Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

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jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:21 am

RedBirds2011 wrote:This. Most people don't realize that doctors out of med school have a little thing called residency to deal with. You know how much a doc makes right out of med school...around 40K with even more debt than a law student. And those residencies can last for YEARS before they finally start making the real money. So you probably should not do med either if all your interested in is money because you won't see it for a long time. Moral of the story, stop overanalyzing the shit out of everything. Find a job you are passionate about and just fucking do it. And try to limit debt while you're at it.

The biggest problem is people on this site and 0Ls often look at law school and other grad schools as if they are stocks in the stock market. You do need to be very careful of debt, but honestly if you are second guessing becoming a lawyer this much then you really don't want it. Therefore, just don't do it.


If only this common sense was shared amongst the masses on and off TLS.

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NinerFan
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:22 am

jetsetter12 wrote:
NinerFan wrote:I'm a 2L at a T-14 doing a biglaw SA in a month. Won't graduate with much debt, at least, not much debt to the DOE.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would not go to law school or I would have retaken the LSAT for more scholarship money. If I wasn't in law school, I'd probably be working for 30-50k a year like many of my undergrad friends in an entry level position or a low-level consulting position, etc.

The primary problem with law for me is the insecurity of the job. My non-law friends can rest easy knowing that unless their company goes under, they're probably not going to lose their jobs as long as they work hard and do a good job. In biglaw, the idea that because some partner made 800k this year instead of 900k and so the firm is going to fire 10% of its staff is both sad and terrifying. My friends don't necessarily love their jobs, but most of them don't hate it.

The only clear winners I've seen so far are those in legal academia.



What are your feelings on the grind of being a junior associate? Do you think you can stomach the first 3-4 years of that? But hey dude, I'm glad you have that opportunity at least. MUUUCH better than the alternative. Just interested in knowing.


What I know about the grind comes from the talking I've done a cousin who's former big-law and a few connections that I've chatted with. One V5 associate I talked to said they billed about 2500 hours last year, and that I should expect to actually work at least 15% more than that. I don't know if that means they're including commuting time and other things, or if it's that they billed 15% more than that but only 2500 of it counted. You do the math on the kind of commitment that requires.

Without having actually experienced it myself, I have no idea how much of it I can stomach. I tell myself I can stick it out as long as I need to until I find something better, but who knows? I hear many classes of associates lose a few people in the first year alone, and it's like the hunger games until there's a few left when the class goes up for partnership.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby roaringeagle » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:29 am

NinerFan wrote:
tedalbany wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:Really, we're all idiots for not going to med school. It's the one major field that has the whole monopoly thing figured out pretty well.


The most important thing to remember is there is no 'dream field'. There are plenty of downsides to the medical field; increasing red tape, less patient interaction with more hoops to jump through, rising costs and declining pay, the fact you don't earn decent money until you're close to 40, and you pretty much give up any hope of having a life before then... Many of them wish they had gone to law school, at least there they'd have the chance of making good money while still in their 20s.

Just find something you like and are good at, that would you wouldn't go crazy doing for the rest of your life, and stop worrying about stupid shit that won't end up mattering in the long run like money or prestige.


It's a grind in the beginning during residency, but afterwards if you go private practice, the hours are pretty good and the pay is good enough. I'm also jealous that primary care is, for my med school friends, the worst case scenario. They're gunning for surgery and the more prestigious specialities, but worst case scenario, they go into primary care and open up a private practice down the road. With law, especially big law, it seems like it's just a pure grind, even if you make it to the top.

Other good fields? Pharmacy and Dentistry seem pretty decent too, if 4 days a week my dentist works is any indication.


The thing with doctors is that unless you do something really stupid, or fail out of medical school, you will have a job. If you do really well and specialize in something like surgery or urology etc. you can really make it rain. One of my doctors has Porsche catalogs in his office. Dentists have to look at teeth all day and are not real doctors, but they have easy lives and can make really good money. Pharmacists have stressful lives and can't make big bucks like the doctors or dentists.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:29 am

NinerFan wrote:
tedalbany wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:Really, we're all idiots for not going to med school. It's the one major field that has the whole monopoly thing figured out pretty well.


The most important thing to remember is there is no 'dream field'. There are plenty of downsides to the medical field; increasing red tape, less patient interaction with more hoops to jump through, rising costs and declining pay, the fact you don't earn decent money until you're close to 40, and you pretty much give up any hope of having a life before then... Many of them wish they had gone to law school, at least there they'd have the chance of making good money while still in their 20s.

