Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

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Undergradut
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Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Undergradut » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:07 pm

So, does anyone else think that legal employers discriminate against white males? And against conservatives, too? (especially people whose resumes indicates they are socially conservative). Or when I complain about this, am I being a little paranoid?

As for the white male part, well.. I've heard a partner from a 50+ law firm say that the firm plans only to hire women clerks for the next couple of years. The idea is that if you don't have enough women partners, then you have a problem that needs to be fixed, even if the reason is because women don't want to become partners in the same proportion as men do.

As for discrimination against conservatives (male or female), I've heard from conservative biglaw associates who did hiring that they would have to fight and stand up for an applicant who was being dinged for his conservative politics. After a brutal year of doing interviews, I have had interviews where the interviewer openly makes snide remarks about my resume because it evidences bona fide conservative credentials, which by the way, I try my hardest to mask, but it is not entirely successful. Of course, I cannot prove this sort of discrimination based on politics. What goes on in hiring employer's mind is beyond me, and I have no idea what happens behind closed doors. And to be sure, the main reason I was rejected so many times was I am simply not qualified, but I can't help but wonder if political discrimination may have made the difference in a few cases. So far, I have framed this as discrimination against conservatives, but I think it happens against liberals, too.. I mean, I got interviews with some conservative mid-sized firms that I probably wasn't qualified for; I am thinking my politics gave me a boost. Unfortunately for me, it is the rare mid-sized firm that is conservative.

My opinion is that if big or mid-sized law firms are doing this, then that is not justifiable in an egalitarian society. I get the argument that -- oh well, women and minorities have been historically discriminated against, so now it is time to discriminate against white males. Somehow that argument doesn't seem very compelling to me. As for discrimination against conservatives, ah.. I think it is kind of hilarious. It is the liberal ideology that is supposed to be so tolerant.
Last edited by Undergradut on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:08 pm

Oh boy. IBTL

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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:09 pm

Undergradut wrote:So, does anyone else think that legal employers discriminate against white males? And against conservatives, too? (especially people whose resumes indicates they are socially conservative). Or when I complain about this, am I being a little paranoid?

As for the white male part, well.. I've heard a partner from a 50+ law firm say that the firm plans only to hire women clerks for the next couple of years. The idea is that if you don't have enough women partners, then you have a problem that needs to be fixed, even if the reason is because women don't want to become partners in the same proportion as men do.

As for discrimination against conservatives (male or female), I've heard from conservative biglaw associates who did hiring that they would have to fight and stand up for an applicant who was being dinged for his conservative politics. After a brutal year of doing interviews, I have had interviews where the interviewer openly makes snide remarks about my resume because it evidences bona fide conservative credentials, which by the way, I try my hardest to mask, but it is not entirely successful. Of course, I cannot prove this sort of discrimination based on politics. What goes on in hiring employer's mind is beyond me, and I have no idea what happens behind closed doors. And to be sure, the main reason I was rejected so many times was I am simply not qualified, but I can't help but wonder if gender or political discrimination may have made the difference in a few cases. So far, I have framed this as discrimination against conservatives, but I think it happens against liberals, too.. I mean, I got interviews with some conservative mid-sized firms that I probably wasn't qualified for; I am thinking my politics gave me a boost. Unfortunately for me, it is the rare mid-sized firm that is conservative.

My opinion is that if big or mid-sized law firms are doing this, then that is not justifiable in an egalitarian society. I get the argument that -- oh well, women and minorities have been historically discriminated against, so now it is time to discriminate against white males. Somehow that argument doesn't seem very compelling to me. As for discrimination against conservatives, ah.. I think it is kind of hilarious. It is the liberal ideology that is supposed to be so tolerant.


Only if you agree with them.

Edit: Even though I feel like I did not respond to the substance of your post, I still feel like I got flamed.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

iowalum
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby iowalum » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:12 pm

Are you serious?

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moonman157
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby moonman157 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:13 pm

Poor white men :(

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kalvano
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby kalvano » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:14 pm

I definitely feel discriminated against in law firms as a middle-class white male. I mean, I'm like the only one there when I go into law firms. Can't they have a little compassion and make a brother feel welcome?

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:16 pm

moonman157 wrote:Poor white men :(


I don't agree with OP at all, but this seems to be the typical lib response even when there is something wrong with a policy or practice.

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moonman157
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby moonman157 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:21 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Poor white men :(


I don't agree with OP at all, but this seems to be the typical lib response even when there is something wrong with a policy or practice.


I certainly wasn't being too serious. I would have given a more thoughtful or detailed response if OP warranted it. But if there is a profession where white men have it especially tough, it isn't law.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:23 pm

Also, if you're worried about being discriminated against for being a conservative, just remove all traces of political affiliations from your resume. I sure did. If you're too proud to do that, then it's your own damn fault for not getting an offer.

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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby iowalum » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:25 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Poor white men :(


I don't agree with OP at all, but this seems to be the typical lib response even when there is something wrong with a policy or practice.


