities are definitely there for those interested. We aren't talking Cleveland or Atlanta here.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 7:09 pm

Again, we are talking NYC, where the recovery has been the most evident and the lateraling opportunities are definitely there for those interested


Again, lateral opportunities aren't super hot even in NYC, and, as you might imagine, there are plenty of firms above Jones Day in pecking order who would be preferred on the lateral market. We aren't talking about the number 1 firm in the city, where the world is each associates' oyster.

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stratocophic
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby stratocophic » Sat May 05, 2012 7:25 pm

For the record, I had an adjunct professor who did a study on firms with black box comp and virtually every firm he looked at paid below market in aggregate. Basically, they used the system to camouflage themselves while paying below market and shafting associates. Granted I think the study mostly covered secondary markets, but nevertheless. From a game theory standpoint, if you were paying below market on the whole, would you be screaming it from the rooftops if you were competing for talent with other firms that pay more down the line?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Renzo » Sat May 05, 2012 9:40 pm

stratocophic wrote:For the record, I had an adjunct professor who did a study on firms with black box comp and virtually every firm he looked at paid below market in aggregate. Basically, they used the system to camouflage themselves while paying below market and shafting associates. Granted I think the study mostly covered secondary markets, but nevertheless. From a game theory standpoint, if you were paying below market on the whole, would you be screaming it from the rooftops if you were competing for talent with other firms that pay more down the line?


Not only does this make sense in the abstract, it is in keeping with Jones Day's business model and philosophy. The reason the firm did do very will through the recession is that it is a conservative place. They pay less in good times, and smooth out the bumps in bad times.

Also, as a general principle, you will always hear from people who do well. It's the same reason that you hear more from law students who have jobs than those who don't, and more about grades from students beating the curve than those being beaten by it. So don't put too much stock in anecdotal reports of how people fare in the black-box firms.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby PDaddy » Sat May 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Curious about PWRWG...

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 9:54 pm

PDaddy wrote:Curious about PWRWG...


Over-leveraged to the hilt, but one of the safest firms out there.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat May 05, 2012 9:58 pm

PDaddy wrote:Curious about PWRWG...


Pretty much the prototype for big NY sweatshop firms.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 05, 2012 10:17 pm

Renzo wrote:
stratocophic wrote:For the record, I had an adjunct professor who did a study on firms with black box comp and virtually every firm he looked at paid below market in aggregate. Basically, they used the system to camouflage themselves while paying below market and shafting associates. Granted I think the study mostly covered secondary markets, but nevertheless. From a game theory standpoint, if you were paying below market on the whole, would you be screaming it from the rooftops if you were competing for talent with other firms that pay more down the line?


Not only does this make sense in the abstract, it is in keeping with Jones Day's business model and philosophy. The reason the firm did do very will through the recession is that it is a conservative place. They pay less in good times, and smooth out the bumps in bad times.

Also, as a general principle, you will always hear from people who do well. It's the same reason that you hear more from law students who have jobs than those who don't, and more about grades from students beating the curve than those being beaten by it. So don't put too much stock in anecdotal reports of how people fare in the black-box firms.


I think this totally makes sense, and its far from a negative if you ask me. Sure, you are giving up a bit of the high end bonus $$ in good times, but in exchange, you are getting a security blanket in bad times since it leaves the firm better able to remain stable (hence why the firm was able to weather the recession so well, to the point that there were articles written about it trying to pinpoint the reason). And you are right that it seems very in line with the firm's character, to value the collective and not focus quite as heavily on the individual. I'm surprised more firms don't follow this type of approach, instead of paying out high when the going is good, and then kicking people to the curb when things turn sour.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Fresh Prince,

If you had to name any firms in the v20 that were less stable than others, which would you choose?

Further, any firms in general you'd recommend avoiding if at all possible?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 05, 2012 10:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Fresh Prince,

If you had to name any firms in the v20 that were less stable than others, which would you choose?

Further, any firms in general you'd recommend avoiding if at all possible?


In V20, Sidley and White & Case.