Just find something you like and are good at, that would you wouldn't go crazy doing for the rest of your life, and stop worrying about stupid shit that won't end up mattering in the long run like money or prestige.


It's a grind in the beginning during residency, but afterwards if you go private practice, the hours are pretty good and the pay is good enough. I'm also jealous that primary care is, for my med school friends, the worst case scenario. They're gunning for surgery and the more prestigious specialities, but worst case scenario, they go into primary care and open up a private practice down the road. With law, especially big law, it seems like it's just a pure grind, even if you make it to the top.

Other good fields? Pharmacy and Dentistry seem pretty decent too, if 4 days a week my dentist works is any indication.


Primary care physicians struggle and talk people out of medicine very similarly to law folks. From what I understand from fam members in this, this is the reason there is a bad shortage of primary care physicians and that most med school grads spend the better half of a decade working on 40,000 wages to specialize in more lucrative fields such as cardiology. To be a specialist such as this you need 3 years internal medicine and 3-5 ADDITIONAL years of fellowship working at around 40-50,000 before you can even dream of the money those specialists eventually do make. And mind you, this is after 4 years of med school. And this is all while being in more debt than a law grad and working MUCH WORSE hours than a big law associate. So honestly, the work ethic those people have, I think, makes us look like such posers. You say we should all have gone to med school yet most of us would never make it through that grind if we are so "jaded" by this one. The people that make it are the ones passionate about what they do. So find something you're truly passionate about, limit debt, and then go do it. End analysis :)
Last edited by RedBirds2011 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:32 am

NinerFan wrote:What I know about the grind comes from the talking I've done a cousin who's former big-law and a few connections that I've chatted with. One V5 associate I talked to said they billed about 2500 hours last year, and that I should expect to actually work at least 15% more than that. I don't know if that means they're including commuting time and other things, or if it's that they billed 15% more than that but only 2500 of it counted. You do the math on the kind of commitment that requires.

Without having actually experienced it myself, I have no idea how much of it I can stomach. I tell myself I can stick it out as long as I need to until I find something better, but who knows? I hear many classes of associates lose a few people in the first year alone, and it's like the hunger games until there's a few left when the class goes up for partnership.



Thanks for that. Hey man, last thing I want to do is be Debbie Downer. You made it this far, you wouldn't have if you weren't worthy. I have no doubt that if you knuckle down and MAXIMUS DECIMUS MERIDIUS that mother f*cker for a few years you'll be on your way to partner. Glad to hear you have the shot.

But at the same time, there are no rules to this crazy thing called life. Do it your way and you'll be truly successful in my book.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:42 am

I will mention that dentistry does seem like a pretty low path of resistance, but I'm pretty ignorant about that field. It seems if you can get into dental school you really are golden. High pay with very little grind at all other than just getting into and through dental school. But I hear they have the highest suicide rate for some reason? Go figure.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:53 am

Other careers look great when you ignore the negatives. I don't get the med school love on this board. If you don't have that maternal/nurturing drive to help people, 90% of the specialties seem miserable. Better dominate that USMLE if you want one of the few hundred residencies for the high-paying specialties.

On banking, the marginal increase in hours over other careers seems crazy unless the economy (and bonuses) are rolling. Doesn't seem to be the case now.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:56 am

Bunch of whiners. The attitude ITT is very indicative of the attitude of law students in general - they have no fuckin clue how the world works.

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:Bunch of whiners. The attitude ITT is very indicative of the attitude of law students in general - they have no fuckin clue how the world works.



And often that is precisely the reason they went to law school. I don't think they're whining though, just giving their feelings openly when asked for them. If calling people names made you feel better, by all means do it, but no need to in this thread.

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PARTY
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby PARTY » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:06 am

it must be nice to be able to talk down to others from behind the mask of anonymous user.

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rayiner
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:21 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
jetsetter12 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I would fo sho forgo law school if i could redo this. probably gmat it up and go to b school. party hard, study little, make mad money (if you go to a good school) and chillllllllllllllllllllllllll. Not that this couldn't describe law school (except for the study little part), but i think that makes it all better looking back on how I've spent the last three years. GTFO if you can 0L's looking through this forum...



yikes


Here are some of the reasons b-school is superior to law school

1. If you go to the top law schools (MVPBDCNG), you still have a long-shot chance of getting a job that will pay off your loans, this isn't the case in top b-schools.