Oh Jesus Christ get over yourself. The 'typical lib response' thing is just tired.

Although I agree with the OP that there is probably some political discrimination both ways I hardly think conservative white males are in danger of becoming extinct in the legal world.

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tedalbany
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby tedalbany » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:27 pm

Random Cravath search for partners who are NYU alumni: 1 white female, 9 white males. Nothing else.

Clearly you're facing an uphill battle.

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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:28 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Poor white men :(


I don't agree with OP at all, but this seems to be the typical lib response even when there is something wrong with a policy or practice.


To actually address the question:

I got a job as a 1L at a top DC firm "despite" obvious conservative credentials (college republican leadership; republican internships; federalist society etc.) as a white male.

If you have stuff on your resume like "Students For Life, President; Students in Defense of Marriage, Founder and President," then that might be a different story - but then again, that wouldn't exactly be trying to hide it on your resume. Some people advised me to take off the college republican and internship stuff and I decided not to. But I certainly wouldn't put anything referencing the social issues specifically on your resume.

In all likelihood, you're being paranoid (based on my limited and admittedly anecdotal experience) but if you give more information about the items on your resume that you think resulted in a ding, we could be more helpful.

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Undergradut
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Undergradut » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:29 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:Also, if you're worried about being discriminated against for being a conservative, just remove all traces of political affiliations from your resume. I sure did. If you're too proud to do that, then it's your own damn fault for not getting an offer.


Yeah. I have heard hiring partners and career services say you should remove anything on your resume exposing your politics. Unfortunately for me, the name of the organization I worked for is itself a give-away, and it would be pointless to put "Non-profit organization, Summer 2011" because the interviewers would ask for the name of the organization. To that point I guess I should have realized what I was getting into before I got involved with the organization.. Still, it is too bad that it has to be that way. Again, regardless of whether one is being dinged for being conservative or liberal.

thederangedwang
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby thederangedwang » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:31 pm

for clerkships its the opposite

right leaners get a bump cause they are in the minority in terms of law students but the majority of judges are right leaners and so..for clerkships at least, they get a bump

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Undergradut
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Undergradut » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Poor white men :(


I don't agree with OP at all, but this seems to be the typical lib response even when there is something wrong with a policy or practice.


To actually address the question:

I got a job as a 1L at a top DC firm "despite" obvious conservative credentials (college republican leadership; republican internships; federalist society etc.) as a white male.

If you have stuff on your resume like "Students For Life, President; Students in Defense of Marriage, Founder and President," then that might be a different story - but then again, that wouldn't exactly be trying to hide it on your resume. Some people advised me to take off the college republican and internship stuff and I decided not to. But I certainly wouldn't put anything referencing the social issues specifically on your resume.

In all likelihood, you're being paranoid (based on my limited and admittedly anecdotal experience) but if you give more information about the items on your resume that you think resulted in a ding, we could be more helpful.


Yeah -- Federalist society is one thing. Socially conservative credentials is considerably more toxic, and that is what my resume has on it.

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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:34 pm

Undergradut wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:Also, if you're worried about being discriminated against for being a conservative, just remove all traces of political affiliations from your resume. I sure did. If you're too proud to do that, then it's your own damn fault for not getting an offer.


Yeah. I have heard hiring partners and career services say you should remove anything on your resume exposing your politics. Unfortunately for me, the name of the organization I worked for is itself a give-away, and it would be pointless to put "Non-profit organization, Summer 2011" because the interviewers would ask for the name of the organization. To that point I guess I should have realized what I was getting into before I got involved with the organization.. Still, it is too bad that it has to be that way. Again, regardless of whether one is being dinged for being conservative or liberal.

I guess it depends on the organization. Fed Soc? Okay, sure. Some senator or rep or something? Not a problem. CATO Institute? Intellectually respectable.

Some tea party nutjob type stuff? Okay, yeah I'm gonna start to question your judgment and intelligence at that point.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:36 pm

Undergradut wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:Also, if you're worried about being discriminated against for being a conservative, just remove all traces of political affiliations from your resume. I sure did. If you're too proud to do that, then it's your own damn fault for not getting an offer.


Yeah. I have heard hiring partners and career services say you should remove anything on your resume exposing your politics. Unfortunately for me, the name of the organization I worked for is itself a give-away, and it would be pointless to put "Non-profit organization, Summer 2011" because the interviewers would ask for the name of the organization. To that point I guess I should have realized what I was getting into before I got involved with the organization.. Still, it is too bad that it has to be that way. Again, regardless of whether one is being dinged for being conservative or liberal.

