Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

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rayiner
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:2L near the very top of the class at a T6 school. Scholarship $$ mean I'll graduate with next to no debt. Had the pick of jobs all over the country after OCI including all the top firms.

If I could do it all again I wouldn't have chosen law school. School itself can be grueling, especially if you want top of the class grades, but it usually isn't awful. I have made great friends and at times classes are interesting.

However, the best scenario for most people going into law school is scoring a biglaw job, and the jobs just aren't that good/worth the money. Being a lawyer is basically a crappy service industry job. The work is dull and stressful at the same time. You are at the beck and call of the kids who went to B-school. While the pay is pretty good, it isn't great for the hours you work.

If I could have a do over all the way back to high school I would have done something more worthwhile in UG. If I could talk to my pre-LS self I'd tell myself to go to b-school.


B-school doesn't get you into GS/Goldman/etc. You get in there by getting a 3.9 in a hard major at an Ivy UG. B-school just lets you come back after your two year stint as an analyst.

If your pre-LS self had gone to B-school, without prior finance experience, you would've ended up working in consulting, best case scenario. And consulting... talk about service industry jobs.

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:27 pm

LordBeric wrote:I fit the criteria but don't regret it at all. The worst part of law school is dealing with all these sissies who are crying about their 160k jobs lined up when we are making quadruple what most people our age make. People from law school tend to be a miserable bunch of people who are always trying to explain why their life is crap, and I guess I regret having to deal with these babies for three years and the toll their negativity can take on your own attitude.

But seriously I entered law school as a 23 year old with a good undergrad degree and no job prospects. I exit with an awesome job, am getting laid more than ever, don't ever have to live with mom and dad again (unlike most of my friends with just UG degrees), and my Biglaw job sets me up to live like an absolute P.I.M.P. It may have helped that I actually had a Biglaw area I was extremely interested in before I entered.

Law school seems to be a way better deal for men from what I see, most girls seem to be jealous of their friends married to men with Biglaw type jobs without the effort and resent that men find Biglaw hours to be undesirable. There is a weird social dynamic where men are becoming increasingly hot commodities whereas the opposite is true for single females. Spending 60 hours at work a week in your most desirable period is a tough commitment, and I really sympathize with girls who take a hit to their stock by doing it.

Anyway, I think law school drastically improved my life, but because of the past reasons I think its a good deal only for men and not women, which I think in many ways is a shame.



Friend, if you needed to go through three years of hanging around whiners and reading casebooks and brown-nosing for a job in order to get laid more, you're doing it wrong. But hey, I won't hate on you for doing what was necessary to get tail. Anyway, glad to see you don't regret it. There certainly are people for whom law school was a god-send. But I'm also just as sure there are just as many (let's be honest, wayyyy f*ckin more) for whom it was a terrible decision.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.

the medical intern spent 8 years studying, and is not making about 40k a year. and will continue with that salary for another few years until he's a resident. his hours are awful and has a pretty messed up schedule. the engineer is also bitter because he will never break 100k. i know bankers who are miserable because their 2 year stint is up and they didn't place into a good HF/PE shop (very few do , esp nowadays) so the ones that got their contract extended are forced to do banking for another year, and the ones who didn't get an offer to stay on for a third year (since analyst contracts expire in 2 years) are completely stressed out and f'ed because they have no job prospects or any job security for that matter and what they thought was their "golden ticket" was really just a waste of 2 years. so in conclusion, yes law sucks, but so do most other professions. grass is always greener.



If all things are equal, then why waste 3 years of your life + take on loads of debt?

r6_philly
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby r6_philly » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:30 pm

Many jobs are less grueling and brutal than law, but they also pay very little. There are jobs less grueling and brutal than law that pays very well, but you usually have to have some sort of special ability.

WSJ compiled a list of best jobs: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... wsj_gadgv1

I have done #1, 9, and 15, quite successfully. But the upside is not nearly as good as law when it comes to pay and advancement potentials. I also worked about 45/hr a week with no real vacation (always on call). So that's ~2300 hours per year + on call/emergency over time (I say paybe 2-5 hours a week, so + 100 - 250 hours a year).