2. B-school is 18 months to two years. That's a lower cost of tuition and a lower opportunity cost in lost income.

3. Law school prepares you for one thing; passing law school exams and papers. It also marks your resume that you can only do legal things. B-school at least leaves you capable of entering a multitude of industries without people second-guessing your intentions.

4. In law school, especially top law schools, they pretend they are teaching the law and how to think like a lawyer. This has very very little connection to what you actually do as a lawyer (clinics aside), so unless you go to a big firm that will train you, you have little value. In b-school they prep you to actually do what a first year analyst or consultant or entrepreneur does, so you leave with actual skills.

5. There are no bar exams, state bar commissions/associations, and MRPC that tie your hands from performing certain lucrative and legal things (like selling a share of your business to a non-practitioner).

6. While you can go to b-school and get a shitty job; b-schools don't have the bizarre bi-modal salary distribution that law does where it's biglaw or bust.

7. With an MBA/MS, you can start in a shitty job out of b-school and work your way up lateraling or leaving to found your own company or switching industries. In law, it's almost impossible to crack into biglaw unless you started there or had fed honors. Law has far fewer roads that lead to lucrative salaries compared to the business world.


The flip side is:

1) Even at an M7 b-school, you're not coming out making as much money as big law. The jobs that pay comparably or more than big law are in finance and consulting, and getting into finance depends a lot on your pre-law background. And outside of HSW, there are not a whole lot of people going into finance even from the M7.

Check out the JD-MBA stats at Northwestern (whose B-school is M7 and law school is T-14): http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... tstats.htm

In 2007, more JD-MBA's chose to go into law than either consulting or finance. When finance collapsed, the large majority of the class went into law.

2) Even at an M7 school, a large percentage of the class has trouble finding employment. Check out the employment report at Kellogg: http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Pro ... 0E335.ashx. Only 75% reported their job acceptance.

3) The jobs out of B-school that do pay comparably to law (consulting and finance) are just as stressful. Finance is more hours overall, and the travel involved in consulting is soul-sucking. A lawyer might feel guilty for coming home at midnight, but at least he's not in some god forsaken small town in the middle of nowhere giving a powerpoint presentation.

4) The jobs out of B-school that do pay comparably to law have similar up-or-out structures. Whereas law firms will generally let you stick around until you're rejected for partnership (if you can put in the hours), banks and consulting firms start actively weeding out on merit in the first few years. And once you're out, you're not existing into $300k/year jobs. Now, jobs out of b-school have a substantial upside (F500 CEO's make more than law firm partners), but in-house salaries in law are comparable to management salaries in public companies.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:13 am

I'm a 2L with a V5 SA lined up. Went to a shitty state school, and ended up with a shitty GPA and a shitty major. If I hadn't gone to law school after graduating UG, I would probably be either unemployed or working some horrible low-level, $30/yr job with virtually no opportunity for moving up. If I could turn back the clock, before UG, would I have done something different? I don't know. I think things have worked out pretty well for me so far and I don't think I would take a gamble just because something else may turn out better.

Law students are awful about glamorizing any profession they're not a part of. Maybe the problem is that a significant portion of them didn't have real jobs before law school and it's difficult for them to compare. It seems like the majority of straight-from-undergrad-to-law-school people I've talked to lately seem to think that going into dentistry / going to business school / trying to become a police officer is a guarantee of an impressive salary (that will only go up!), rock-solid job security, and an abundance of free time.

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rayiner
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 2L with a V5 SA lined up. Went to a shitty state school, and ended up with a shitty GPA and a shitty major. If I hadn't gone to law school after graduating UG, I would probably be either unemployed or working some horrible low-level, $30/yr job with virtually no opportunity for moving up. If I could turn back the clock, before UG, would I have done something different? I don't know. I think things have worked out pretty well for me so far and I don't think I would take a gamble just because something else may turn out better.

Law students are awful about glamorizing any profession they're not a part of. Maybe the problem is that a significant portion of them didn't have real jobs before law school and it's difficult for them to compare. It seems like the majority of straight-from-undergrad-to-law-school people I've talked to lately seem to think that going into dentistry / going to business school / trying to become a police officer is a guarantee of an impressive salary (that will only go up!), rock-solid job security, and an abundance of free time.


