SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

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09042014
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:24 pm

D-hops wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
D-hops wrote:Now I am curious why people still continue to pick these Cravath/Sulcrom-scale bonus firms over the firms that pay more variable rate bonuses with the bottom of the scale equaling these other firms. I imagine not everyone has those choices, but I am sure quite a few people do and still chose the lockstep bonus firms.


How much more does KE and Quinn end up paying their associates. I'd imagine some of it is exit options, but damn, I don't know.

If midlevels start moving in droves to those firms, the lockstep firms will have to match.

What other firms pay significantly above market to a good chunk of their associates? Even Quinn is really just at market for 2100-2400 hours right? I know at least a couple V100 do bonuses that can go above market, but we are talking barely so, and only for a small number.


With KE and Quinn I think it can be 3-4 times market bonuses. Boeis pays above market, I think Ropes can pay above market. I am sure there are others I can't think of.

But when you think about it there aren't many firms that are going to be putting significant pressure on the top firms to change their compensation because there are just too many jobs at the Cravath-scale firms.


This winter Bonus Quinn is market from 2100-2400. Below market for 2000-2100. Double market for over 2600. That's a fuck ton of billables. Though from what I hear, 2400 is what you need to not get fired. So you are getting about 5K for working at a sweatshop.

Boeis is hard to get.

Some firms do a really black boxish bonus thing. Where if you bill the min you get Cravath scale, but some number get more. But I think for the most part those firms aren't paying a whole lot more.

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IAFG
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:26 pm

I hope that prestige is tasty.

timbs4339
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Lateral market must not be as hot as people are saying.

Also for the dude who thinks 1K isn't enough to walk to the bank to deposit, kindly leave the check at the reception desk at 125 Broad. I'll be by momentarily.

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rayiner
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby rayiner » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:35 pm

D-hops wrote:Now I am curious why people still continue to pick these Cravath/Sulcrom-scale bonus firms over the firms that pay more variable rate bonuses with the bottom of the scale equaling these other firms. I imagine not everyone has those choices, but I am sure quite a few people do and still chose the lockstep bonus firms.


I am also curious to know why people pick these Cravath/SulCrom firms which are located in NYC, where your take-home is $800/month lower straight off the bat.

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IAFG
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:37 pm

rayiner wrote:
D-hops wrote:Now I am curious why people still continue to pick these Cravath/Sulcrom-scale bonus firms over the firms that pay more variable rate bonuses with the bottom of the scale equaling these other firms. I imagine not everyone has those choices, but I am sure quite a few people do and still chose the lockstep bonus firms.


I am also curious to know why people pick these Cravath/SulCrom firms which are located in NYC, where your take-home is $800/month lower straight off the bat.

I can't imagine anyone with a KE Chi offer would ever, ever, ever, ever do that. Must just come down to a lack of alternatives.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

How the fuck do people still not understand some people want to work in NY. Yes, you make less money when you start, of course everyone knows this. But some people just want to live in NY, like the corporate legal work you get in NY, or want the exit opps that you get from NY corp firms, or a hundred other reasons of why they would want to work in NY.

Yes if you get an offer at a NY V5 you probably had market options in more affordable cities. But for goodness sake, I've seen people ask this question hundreds of times on this site and I'm bewildered people are still clueless.

TL;DR version

FFS

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sunynp
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby sunynp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:49 pm

rayiner wrote:
D-hops wrote:Now I am curious why people still continue to pick these Cravath/Sulcrom-scale bonus firms over the firms that pay more variable rate bonuses with the bottom of the scale equaling these other firms. I imagine not everyone has those choices, but I am sure quite a few people do and still chose the lockstep bonus firms.


I am also curious to know why people pick these Cravath/SulCrom firms which are located in NYC, where your take-home is $800/month lower straight off the bat.

Because we love NYC more than any place else. Because we are from New York. Because we want to do the best corporate work. Because we can.

Honestly - do you really not understand why someone would want to work at Cravath or Sullivan and Cromwell?

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IAFG
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:55 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:How the fuck do people still not understand some people want to work in NY. Yes, you make less money when you start, of course everyone knows this. But some people just want to live in NY, like the corporate legal work you get in NY, or want the exit opps that you get from NY corp firms, or a hundred other reasons of why they would want to work in NY.

Yes if you get an offer at a NY V5 you probably had market options in more affordable cities. But for goodness sake, I've seen people ask this question hundreds of times on this site and I'm bewildered people are still clueless.