If you want a good paying job, you either have to possess some skills that the mass doesn't, or you have to be willing to work harder. If you want to work 9-5 with very little stress, then you should be expected to be compensated very little.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:32 pm

Some very good (optimistic) points made ITT.

I will concede that going to law school AND GETTING A JOB IN LAW is more or less comparable to other professions, and comparing them is mostly a matter of taste (I prefer the increased security, portability, and 10-year-in earning power of the MD, and I just plain have a lot more respect for what doctors do).

The key difference--that isn't a matter of taste--is that getting a job is not a given in LS, whereas it is in med school and for most engineers. Thanks, ABA.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:37 pm

r6_philly wrote:Many jobs are less grueling and brutal than law, but they also pay very little. There are jobs less grueling and brutal than law that pays very well, but you usually have to have some sort of special ability.

WSJ compiled a list of best jobs: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... wsj_gadgv1

I have done #1, 9, and 15, quite successfully. But the upside is not nearly as good as law when it comes to pay and advancement potentials. I also worked about 45/hr a week with no real vacation (always on call). So that's ~2300 hours per year + on call/emergency over time (I say paybe 2-5 hours a week, so + 100 - 250 hours a year).

If you want a good paying job, you either have to possess some skills that the mass doesn't, or you have to be willing to work harder. If you want to work 9-5 with very little stress, then you should be expected to be compensated very little.



Again, assumptions that this thread's key theme is regretting not getting the compensation they wanted, are wrong. One can regret law school for a number of reasons. And what upside are you talking about? The upside in 1995 maybe? What upside is there today IN GENERAL (not for the top 10% at top 10s). I see a lot of self-proclaimed blue-collar people in this thread. I was lucky enough to live quite well in my life, and realized that money will not bring one happiness or satisfaction. Many studies show doing something you enjoy, regardless of money, is the surest way to life-satisfaction.

On the flipside, I must also say, if you love doing what lawyers do...then you've already won, no matter where you work.

I just want to say good luck to everyone, and whether you regret it or not, don't let yourself be unhappy.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:39 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.

the medical intern spent 8 years studying, and is not making about 40k a year. and will continue with that salary for another few years until he's a resident. his hours are awful and has a pretty messed up schedule. the engineer is also bitter because he will never break 100k. i know bankers who are miserable because their 2 year stint is up and they didn't place into a good HF/PE shop (very few do , esp nowadays) so the ones that got their contract extended are forced to do banking for another year, and the ones who didn't get an offer to stay on for a third year (since analyst contracts expire in 2 years) are completely stressed out and f'ed because they have no job prospects or any job security for that matter and what they thought was their "golden ticket" was really just a waste of 2 years. so in conclusion, yes law sucks, but so do most other professions. grass is always greener.



If all things are equal, then why waste 3 years of your life + take on loads of debt?


I don't think they're equal. I had a solid engineering job before law school. That is to say I was doing interesting, complicated work but wasn't working for Facebook, Google, etc. I left because I wanted to make more money and because my "exit options" were engineering management, which is soul sucking. As an engineer in a major market, but outside Facebook/Google, you can pretty easily hit $100k by 30, but your salary pretty much tops out there. And because engineers are considered replaceable cogs (to a *far* greater degree than law firm associates), there is really no way to make more money by being better at your job. Then, as soon as you turn 40 you need to find an exit from engineering, because it becomes hard to find jobs unless you have very specialized skills.

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rayiner
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:40 pm

flcath wrote:Some very good (optimistic) points made ITT.

I will concede that going to law school AND GETTING A JOB IN LAW is more or less comparable to other professions, and comparing them is mostly a matter of taste (I prefer the increased security, portability, and 10-year-in earning power of the MD, and I just plain have a lot more respect for what doctors do).

The key difference--that isn't a matter of taste--is that getting a job is not a given in LS, whereas it is in med school and for most engineers. Thanks, ABA.


