Are the Biglaw junior associate stories true? Forum

[Anonymous User]

n.b.: billable hours/year don't include time you're at the office but not working, or are working on firm projects.

[Samara]

Generally speaking, what is the ratio of non-billable to billable hours? And for 100 additional billable hours, what would the marginal increase in non-billable hours be? I imagine some of your non-billables are firm stuff that is fixed regardless of billable hours.

Does this vary between firms or practice areas?

[Coco_Local]

My experience at a big firm (like the above poster) was pretty similar. I usually walked in the door around 8 and out around 6 or 7 when things were slow. When I was busy I would be in the back of a town car or cab at 11 pm heading home. I actually spent a freaking ton of time traveling and doing deps. I also spent weeks on end at trial sites, which killed my personal life and nearly killed my sanity. Partners yell and sometimes throw things. People get thrown under buses. Clients act clueless about their e-discovery obligations. Opposing counsel act like douchbags. Independent of these problems, trials, even under the awesome circumstances like my current job, are stressful. But you kinda take it on the chin and keep paying off you loans.

I learned a ton at biglaw but decided to leave because the structure of biglaw oddly prevents development.

Things are insanely hearchical and most firms have an entire class of "partners" who are basically associates since they have no business. This prevents upward mobility/training/mentoring because the service partners want to stay relevant to the partner with the book of business. After seeing so many friends' careers railroaded for stupid things and watching the mess of stealth layoffs (mostly at the hands of service partners who were desperately trying to keep their own jobs) at my old firm (and firms across town), I left biglaw to clerk and then to work in the government as an AUSA. I've seen so many bright, talented people get pushed out of the industry for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. One thing I wasn't prepared for after graduating law school is that to a great degree, your future as a lawyer is driven by luck as much as talent, ambition, and smarts. I am incredibly humble and grateful for my fortunate circumstances because but for the grace of God...

[Anonymous User]

Generally speaking, what is the ratio of non-billable to billable hours? And for 100 additional billable hours, what would the marginal increase in non-billable hours be? I imagine some of your non-billables are firm stuff that is fixed regardless of billable hours.

Depends on how busy you are. When you aren't, you usually end up billing around 70% of your time. When you are, it's probably 95%. (In fact, that's probably the worst part of being a litigator -- when you get busy, you work more hours AND you work harder during those hours that you're working.)

My experience was that the yield on the marginal 100 hours above your billable target is pretty high -- meaning that to go from 2000 hours to 2100 hours takes pretty close to 100 worked hours. That's because the general reason you'd bill the extra 100 hours is because you have a case that requires it.

[Curious1]

Generally speaking, what is the ratio of non-billable to billable hours? And for 100 additional billable hours, what would the marginal increase in non-billable hours be? I imagine some of your non-billables are firm stuff that is fixed regardless of billable hours.

Depends on how busy you are. When you aren't, you usually end up billing around 70% of your time. When you are, it's probably 95%. (In fact, that's probably the worst part of being a litigator -- when you get busy, you work more hours AND you work harder during those hours that you're working.)

My experience was that the yield on the marginal 100 hours above your billable target is pretty high -- meaning that to go from 2000 hours to 2100 hours takes pretty close to 100 worked hours. That's because the general reason you'd bill the extra 100 hours is because you have a case that requires it.

Don't want to turn this into an ask-a-litigator thread, but you've just been so helpful...

In your experience, did people distinguish themselves as juniors based more on their quality of work or the quantity? I understand as first years, most people will do discovery (?) and doc review, so there's no real way to be "good" at it?

In that case does responsibility scale purely with seniority, or will partners ever say, "oh he billed more hours/he did really well at doc reviewing, so he should get more responsibilities/be promoted."

[mattviphky]

eh. deleted my post.

[Anonymous User]

In your experience, did people distinguish themselves as juniors based more on their quality of work or the quantity? I understand as first years, most people will do discovery (?) and doc review, so there's no real way to be "good" at it?

In that case does responsibility scale purely with seniority, or will partners ever say, "oh he billed more hours/he did really well at doc reviewing, so he should get more responsibilities/be promoted."