TL;DR version

FFS

No one is asking ITT clueless, they just continue to think people who make that choice are dumbasses. FFS.

Anonymous User
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:04 pm

This is embarrassing, but also predictable. Partners may be making more money then ever, but the legal market for young associates is so slack that they don't have to give anything really. Don't expect things to change until the legal market recovers, which may be.... never.

How I wish I had graduated in 2004. 2% student loans, 30k tuition, 30k first year bonuses, salaries that kept going up and up and total job security. Fuck.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:06 pm

IAFG wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:How the fuck do people still not understand some people want to work in NY. Yes, you make less money when you start, of course everyone knows this. But some people just want to live in NY, like the corporate legal work you get in NY, or want the exit opps that you get from NY corp firms, or a hundred other reasons of why they would want to work in NY.

Yes if you get an offer at a NY V5 you probably had market options in more affordable cities. But for goodness sake, I've seen people ask this question hundreds of times on this site and I'm bewildered people are still clueless.

TL;DR version

FFS

No one is asking ITT clueless, they just continue to think people who make that choice are dumbasses. FFS.


Is that why a post like 5 posts up reads "I am also curious to know why people pick these Cravath/SulCrom firms which are located in NYC, where your take-home is $800/month lower straight off the bat." Re-read please. FFS

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thesealocust
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby thesealocust » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:08 pm

D-hops wrote:Now I am curious why people still continue to pick these Cravath/Sulcrom-scale bonus firms over the firms that pay more variable rate bonuses with the bottom of the scale equaling these other firms. I imagine not everyone has those choices, but I am sure quite a few people do and still chose the lockstep bonus firms.


There are like, less than five such (big) firms in existence, and they universally have strong cultures that will only mesh with some personalities. Put another way, there's a lot that goes into deciding where to work beyond bonus structure. The firms with the potential for higher bonuses also tend to be litigation-heavy firms, and most people who want to do corporate wouldn't switch teams for the chance at a couple extra bucks.

Lastly, law firms and banking both have a tendency to overstate the (average) bonuses people get in the black-box arena because the people with big bonuses brag (publicly) about their big bonuses.

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thesealocust
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby thesealocust » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:12 pm

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

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IAFG
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:13 pm

*
Last edited by IAFG on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby thesealocust » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:15 pm

The only people I know who wound up at NYC V5 firms were people with decent but not great grades and no personality who had to ride gigantic class sizes to an employment offer.
Last edited by thesealocust on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby IAFG » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:17 pm

Everyone I know who took NY V5 needs prestige on an IV drip to stay alive.
Last edited by IAFG on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:17 pm

Yeah, the people at my school who got NY V5 firms all bid them as safeties.

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thesealocust
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby thesealocust » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:20 pm

IAFG wrote:Everyone I know who took NY V5 needs prestige on an IV drip to stay alive.


I can't imagine how embarrassing it must be to meet people and have to admit to only be working at Cleary or something.
Last edited by thesealocust on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby keg411 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:20 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by keg411 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:24 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:How the fuck do people still not understand some people want to work in NY. Yes, you make less money when you start, of course everyone knows this. But some people just want to live in NY, like the corporate legal work you get in NY, or want the exit opps that you get from NY corp firms, or a hundred other reasons of why they would want to work in NY.

Yes if you get an offer at a NY V5 you probably had market options in more affordable cities. But for goodness sake, I've seen people ask this question hundreds of times on this site and I'm bewildered people are still clueless.

TL;DR version

FFS


You also have to factor in that everyone who works at SullCrom is a fucking asshole. Other than that, it seems like a cool place to work.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby RedBirds2011 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:26 pm

This thread has become very entertaining :lol:

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Lawl Shcool » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:26 pm

ITT: people who already make $160,000/year complain about being given more money for no extra work.

09042014
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:27 pm

What are the partnership prospects at Sulcrom compared to KE. Is Sulcrom one of those firms that doesn't lateral in partners? That might be a consideration.

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monkey85
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby monkey85 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:29 pm

^thesealocust's post.

Epicly long but SO worth the read. Funny.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:30 pm

There needs to be a TLS forum for people with V10 offers. The lack of prestige in this thread is killing me.

09042014
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Re: SULCROM SHATTERS MARKET WITH SPRING BONUS

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:31 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:There needs to be a TLS forum for people with V10 offers. The lack of prestige in this thread is killing me.


At least three (not me) do.




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