Not true. I've seen countless third-tier engineering grads working as service techs and the like because they couldn't get a real engineering job.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:44 pm

rayiner wrote:
jetsetter12 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.

the medical intern spent 8 years studying, and is not making about 40k a year. and will continue with that salary for another few years until he's a resident. his hours are awful and has a pretty messed up schedule. the engineer is also bitter because he will never break 100k. i know bankers who are miserable because their 2 year stint is up and they didn't place into a good HF/PE shop (very few do , esp nowadays) so the ones that got their contract extended are forced to do banking for another year, and the ones who didn't get an offer to stay on for a third year (since analyst contracts expire in 2 years) are completely stressed out and f'ed because they have no job prospects or any job security for that matter and what they thought was their "golden ticket" was really just a waste of 2 years. so in conclusion, yes law sucks, but so do most other professions. grass is always greener.



If all things are equal, then why waste 3 years of your life + take on loads of debt?


I don't think they're equal. I had a solid engineering job before law school. That is to say I was doing interesting, complicated work but wasn't working for Facebook, Google, etc. I left because I wanted to make more money and because my "exit options" were engineering management, which is soul sucking. As an engineer in a major market, but outside Facebook/Google, you can pretty easily hit $100k by 30, but your salary pretty much tops out there. And because engineers are considered replaceable cogs (to a *far* greater degree than law firm associates), there is really no way to make more money by being better at your job. Then, as soon as you turn 40 you need to find an exit from engineering, because it becomes hard to find jobs unless you have very specialized skills.


Okay, one, that situation is often FAR BETTER than what a law school grad will EVER see. But even if its not...I don't think that outweighs wasting 3 years of the prime of your life + taking on debt that is requisite of entering the law game that wasn't requisite of you.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby r6_philly » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:44 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:Again, assumptions that this thread's key theme is regretting not getting the compensation they wanted, are wrong. One can regret law school for a number of reasons. And what upside are you talking about? The upside in 1995 maybe? What upside is there today IN GENERAL (not for the top 10% at top 10s). I see a lot of self-proclaimed blue-collar people in this thread. I was lucky enough to live quite well in my life, and realized that money will not bring one happiness or satisfaction. Many studies show doing something you enjoy, regardless of money, is the surest way to life-satisfaction.

On the flipside, I must also say, if you love doing what lawyers do...then you've already won, no matter where you work.

I just want to say good luck to everyone, and whether you regret it or not, don't let yourself be unhappy.


I am nowhere near top 10%, and I see my upside already. Most people in T10 (up and down the curve) are realizing more career potential than they would have without LS.

The problem is not with the practice of law, it is with the oversupply of law graduates who came to law school without understanding the cost/benefit analysis.

However, I thought this thread is about 3Ls WITH JOBS, so I feel like an upside discussion/comparison should be appropriate.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:51 pm

r6_philly wrote:I am nowhere near top 10%, and I see my upside already. Most people in T10 (up and down the curve) are realizing more career potential than they would have without LS.

The problem is not with the practice of law, it is with the oversupply of law graduates who came to law school without understanding the cost/benefit analysis.

However, I thought this thread is about 3Ls WITH JOBS, so I feel like an upside discussion/comparison should be appropriate.



How silly of me, I incorrectly shut out the outrageously large pool of students: "most people in a Top Ten law school." We all know they're a dime a dozen. (sarcasm).

But turning off facetious-mode, I'm truly happy for you that you are reaping benefits, apparently financial ones, from your law school decision. I am simply asserting that the discussion doesn't end there. And granted, even if it didn't end there, you probably still would prove your decision was a great one. I think you are an exception rather than the rule however, no matter how much cheery-optimism and Can-do quotes by Sean Connery from the rock make it seem.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:14 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:Okay, one, that situation is often FAR BETTER than what a law school grad will EVER see. But even if its not...I don't think that outweighs wasting 3 years of the prime of your life + taking on debt that is requisite of entering the law game that wasn't requisite of you.


I'm assuming we're talking about 3L's who got big law. I agree that if you took a random student out of the Top 1000 or whatever engineering programs their outcomes would probably be better than for a random student out of the Top 200 law schools. However, I think a random student from a Top 10 law school makes more money and has a more secure career, over the long term, than a random student from a Top 10 engineering school.

As for whether it's worth it overall--if over the course of my career I end up making the average amount for in-house legal counsel (http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Dow ... e_2012.pdf) I'll end up making a lot more money as a lawyer than I would have as an engineer, even accounting for the debt.[1] As for "wasting" three years of the "prime" of your life, both are highly subjective. I had way more fun in law school than I did in engineering school. It's like a three year vacation.[2] And if giving up a few years of the "prime" of my life means being able to afford sending my kids to Yale, well then it's totally worth it.