Quality, quality, three times quality. A first year who bills 1800 hours doing excellent work becomes a second year billing 2100 hours (because now everyone wants to work with her). And the reverse for a first year doing mediocre work but padding his hours doing mindless doc review.

And don't underestimate the substative nature of what you'll do as a first year. Yes, there will be a lot of doc review and responding to discovery requests -- but there will probably be a lot of research memos and first drafts of more discrete motions and small parts of bigger briefs as well. Do a good job on those.

[Curious1]

In your experience, did people distinguish themselves as juniors based more on their quality of work or the quantity? I understand as first years, most people will do discovery (?) and doc review, so there's no real way to be "good" at it?

In that case does responsibility scale purely with seniority, or will partners ever say, "oh he billed more hours/he did really well at doc reviewing, so he should get more responsibilities/be promoted."

Quality, quality, three times quality. A first year who bills 1800 hours doing excellent work becomes a second year billing 2100 hours (because now everyone wants to work with her). And the reverse for a first year doing mediocre work but padding his hours doing mindless doc review.

And don't underestimate the substative nature of what you'll do as a first year. Yes, there will be a lot of doc review and responding to discovery requests -- but there will probably be a lot of research memos and first drafts of more discrete motions and small parts of bigger briefs as well. Do a good job on those.

Awesome. Thanks so much!

[sunynp]

The biglaw reward for doing good work is getting more work. But that may be the same in every job, every where.

[Curious1]

The biglaw reward for doing good work is getting more work. But that may be the same in every job, every where.

You forgot to mention that that comes with continued gainful employment and (hopefully) higher rates of pay.

[keg411]

And don't underestimate the substative nature of what you'll do as a first year. Yes, there will be a lot of doc review and responding to discovery requests -- but there will probably be a lot of research memos and first drafts of more discrete motions and small parts of bigger briefs as well. Do a good job on those.

This is really great to hear. Part of why I want to do litigation is because I love writing, so it's great to hear that you get to do that stuff as a first year. Not going to a V10 firm, but I'd imagine its basically the same thing (both hours and substantive-work wise) for mid-lower NYC V100's.

[Anonymous User]

(Litigator from above.)

That is not at ALL what "primary market" means. "Markets" are cities/regions.

I understand what "markets" mean. My point is that there are a lot more similarities -- in quality of work, pay, hours, etc. -- between the top firms in the big non-NYC cities and the V10 or V20 NYC firms than there are between those non-NYC firms and their smaller same city counterparts. In other words, an associate at Kirkland in Chicago is going to have a lifestyle a lot closer to an associate at S&C in NYC than she is an associate at SNR Denton.

If you are just looking at geographic locations, NYC is a "primary market" all alone. DC, LA, SF, Boston and Chicago are the "secondary" markets. Then you have a bunch of "tertiary" regional markets that have a firm or three that claim to be "national," but they're really not -- they mostly have NYC and DC offices to service their regional business.

I'm curious to know more about your secondary market experience

My experience was/is that the big cases were handled by out-of-town firms with a local firm signed on as local counsel. And you can definitely tell who handles what. That leaves the worse-quality work for the local firms. And going outside the handful of big regional firms, the trash rolls downhill, so at the next level, you're talking really unsophisticated, low dollar cases. (For those who don't know, the low dollar work sucks because you either have to half-ass it, or cut your hours.)

Are you saying that Jones Day and Kirkland people from the midwest are not up to snuff? (not being snarky just trying to clarify)

Absolutely not. I have worked with/against Kirkland attorneys. They are really excellent. I haven't worked with Jones Day, but I know several people there and I suspect they'd be really good too.

I'm not going to name names. Just that I've been consistently surprised by the mediocre quality of work at some of the "tertiary" regional firms described above -- and again, the attorneys have impressive backgrounds, so it's not a garbage-in problem.

Finally, to the person who suggested that biglaw is basically a situation where you are overpaid 70% of the time, but then you (try to) make it up the other 30%, that's probably a good description.