Yea in that regard I know what you mean. I was deputy campaign manager for the county executive in the same county that I applied for a DA internship. The county executive is a Republican (and won) and the DA is a well-renowned liberal. I never even got an interview, even though I was otherwise well-qualified. That was the point where I removed any indications of political affiliation from my resume.
Last edited by MrPapagiorgio on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:37 pm

First, I'm a center-right conservative male. Second, in my prior career and looking ahead into my legal career, any sign of political activism (young rep/dem, sierra club/federalists, etc.) was and will be a huge ding to people I interview. If I can tell someone's political affiliation from a resume when they are trying to get hired for a BigLaw job, that tells me they aren't passionate enough about doing whatever it is I tell them to. I want people who will write a perfect brief defending DOMA one day and then write a brief the next day to win a pro bono transgender discrimination pro bono case. I don't want to have to worry that they'll let their political feelings taint their work product or distract them from their job. If they can't or didn't expunge all trace of it from their resume to sell their legal skills to me, I don't have confidence they will expunge it from their work product. I also will worry that they'll disrupt the workplace trying to convince their colleagues to join their pursuits and being "that guy" who always has to say how unfair something is.

As to the gender/race issue, everyone gets plus factors as a group, even white men. We've got our legacy admissions because of our dads, lower arrest rates for crime because of targeted policing, and family advantage that lets us go to law school more easily. Look at the Baylor data. Sure Baylor threw African-Americans 3-4 points on the LSATs, but its admitted class was still only 2% black when the national average would indicate 12%. We all can't have the same plus factors.

Also, blaming things outside your own control for your failure is a bad mentality. Taking 100% responsibility and screaming "I didn't get the job because of my own fault," and then working harder to get it next time, builds far better character.

09042014
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:37 pm

What America do you live in. Being a white man in a suit is 180. That won't hurt you at all.

Though actually caring about social issues is some prolish shit my friend. That prolife anti gay stuff is to keep rednecks voting bro. Elite Republicans don't give one shit.

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:38 pm

iowalum wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Poor white men :(


I don't agree with OP at all, but this seems to be the typical lib response even when there is something wrong with a policy or practice.


Oh Jesus Christ get over yourself. The 'typical lib response' thing is just tired.

Although I agree with the OP that there is probably some political discrimination both ways I hardly think conservative white males are in danger of becoming extinct in the legal world.


What are you even talking about?

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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:40 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:First, I'm a center-right conservative male. Second, in my prior career and looking ahead into my legal career, any sign of political activism (young rep/dem, sierra club/federalists, etc.) was and will be a huge ding to people I interview. If I can tell someone's political affiliation from a resume when they are trying to get hired for a BigLaw job, that tells me they aren't passionate enough about doing whatever it is I tell them to.


Really? What kind of firm do you work for and how senior are you?

LawIdiot86 wrote:Also, blaming things outside your own control for your failure is a bad mentality. Taking 100% responsibility and screaming "I didn't get the job because of my own fault," and then working harder to get it next time, builds far better character.


This is good advice.

*edited to remove anon criticism (my bad). stayed anon because same poster as 1L republican above and would be identifiable.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:42 pm

Stop poasting anonymously. Own your shit.

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:43 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:First, I'm a center-right conservative male. Second, in my prior career and looking ahead into my legal career, any sign of political activism (young rep/dem, sierra club/federalists, etc.) was and will be a huge ding to people I interview. If I can tell someone's political affiliation from a resume when they are trying to get hired for a BigLaw job, that tells me they aren't passionate enough about doing whatever it is I tell them to. I want people who will write a perfect brief defending DOMA one day and then write a brief the next day to win a pro bono transgender discrimination pro bono case. I don't want to have to worry that they'll let their political feelings taint their work product or distract them from their job. If they can't or didn't expunge all trace of it from their resume to sell their legal skills to me, I don't have confidence they will expunge it from their work product. I also will worry that they'll disrupt the workplace trying to convince their colleagues to join their pursuits and being "that guy" who always has to say how unfair something is.

As to the gender/race issue, everyone gets plus factors as a group, even white men. We've got our legacy admissions because of our dads, lower arrest rates for crime because of targeted policing, and family advantage that lets us go to law school more easily. Look at the Baylor data. Sure Baylor threw African-Americans 3-4 points on the LSATs, but its admitted class was still only 2% black when the national average would indicate 12%. We all can't have the same plus factors.

Also, blaming things outside your own control for your failure is a bad mentality. Taking 100% responsibility and screaming "I didn't get the job because of my own fault," and then working harder to get it next time, builds far better character.


LOL at bolded.

ruski
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby ruski » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:44 pm

don't understand the backlash. i agree the white male thing is dumb, but being an open conservative will definitely hurt your chances. most of these elite firms are filled with liberals. especially social liberals. especially since your mostly going to be interviewing with midelvel associates, and not 70 yr old partners, they will all be liberal.

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bk1
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Re: Discrimination against white males / conservatives in hiring

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:46 pm

ruski wrote:don't understand the backlash. i agree the white male thing is dumb, but being an open conservative will definitely hurt your chances. most of these elite firms are filled with liberals. especially social liberals. especially since your mostly going to be interviewing with midelvel associates, and not 70 yr old partners, they will all be liberal.


It's not about being conservative. It's about being stupid enough to show zealotry for any political topic on either side of the spectrum. That just shows bad judgment.




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