[1] To justify taking on $200k of debt, accounting for interest, you have to make about $7,500 more per year on average over a 40 year career.
[2] And law school is a great place to meet women if you're a nerd like me. :lol:

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:28 pm

rayiner wrote:I'm assuming we're talking about 3L's who got big law. I agree that if you took a random student out of the Top 1000 or whatever engineering programs their outcomes would probably be better than for a random student out of the Top 200 law schools. However, I think a random student from a Top 10 law school makes more money and has a more secure career, over the long term, than a random student from a Top 10 engineering school.

As for whether it's worth it overall--if over the course of my career I end up making the average amount for in-house legal counsel (http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Dow ... e_2012.pdf) I'll end up making a lot more money as a lawyer than I would have as an engineer, even accounting for the debt.[1] As for "wasting" three years of the "prime" of your life, both are highly subjective. I had way more fun in law school than I did in engineering school. It's like a three year vacation.[2] And if giving up a few years of the "prime" of my life means being able to afford sending my kids to Yale, well then it's totally worth it.

[1] To justify taking on $200k of debt, accounting for interest, you have to make about $7,500 more per year on average over a 40 year career.
[2] And law school is a great place to meet women if you're a nerd like me. :lol:


Fair enough. I must apologize in advance because I am a natural contrarian and like to poke and prod around people's thoughts. But, by the parameters of your own argument, which seemingly are based on income earned, would you not say the 3 years are wasted in the sense that you disallow yourself earning 3 years worth of income which is only exasperated by the fact that you are additionally (although I don't know for you specifically) taking on exorbitant loans.

To wit, I wouldn't necessarily use the metric of "being better than engineering school socially" to assess whether or not Law School is fun, but hey, to each his own.

And dear friend, you don't need law school to get women. If you're doing it that way you are limiting your options to a very poor field (as far as life partners go), which will in turn prevent any significant relationship lasting, which will (I assume) prevent the having kids part, which will prevent the need to pay for Yale tuition.

You're not a nerd dude, you're kicking *ss and on your way to being a lawyer I assume. Don't limit yourself to the (often times) boring, soulless women in law school.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.


Those are just subjective opinions.

What is not subjective is that attorneys are six times more likely to commit suicide than the general population. Attorneys are twice as likely to have an alcohol or substance abuse problem than the general population. Lawyers are three times more likely to suffer from depression than members of any other profession. There isn't a single trade or profession that comes close to touching any of these statistics.

Sure, every profession has its downsides, but the legal profession seems to have particularly tough demons to deal with (root cause may just be the type of people attracted to law).

To answer OP. I am a 3E, I am splitting with two market-paying firms this summer. At 28, I gave up a 35hr/week job earning ~$75k to go back to school. I don't regret the decision at all. I have enjoyed law school, but I am in a PT program. IMHO, it seems like PT programs are a little bit more relaxed because of the older students.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.


Those are just subjective opinions.

What is not subjective is that attorneys are six times more likely to commit suicide than the general population. Attorneys are twice as likely to have an alcohol or substance abuse problem than the general population. Lawyers are three times more likely to suffer from depression than members of any other profession. There isn't a single trade or profession that comes close to touching any of these statistics.

Sure, every profession has its downsides, but the legal profession seems to have particularly tough demons to deal with (root cause may just be the type of people attracted to law).

To answer OP. I am a 3E, I am splitting with two market-paying firms this summer. At 28, I gave up a 35hr/week job earning ~$75k to go back to school. I don't regret the decision at all. I have enjoyed law school, but I am in a PT program. IMHO, it seems like PT programs are a little bit more relaxed because of the older students.



Yea there is. Last I checked, dentists had the highest suicide rate not lawyers.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:14 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.


Those are just subjective opinions.

What is not subjective is that attorneys are six times more likely to commit suicide than the general population. Attorneys are twice as likely to have an alcohol or substance abuse problem than the general population. Lawyers are three times more likely to suffer from depression than members of any other profession. There isn't a single trade or profession that comes close to touching any of these statistics.