I know you are a litigator, but are you sure this isn't just based on perceptions based on revenue, which is largely driven by the corporate practice in New York. It seems to me that it would be short-sighted to draw a distinction between the quality of work done by a Williams & Connelly/Covington attorney in DC, a Gibson Dunn attorney in LA, or a Sidley attorney in Chicago. Is your genuine perception that the work is actually better in NYC or just different?

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that it would be short-sighted to draw a distinction between the quality of work done by a Williams & Connelly/Covington attorney in DC, a Gibson Dunn attorney in LA, or a Sidley attorney in Chicago.

I'm getting a little sloppy with the "secondary" and "tertiary" terminology, and that's causing some confusion (understandably).

As I said in an earlier post, I tend to think of "markets" more in terms of the type/quality of firms, and not geographically. I'd group the elite "national" firms in big non-NYC cities -- and all of the firms you mention would fall into that category (I forgot Covington earlier) -- with the big V10 or V20 NYC firms. The pay, hours, quality of work (and work product), etc. are going to be far closer to each other than to the regional firms (either the next tier in the major non-NYC cities, or the big boys in the "tertiary" cities [i.e., not LA, SF, Chicago, Boston or DC]). So no -- I don't mean to suggest by any stretch that the national firms in the big non-NYC cities do inferior work to the NYC firms. Really the opposite, in fact.

I really was referring more to the regional firms in the more mid-sized cities, some of which are actually quite big and well-reputed. So to use two firms who I haven't practiced against and thus do not mean to imply that they fall into "mediocre work" category I was describing, think (hypothetically) Dorsey or Snell.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is definitely scaring me -- I'm working at a V-50 this summer. :/
Does it help that the office is in the west coast?

[keg411]

It seems to me that it would be short-sighted to draw a distinction between the quality of work done by a Williams & Connelly/Covington attorney in DC, a Gibson Dunn attorney in LA, or a Sidley attorney in Chicago.

I'm getting a little sloppy with the "secondary" and "tertiary" terminology, and that's causing some confusion (understandably).

As I said in an earlier post, I tend to think of "markets" more in terms of the type/quality of firms, and not geographically. I'd group the elite "national" firms in big non-NYC cities -- and all of the firms you mention would fall into that category (I forgot Covington earlier) -- with the big V10 or V20 NYC firms. The pay, hours, quality of work (and work product), etc. are going to be far closer to each other than to the regional firms (either the next tier in the major non-NYC cities, or the big boys in the "tertiary" cities [i.e., not LA, SF, Chicago, Boston or DC]). So no -- I don't mean to suggest by any stretch that the national firms in the big non-NYC cities do inferior work to the NYC firms. Really the opposite, in fact.

I really was referring more to the regional firms in the more mid-sized cities, some of which are actually quite big and well-reputed. So to use two firms who I haven't practiced against and thus do not mean to imply that they fall into "mediocre work" category I was describing, think (hypothetically) Dorsey or Snell.

Wait, I'm confused. Does this mean that the work at lower V-ranked NYC firms is generally "mediocre"? Is there that big of a gulf between NYC V20 and NYC V-everything else for litigation? I always assumed the gap was bigger on the corporate side then on the lit side. (And maybe I assumed wrong)

[Anonymous User]

Wait, I'm confused. Does this mean that the work at lower V-ranked NYC firms is generally "mediocre"? Is there that big of a gulf between NYC V20 and NYC V-everything else for litigation? I always assumed the gap was bigger on the corporate side then on the lit side. (And maybe I assumed wrong)

Honestly, I don't have enough experience with the "worse ranked" NYC firms to know what type of work they are getting -- most of the big cases I worked/work on involve big non-NYC firms (Latham, MoFo, Greenberg, Quinn, etc). That said, my limited experience with those "worse ranked" NYC firms is generally pretty good. One in particular (since I'm being complimentary, I'll say who -- Cadwalader) put out some good briefs. I picked up a few rhetorical tricks that I still use. (Hint: "And around and around we go" is surprisingly effective when arguing that the other side's argument is circular.)