Firms to avoid? I have a huge list, but its based on a lot of opinion and I really don't want to rouse anger. I'm also typing on my IPad, so it would take too long to type out anyways haha.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 10:26 pm

My bad that's me above.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby sunynp » Sat May 05, 2012 10:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Renzo wrote:
stratocophic wrote:For the record, I had an adjunct professor who did a study on firms with black box comp and virtually every firm he looked at paid below market in aggregate. Basically, they used the system to camouflage themselves while paying below market and shafting associates. Granted I think the study mostly covered secondary markets, but nevertheless. From a game theory standpoint, if you were paying below market on the whole, would you be screaming it from the rooftops if you were competing for talent with other firms that pay more down the line?


Not only does this make sense in the abstract, it is in keeping with Jones Day's business model and philosophy. The reason the firm did do very will through the recession is that it is a conservative place. They pay less in good times, and smooth out the bumps in bad times.

Also, as a general principle, you will always hear from people who do well. It's the same reason that you hear more from law students who have jobs than those who don't, and more about grades from students beating the curve than those being beaten by it. So don't put too much stock in anecdotal reports of how people fare in the black-box firms.


I think this totally makes sense, and its far from a negative if you ask me. Sure, you are giving up a bit of the high end bonus $$ in good times, but in exchange, you are getting a security blanket in bad times since it leaves the firm better able to remain stable (hence why the firm was able to weather the recession so well, to the point that there were articles written about it trying to pinpoint the reason). And you are right that it seems very in line with the firm's character, to value the collective and not focus quite as heavily on the individual. I'm surprised more firms don't follow this type of approach, instead of paying out high when the going is good, and then kicking people to the curb when things turn sour.


Do you mean paying the partners or paying the associates? Here is the thing: when the going is good there is a lot of work so you need a lot of people to simply physically do what needs to be done, even if people are billing 2500 or more hours. When the going is bad, there isn't enough work so there is no point in paying people you don't need and can't use. Also, when the going is good most people want to maximize their income. When the going it bad, people want to protect their income above a certain level. And they need to cut costs to do so - so they get rid of people they think they can live without.

Never forget that the partners can do the work without the associates. The partners can draft better than you can, the partners can negotiate better than you can, they can structure deals better than you can -- they really don't need you in any fundamental way except to help them get the work done.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sat May 05, 2012 10:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Fresh Prince,

If you had to name any firms in the v20 that were less stable than others, which would you choose?

Further, any firms in general you'd recommend avoiding if at all possible?


In V20, Sidley and White & Case.

Firms to avoid? I have a huge list, but its based on a lot of opinion and I really don't want to rouse anger. I'm also typing on my IPad, so it would take too long to type out anyways haha.


Just name a top 5 to appease the masses.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 10:32 pm

Randomly looking through V100:
White and case
Shearman
Paul hastings
Orrick
Pillsbury

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 05, 2012 10:53 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Randomly looking through V100:
White and case
Shearman
Paul hastings
Orrick
Pillsbury


Mind sharing what you heard about Paul Hastings? I'm not going there myself, but had an offer and was considering it

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 10:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Randomly looking through V100:
White and case
Shearman
Paul hastings
Orrick
Pillsbury


Mind sharing what you heard about Paul Hastings? I'm not going there myself, but had an offer and was considering it


On iPad, so yes I mind. And I'm not going to defend my opinion. Don't want to get into an argument.

I've been wrong before too, so not worth it. I thought Dewey was on the rise last summer, for example.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 05, 2012 11:06 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Randomly looking through V100:
White and case
Shearman
Paul hastings
Orrick
Pillsbury


Mind sharing what you heard about Paul Hastings? I'm not going there myself, but had an offer and was considering it


On iPad, so yes I mind. And I'm not going to defend my opinion. Don't want to get into an argument.

I've been wrong before too, so not worth it. I thought Dewey was on the rise last summer, for example.


Oh, didn't realize its just based on your opinion. Though you had actual info on which to base it. Ok, nevermind

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Old Gregg
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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat May 05, 2012 11:08 pm

It's opinion based on actual information. But you can reasonably reach other opinions from the same information.