Sure, every profession has its downsides, but the legal profession seems to have particularly tough demons to deal with (root cause may just be the type of people attracted to law).

To answer OP. I am a 3E, I am splitting with two market-paying firms this summer. At 28, I gave up a 35hr/week job earning ~$75k to go back to school. I don't regret the decision at all. I have enjoyed law school, but I am in a PT program. IMHO, it seems like PT programs are a little bit more relaxed because of the older students.



Yea there is. Last I checked, dentists had the highest suicide rate not lawyers.


Just did a little basic research online from American psychological association and suicide rates are inconclusive. But an interesting thing they mentioned was that the medical profession did seem to have a high rate of suicide. Lawyers were further down the list. So yes, other professions do reach those issues just as lawyers do.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:20 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.


Those are just subjective opinions.

What is not subjective is that attorneys are six times more likely to commit suicide than the general population. Attorneys are twice as likely to have an alcohol or substance abuse problem than the general population. Lawyers are three times more likely to suffer from depression than members of any other profession. There isn't a single trade or profession that comes close to touching any of these statistics.

Sure, every profession has its downsides, but the legal profession seems to have particularly tough demons to deal with (root cause may just be the type of people attracted to law).

To answer OP. I am a 3E, I am splitting with two market-paying firms this summer. At 28, I gave up a 35hr/week job earning ~$75k to go back to school. I don't regret the decision at all. I have enjoyed law school, but I am in a PT program. IMHO, it seems like PT programs are a little bit more relaxed because of the older students.



Yea there is. Last I checked, dentists had the highest suicide rate not lawyers.


Just did a little basic research online from American psychological association and suicide rates are inconclusive. But an interesting thing they mentioned was that the medical profession did seem to have a high rate of suicide. Lawyers were further down the list. So yes, other professions do reach those issues just as lawyers do.


But, bro. I'm, like, in law school and depressed, and I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be if I were in med school. That has to count for something, right?

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:26 pm

I doubled in a hard science major at a very good undergrad and did very well. Knew tons of premeds, have lots of premed friends, and come from a family of doctors. I just want to address a few things re: medicine as an ideal profession.

1) While job prospects are good out of medical schools, do not automatically assume that people with the raw scores of T14 law schools align with that of top 100 med schools (sorry, I am not taking into consideration more schools than this because I think you'd have to be a fool to attend some schools below this at sticker/without a backup plan, and equally a fool to take out ~300k in med school loans if you aren't very, very gunnerish at a top top school). While there are always dumb eggs, you can get into some shitty med schools with around a 30 MCAT and a <3.5 GPA. Yeah, you can say "oh the MCAT is harder!" (it is not, unless you suck at memorization) or "science classes are harder!" (completely subjective, especially at T5 undergrads where excelling in 'classic' humanities majors is very difficult) That said, how many people here pining for medicine can even do that? Let me put it this way: not everyone is good at science. I have friends who are naturally brilliant businesspeople/analytical thinkers who slave away at an idea of premed and fail. You can extend this line of thinking to poorly-equipped lawyers as well, but just realize that there's no guarantee.

2) Medicine is not just about GPA/MCAT. It's not uncommon for 25% of your pay to hinge upon patient reviews. Yes, there are horrific doctors out there who should be banned from practicing, at best. But it is a social profession with a moral responsibility that I think many of the K-JDs here who have never had a job do not grasp. If people can't even handle working with indigent clients in PI, I cannot even imagine them treating paranoid schizophrenic crack addicts without incessant whining. As a doctor, unless you have your own practice or are in the a chic private hospital (don't count on it), you see every single person in society. All layers. I think this can be a great thing, but it is not for everyone. You gotta work your ass off to get into a desirable sub-speciality. Do you have the work ethic or raw intelligence for that? You want to be a surgeon? Are you squeamish, are you good with your hands? Trust me, people who think they can handle surgery often crumble when faced with reality during rounds and have to choose a different speciality. Also, a 6-7 year residency+fellowship for the most prestigious positions is hardly lucrative in the 'prime of your life.'