It's not just law students... I had a law school admissions interview with an alum from one school, now a partner at a nice mid-sized firm. When he saw that I had majored in aerospace engineering, he went "man, you're a rocket scientist, why would you want to go to law school?" I didn't fully understand the comment at the time, but now as a 3L I find it quite amusing. The partner didn't understand the reality of the aerospace industry. His image of it was like peoples' images of lawyers based on Boston Legal: a fiction. The smart kids who go to school to be rocket scientists get out to find themselves in a dying industry. Little real innovation has happened since the 1970's, and most of the interesting stuff is defense work. You think it's bad having to defend "evil corporations"--try figuring out how to couch every new technology in terms of how it'll be good for blowing up brown people in the middle east. And it's effectively all on the government dole (a.k.a defense contractor welfare). The work is interesting at times, but mostly tedious, with insane layers of bureaucracy. You think working at a 700+ lawyer firm is bad--try working at a big public corporation where you're literally an employee ID number.

And it's insecure! Engineers don't have as much trouble as lawyers getting hired or moving jobs, but they also get laid off constantly. And the whole field is threatened by off-shoring in a way law could never be: http://www.marketplace.org/topics/busin ... osing-jobs. Moreover, while a lawyer gets more valuable with age and experience, an engineer hits his peak around 15-20 years of experience, and as they approach their late 40's it becomes a huge struggle to keep ones' skills up to date and finding a new job after each layoff becomes harder and harder. You know the lawyer scary stories about someone working at a decent firm then eventually getting pushed out and making $70k at some dead-end job? Well engineers have similar stories, except they're along the lines of "worked as a software engineer for 20 years then hit 45 and became unhireable, now deliver pizzas." I'm not even joking: http://www.salon.com/2004/02/03/mcjobs/

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Lawl Shcool » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:34 am

This thread is a great example of why law students (and most lawyers) are so terrible to be around in real life. Everyone just fucking complains all the time (yes, I see the irony in that statement). Why is everyone so unhappy? if you don't like it, go do something else, especially if you're still in school.

I personally have loved law school and the legal internships I've had, I can honestly say it has been the best thing to happen in my life. I would do it 10/10 times if put in the same position, and I started at one of the worst law schools in the country. I worked a lot of jobs before coming to law school, despite being a K-JD, and the main reason I wanted to do law was because I wanted to get paid to use my brain, not my body. No matter what type of law, even "shit law" which only exists on TLS, is better than busting your ass doing manual labor all day. On top of that, firms pay you an outrageous salary and give you all kinds of freedom. You have to bills a lot of hours, which requires you being at the office a lot. However, you can bill those hours whichever way you want. If you like getting up early, you can work 6-5, or if you have more of a typical schedule (for working people), you can work 9-7/8, OR you can work NYC hours and show up at 10am and work till 10pm. That is the great thing about law, you have complete control over your schedule, nobody cares when you work, only that you bill the hours. You have your own fancy office and secretary as a first year, along with tons of resources and benefits to help you get your work done. If you want to dip out for a couple hours in the afternoon, nobody is going to stop you, you just have to make up that time later.

People really don't understand the luxury of being able to adjust your work schedule to how you best perform. The counter argument is the sheer amount of work you need to do, which is a legit concern. But, if you are a 25-30 year old looking at making 6 figures and the only catch is you need to work hard and long hours, you're an asshole if you complain about it. Maybe I come from a blue collar / low class background but a lot of my friends would literally cut off a limb to be in a position to work 80 hours and pull down 3k/week. Hell, if I wasn't doing legal work but could work those hours for the same pay doing manual labor, I'd take it no questions asked.

Also, I know TLS won't agree with this, but it isn't that hard to get a firm job. If I could do it, literally anybody can. If you are smart enough to get into a t1 school out of college (which I wasn't even close to), the only thing holding you back is how hard you work. I expect to catch flack for that statement but there is no way you can convince me otherwise. If you are smart enough to get into a school, you're smart enough to be #1 in the class, so go do it. On top of that, if you have any sort of personality, you will stand out interviewing (still need the grades though).