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 06, 2012 5:20 pm

Incoming SA at Paul Hastings and curious about your reasoning. I've spoken to folks in my legal community and they say only good things (as opposed to some other firms I got offers from). Perhaps I'm missing something?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 06, 2012 5:32 pm

What's the word on Mayer Brown? I hear the name thrown around as one of the possible collapses, but it seems like they're recovering. As an incoming SA, I obviously know nothing though...

If I had the option after the summer between them and another, less reputable firm (think lower range of the V100), would it be safer to take the other option?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 06, 2012 9:02 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Randomly looking through V100:
White and case
Shearman
Paul hastings
Orrick
Pillsbury


Mind sharing what you heard about Paul Hastings? I'm not going there myself, but had an offer and was considering it


On iPad, so yes I mind. And I'm not going to defend my opinion. Don't want to get into an argument.

I've been wrong before too, so not worth it. I thought Dewey was on the rise last summer, for example.


Hmm I'm not sure I'd agree with the analysis here for all these firms. For example, while Shearman and White & Case might not be up to the standards they were at in the previous decades (i.e. within the top 5-10 firms in large deal work), they are still very healthy and conservatively managed firms.

In fact, when asking about choosing a NY firm, law firm recruiters and knowledgeable partners all suggested that in NY, Shearman + White & Case were definitely better options than the NY offices of Jones Day/ Sidley Austin/ Clifford Chance/ etc. (of course this is due partly to the desirability of being at the "firm headquarters" but I think it still speaks to their general health).

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 06, 2012 9:16 pm

I'm curious why White & Case keeps coming up?

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun May 06, 2012 9:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hmm I'm not sure I'd agree with the analysis here for all these firms. For example, while Shearman and White & Case might not be up to the standards they were at in the previous decades (i.e. within the top 5-10 firms in large deal work), they are still very healthy and conservatively managed firms.

In fact, when asking about choosing a NY firm, law firm recruiters and knowledgeable partners all suggested that in NY, Shearman + White & Case were definitely better options than the NY offices of Jones Day/ Sidley Austin/ Clifford Chance/ etc. (of course this is due partly to the desirability of being at the "firm headquarters" but I think it still speaks to their general health).


I think White and Case deservedly gets mentioned as a potentially troubled firm (not just here, but also among practicing lawyers).

White and case laid off 279 lawyers (well over 10% of the firm), including a bunch of partners, and a similar number of staff. It had a ton of partner defections in 2010. Like everywhere else, revenue and profits took a huge dive in the recession, but unlike everywhere else, they haven't really recovered.

Anecdotally, they also have a good deal of debt.

Financial results:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... white-case
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... e2011.html
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... ent-1.html

Layoffs/firing partners:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/nyreg ... wanted=all
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... tting_day/
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _partners/

Partner defections:
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... tinue.html
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/whats-go ... hite-case/

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Re: Which law firms may follow Dewey..and which law firms won't?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 06, 2012 10:00 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hmm I'm not sure I'd agree with the analysis here for all these firms. For example, while Shearman and White & Case might not be up to the standards they were at in the previous decades (i.e. within the top 5-10 firms in large deal work), they are still very healthy and conservatively managed firms.

In fact, when asking about choosing a NY firm, law firm recruiters and knowledgeable partners all suggested that in NY, Shearman + White & Case were definitely better options than the NY offices of Jones Day/ Sidley Austin/ Clifford Chance/ etc. (of course this is due partly to the desirability of being at the "firm headquarters" but I think it still speaks to their general health).


I think White and Case deservedly gets mentioned as a potentially troubled firm (not just here, but also among practicing lawyers).

White and case laid off 279 lawyers (well over 10% of the firm), including a bunch of partners, and a similar number of staff. It had a ton of partner defections in 2010. Like everywhere else, revenue and profits took a huge dive in the recession, but unlike everywhere else, they haven't really recovered.

Anecdotally, they also have a good deal of debt.

Financial results:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... white-case
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... e2011.html
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... ent-1.html

Layoffs/firing partners:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/nyreg ... wanted=all
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... tting_day/
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _partners/

Partner defections:
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... tinue.html
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/whats-go ... hite-case/



Hmm interesting did not know all that information. The sources I mentioned above did slightly favor Shearman over White & Case so perhaps that dovetails with the White & Case's current financial picture.




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