3) I know older doctors in advanced specialities who work insane hours. You can't bank on a ROAD speciality (and do you really want to do radiology if you aren't intensely antisocial?). Visiting intensive treatment wards was one of the most emotionally crippling images I had ever seen. The idea of doing that every day does not appeal to me, personally. Can you look into people's eyes and tell them they have months to live while their family is crumbling around them, or not even there because they don't care about this person? This sounds really hyperbolic, but the doctors in my family have to do this on a weekly basis. You end up becoming very immune to this kind of emotional response to things, and I never wanted that for myself. Your milage may vary. Yes, endless paperwork sucks, but you need a special temperament to be a good doctor, and lots of regretful lawyers/bright-eyed premeds just see $$$ (rapidly diminishing, btw) and honor (you need to be honorable to deserve it).

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:29 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:Just did a little basic research online from American psychological association and suicide rates are inconclusive. But an interesting thing they mentioned was that the medical profession did seem to have a high rate of suicide. Lawyers were further down the list. So yes, other professions do reach those issues just as lawyers do.



Well I'm glad that concludes it.... :roll:

Not even an issue though, why are we limiting the outlook to just Med School, Law School, B School, or Engineering. Are you a failure otherwise? I guess I have grossly overestimated the intelligence of people here if they are fatalistically deciding between the 4 based on which sucks the least. Sad really.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:35 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Just did a little basic research online from American psychological association and suicide rates are inconclusive. But an interesting thing they mentioned was that the medical profession did seem to have a high rate of suicide. Lawyers were further down the list. So yes, other professions do reach those issues just as lawyers do.



Well I'm glad that concludes it.... :roll:

Not even an issue though, why are we limiting the outlook to just Med School, Law School, B School, or Engineering. Are you a failure otherwise? I guess I have grossly overestimated the intelligence of people here if they are fatalistically deciding between the 4 based on which sucks the least. Sad really.



Dude, seriously its from the american psychological association and it says it's inconclusive. Read what I wrote. Did you not notice where I said INCONCLUSIVE!!! Learn to read. My point was he said no other profession touches those issues as law does. Some of the data, however, and inconclusive as it is,suggest that that is an inaccurate statement. He is just making blank statements about how other professions don't have those issues. They probably do.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:45 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
jetsetter12 wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:Just did a little basic research online from American psychological association and suicide rates are inconclusive. But an interesting thing they mentioned was that the medical profession did seem to have a high rate of suicide. Lawyers were further down the list. So yes, other professions do reach those issues just as lawyers do.



Well I'm glad that concludes it.... :roll:

Not even an issue though, why are we limiting the outlook to just Med School, Law School, B School, or Engineering. Are you a failure otherwise? I guess I have grossly overestimated the intelligence of people here if they are fatalistically deciding between the 4 based on which sucks the least. Sad really.



Dude, seriously its from the american psychological association and it says it's inconclusive. Read what I wrote. Did you not notice where I said INCONCLUSIVE!!! Learn to read. My point was he said no other profession touches those issues as law does. Some of the data, however, and inconclusive as it is,suggest that that is an inaccurate statement. He is just making blank statements about how other professions don't have those issues. They probably do.



Just do a google search of suicide rates by profession. I think you would be surprised what you find. Lawyer hardly ever comes up. Doctors do though. And I do consider places like the APA as being somewhat credible at least. But im sure its inconclusive. If you read some of the stats for some professions the whole thing just kind of seems stupid. Just end it there.

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sunynp
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby sunynp » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:00 pm

Why do all these threads turn into law v medicine.... and also depression?

Trying to get some anecdotes from (happy) or unhappy employed 3Ls was a decent idea. I am sure there are people who wish they had done something else, but it might be too early to tell who has regrets because these 3Ls haven't hit their full time real world job yet. At the same time, I'm sure some people who are very happy with their choice and will remain happy with their choice.

Rehashing which job is better and how depressed lawyers get is a waste of time. Or if you want, start another new thread on those topics.
Last edited by sunynp on Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:03 pm

sunynp wrote:Why do all these threads turn into law v medicine.... and also depression?