I think you are probably right that there is a bigger drop-off in work quality in transactional than lit, but again, that's not an empirical observation.

[bceagles182]

The hardest thing for me is working all night, or almost all night and through the next day. I really suffer if I don't get any sleep or only an hour or two. And then it is hard to catch up because you still have long days. After three days without much sleep I'm really done.

They certainly can be. When I was a paralegal at one of the big NYC firms, I once worked a 10 hour day on Friday in NYC (8 am to 6 pm), got on a plane to London on Friday evening, flew (first class) to London overnight (~6 hour flight), arrived in London around 8 am on Saturday, showered and suited up in the airport, and then went straight to our London office. I worked until 1 am that Saturday night, and then went back to my hotel, ate dinner (room service is the only thing available at that hour in London), went to sleep around 2 am, and then got back up at 6 am on Sunday to head back into the office. I think we went home around 10 pm that night. I then flew back to NYC that early enough that Monday morning that we wouldn't miss the NYSE open. When my plane arrived back at LGA, the car took me straight back to the NY office to start a new workweek.

I billed well over 90 hours that week, which means I probably "worked" closer to 120.

[Anonymous User]

I once worked a 10 hour day on Friday in NYC (8 am to 6 pm), got on a plane to London on Friday evening, flew (first class) to London overnight (~6 hour flight), arrived in London around 8 am on Saturday, showered and suited up in the airport, and then went straight to our London office. I worked until 1 am that Saturday night, and then went back to my hotel, ate dinner (room service is the only thing available at that hour in London), went to sleep around 2 am, and then got back up at 6 am on Sunday to head back into the office. I think we went home around 10 pm that night. I then flew back to NYC that early enough that Monday morning that we wouldn't miss the NYSE open.

This brings back memories. When I was a second year, we had a case with a 100+ page privilege log, and I was the junior associate assigned with proofing and cross-checking it. I was also the only associate on a case pending before the Tenth Circuit, and I drafted the briefs (in retrospect, they were crazy not to get someone more senior in there). We had close family friends with a have-to-attend wedding in London the week the privilege log was due (I gave three months notice that I needed to be gone), and the week before the COA brief was. I pulled two consecutive all-nighters on the privilege log before leaving. I fell asleep in the cab on the way to the airport. I fell asleep on the runway, with a hard copy of the brief in my lap. I woke up when my spouse told me I had to get off the plane in London. We had lunch, and then s/he took a nap to fight off the jet lag. I worked. I woke up at 5:00 AM the first morning there to work. I intended to wake up the next morning to work but overslept. We went to the wedding, and left at midnight after the reception for the airport. We found a corner in Heathrow to camp out, and then my spouse slept on the floor while I worked until our 6:00 AM flight. I worked on the plane until I passed out. My spouse complained about that trip for approximately three years.

The punchline is that this all didn't prevent me from getting yelled at for leaving the privilege log in less-than-polished shape, and yelled at again for having a few embarrassing typos in the brief. (Though the latter was almost entirely local counsel's fault, and we got the COA to reverse, so all's well that ends well.)

[ilovesf]

Anyone have any input if this is generally the same in all big markets, like in SF? I'm thinking of biglaw, but I'm pretty scared of the lifestyle.

[Samara]

Is there a lot of travel in corporate/transactional work or all these stories specific to litigation? I also don't entirely understand the differences between corporate/transactional/litigation.

[PDaddy]

I have heard that it is insanely hard to actually "bill" 2,000 a year if you aren't being mentored properly and the junior partners are doling out unbillable gruntwork. In your first year, you're just learning how everything works, so your work isn't easily billable, especially if you make errors.

You need to be "Mike Ross" to somebody's "Harvey Specter" in order to have smooth sailing and meet the requirement. That's why so many associates are gone within a few years. Truth is, good paralegals can bill more easily than can a new associate.

[Anonymous User]

I have heard that it is insanely hard to actually "bill" 2,000 a year if you aren't being mentored properly and the junior partners are doling out unbillable gruntwork. In your first year, you're just learning how everything works, so your work isn't easily billable, especially if you make errors.