Lol probably because a lot of lawyers/students never cease trying to convince other people how "hard" their life is compared to others.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:04 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm assuming we're talking about 3L's who got big law. I agree that if you took a random student out of the Top 1000 or whatever engineering programs their outcomes would probably be better than for a random student out of the Top 200 law schools. However, I think a random student from a Top 10 law school makes more money and has a more secure career, over the long term, than a random student from a Top 10 engineering school.

As for whether it's worth it overall--if over the course of my career I end up making the average amount for in-house legal counsel (http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Dow ... e_2012.pdf) I'll end up making a lot more money as a lawyer than I would have as an engineer, even accounting for the debt.[1] As for "wasting" three years of the "prime" of your life, both are highly subjective. I had way more fun in law school than I did in engineering school. It's like a three year vacation.[2] And if giving up a few years of the "prime" of my life means being able to afford sending my kids to Yale, well then it's totally worth it.

[1] To justify taking on $200k of debt, accounting for interest, you have to make about $7,500 more per year on average over a 40 year career.
[2] And law school is a great place to meet women if you're a nerd like me. :lol:


Fair enough. I must apologize in advance because I am a natural contrarian and like to poke and prod around people's thoughts. But, by the parameters of your own argument, which seemingly are based on income earned, would you not say the 3 years are wasted in the sense that you disallow yourself earning 3 years worth of income which is only exasperated by the fact that you are additionally (although I don't know for you specifically) taking on exorbitant loans.

To wit, I wouldn't necessarily use the metric of "being better than engineering school socially" to assess whether or not Law School is fun, but hey, to each his own.

And dear friend, you don't need law school to get women. If you're doing it that way you are limiting your options to a very poor field (as far as life partners go), which will in turn prevent any significant relationship lasting, which will (I assume) prevent the having kids part, which will prevent the need to pay for Yale tuition.

You're not a nerd dude, you're kicking *ss and on your way to being a lawyer I assume. Don't limit yourself to the (often times) boring, soulless women in law school.


There is a big opportunity cost to going to law school, sure. For me it was probably $400k between tuition (note you have to subtract living expenses in this comparison), interest, and foregone income. However, do the math. If I would've made $85k as an engineer (on the high side for someone with 5 years of experience), I'll make about $450k more (over four years on the NY scale) if I make it four years at a big firm. So basically breaking even after exiting. A big law washout with 4 years of experience is going to make a lot more money over the rest of his career, on average, than an engineer. And the engineer, it he wants to be employable at 40, basically has to get his MBA, which will typically cost $200k in tuition and opportunity costs.

As for girls--I've met some awesome women in law school. Extremely funny, motivated, put together. Not a raft of 22 year old dimes, but that's not necessarily what you want in a partner. Not now that I'm pushing 30 anyway. And if we're discussing careers, it's definitely fair to bring up what engineering does to your social life. It's not fun to spend undergrad in a 10:1 male:female ratio environment. But that's part and parcel of engineering school. And part of being an engineer. You'll graduate with no female friends, and you'll end up working at a place with no women, so your social circle ends up being all dudes. That doesn't mean you can't go pick up women at a bar, sure, but it removes one of the main ways guys meet women--through social events with mutual friends.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby ruski » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:25 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:

Not even an issue though, why are we limiting the outlook to just Med School, Law School, B School, or Engineering. Are you a failure otherwise? I guess I have grossly overestimated the intelligence of people here if they are fatalistically deciding between the 4 based on which sucks the least. Sad really.


because those would be most people's options if they could go back? this is exactly the attitude that got most people into this law school mess - hey i dont need to learn any hard skills that will help my professional career, ill just do ______ studies and have all these doors open up for me in non-traditional careers. most people who do end up in non-traditoinal career paths do it by going to one of those paths but jumping for new opportunities when they come up - its not something that's really planned as a 20 year old in college.

the whole point in bringing up medicine/engineering/whatever is to say it's pointless to wish we could go back, because had we been engineers now we would be looking at our biglaw buddies seeing all the perks and thinking "his job is not really as bad as he thinks it is, look at all that money he's earning." or if we were doctors we'd be 28 years old still scraping by a living while jealous of our biglaw buddies who are already raking it in. it doesn't matter who REALLY has it the worse, because no matter what position we end up being in, we think we are the ones who have it the worst.
Last edited by ruski on Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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