The grunt work is usually billable. That's how firms make money (this is changing).

That said, it usually is hard your first year (or even two) to meet billable requirements. Cases have lives. It's easy when you have been counsel on a case for two years to research something that's on your "to do" list when you get slow. It's a bit more difficult when you're a newbie on the file. Plus, people seem to just assume that as a first year, you are light, and they give you the non-billable "I have an article idea" work. Which, by the way, as someone who has placed multiple articles, including in top 30 mainline law reviews, their article idea is stupid 99% of the time.

Anyway, PSA: First year associates, most of you are going to bill 1800-1900 hours. You aren't going to get fired. Concentrate on doing good work, and everything will work out OK.

[mirodh]

I have heard that it is insanely hard to actually "bill" 2,000 a year if you aren't being mentored properly and the junior partners are doling out unbillable gruntwork. In your first year, you're just learning how everything works, so your work isn't easily billable, especially if you make errors.

The grunt work is usually billable. That's how firms make money (this is changing).

That said, it usually is hard your first year (or even two) to meet billable requirements. Cases have lives. It's easy when you have been counsel on a case for two years to research something that's on your "to do" list when you get slow. It's a bit more difficult when you're a newbie on the file. Plus, people seem to just assume that as a first year, you are light, and they give you the non-billable "I have an article idea" work. Which, by the way, as someone who has placed multiple articles, including in top 30 mainline law reviews, their article idea is stupid 99% of the time.

Anyway, PSA: First year associates, most of you are going to bill 1800-1900 hours. You aren't going to get fired. Concentrate on doing good work, and everything will work out OK.

Not to highjack, but when does a 1st year associate become a 2nd year? (with salary change and everything else that entails). If you start in ~september, is it after Christmas bonuses? or is your 1st year really 1yr+3months? I can imagine it varying by firm but was wondering if there was a rule-of-thumb.

[guinness1547]

I once worked a 10 hour day on Friday in NYC (8 am to 6 pm), got on a plane to London on Friday evening, flew (first class) to London overnight (~6 hour flight), arrived in London around 8 am on Saturday, showered and suited up in the airport, and then went straight to our London office. I worked until 1 am that Saturday night, and then went back to my hotel, ate dinner (room service is the only thing available at that hour in London), went to sleep around 2 am, and then got back up at 6 am on Sunday to head back into the office. I think we went home around 10 pm that night. I then flew back to NYC that early enough that Monday morning that we wouldn't miss the NYSE open.

This brings back memories. When I was a second year, we had a case with a 100+ page privilege log, and I was the junior associate assigned with proofing and cross-checking it. I was also the only associate on a case pending before the Tenth Circuit, and I drafted the briefs (in retrospect, they were crazy not to get someone more senior in there). We had close family friends with a have-to-attend wedding in London the week the privilege log was due (I gave three months notice that I needed to be gone), and the week before the COA brief was. I pulled two consecutive all-nighters on the privilege log before leaving. I fell asleep in the cab on the way to the airport. I fell asleep on the runway, with a hard copy of the brief in my lap. I woke up when my spouse told me I had to get off the plane in London. We had lunch, and then s/he took a nap to fight off the jet lag. I worked. I woke up at 5:00 AM the first morning there to work. I intended to wake up the next morning to work but overslept. We went to the wedding, and left at midnight after the reception for the airport. We found a corner in Heathrow to camp out, and then my spouse slept on the floor while I worked until our 6:00 AM flight. I worked on the plane until I passed out. My spouse complained about that trip for approximately three years.

The punchline is that this all didn't prevent me from getting yelled at for leaving the privilege log in less-than-polished shape, and yelled at again for having a few embarrassing typos in the brief. (Though the latter was almost entirely local counsel's fault, and we got the COA to reverse, so all's well that ends well.)

Well that just sounds fantastic. My LSAT study materials have become much less enticing almost immediately. Academia it is then haha.

[Wyld Stallyns]

Does everyone in this thread work in New York? Does everyone on this board work/want to work in New York?