"Everyone is smart and works hard" - worker harder and compete. Law school requires a bare minimum level of intelligence to succeed, after that it is on how hard/smart you work. If you are below median, it is your own fault, not the system or anything else, you simply didn't want it bad enough to make the necessary sacrifices. It is 1 year of your life that matters for getting a firm job, suck it up and make it happen. If you want to do something, you need to commit to it, for real, not just long hours but also going to office hours, preparing for class, making your own outlines, taking practice tests, finding a good study group, etc. The sentiment doesn't resonate as well on the internet as in real life, but if you really truly want to do something, then don't take no for an answer and go do it. Losers make excuses and complain on the internet, winners go home and fuck the prom queen.

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FlanAl
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby FlanAl » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:24 am

this thread gives me tons of hope! no unemployed 3L's reporting in at all!!!

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:15 am

FlanAl wrote:this thread gives me tons of hope! no unemployed 3L's reporting in at all!!!


I'll go ahead and shatter your hopes (sorry). 3L, top-30 school, top-10%, all the good stuff (LR, moot court, tons of legal experience outside law school), and was no-offered earlier this year at a place I had worked at for the last year. Does it suck that I am "unemployed" in the sense that I don't have a long-term job lines up? Yea, but I am actually embracing the opportunity to find something great and use all of the lines on my resume to maximize my chances.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:17 am

2L near the very top of the class at a T6 school. Scholarship $$ mean I'll graduate with next to no debt. Had the pick of jobs all over the country after OCI including all the top firms.

If I could do it all again I wouldn't have chosen law school. School itself can be grueling, especially if you want top of the class grades, but it usually isn't awful. I have made great friends and at times classes are interesting.

However, the best scenario for most people going into law school is scoring a biglaw job, and the jobs just aren't that good/worth the money. Being a lawyer is basically a crappy service industry job. The work is dull and stressful at the same time. You are at the beck and call of the kids who went to B-school. While the pay is pretty good, it isn't great for the hours you work.

If I could have a do over all the way back to high school I would have done something more worthwhile in UG. If I could talk to my pre-LS self I'd tell myself to go to b-school.

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FlanAl
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby FlanAl » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
FlanAl wrote:this thread gives me tons of hope! no unemployed 3L's reporting in at all!!!


I'll go ahead and shatter your hopes (sorry). 3L, top-30 school, top-10%, all the good stuff (LR, moot court, tons of legal experience outside law school), and was no-offered earlier this year at a place I had worked at for the last year. Does it suck that I am "unemployed" in the sense that I don't have a long-term job lines up? Yea, but I am actually embracing the opportunity to find something great and use all of the lines on my resume to maximize my chances.


Yeah, I knew they were out there it was just kinda funny that this thread was a bunch of people with big law saying how they would do it different. I'm sorry to hear you are having a hard time and i wish you luck on your job hunt.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:32 am

FlanAl wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Yeah, I knew they were out there it was just kinda funny that this thread was a bunch of people with big law saying how they would do it different. I'm sorry to hear you are having a hard time and i wish you luck on your job hunt.


Thank you and I share your sentiments about the tone of the thread and the irony. I am not too concerned for my future personally because I know I am in a strong position as a job candidate with good, solid experience and good grades. Just have to find the open doors now (or make my own).

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby studebaker07 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:41 am

FlanAl wrote:this thread gives me tons of hope! no unemployed 3L's reporting in at all!!!


+1. I'm a 3L without one of those lucrative biglaw jobs (and probably no chance to get one) but I am not bitter at all about the decision I made to go to law school. I have worked two jobs during my 2L and 3L years and I have loved every minute of it. Granted the actual practice of law might be *slightly* more stressful (okay, maybe a lot more stressful) but I really think it depends on your attitude. Naturally, those that really enjoy what they do won't find the work that stressful even if it requires long hours. My parents always told me that if you can't do what you like, like what you do.

True the legal model of today might be drastically different than it was a decade ago in terms of how people get jobs and what those jobs look like when you get one, but maybe this is just a signal that recent law grads need to adapt to their surroundings. Maybe the traditional path to perceived success is simply different today and requires a different skill set than most people may have imagined. Look around, we are still in a pretty ugly recession, most every other industry is hurting right now.

I'm a 3L. I'm unemployed. And I take a glass half full approach.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:19 am

Lawl Shcool wrote:"Everyone is smart and works hard" - worker harder and compete. Law school requires a bare minimum level of intelligence to succeed, after that it is on how hard/smart you work. If you are below median, it is your own fault, not the system or anything else, you simply didn't want it bad enough to make the necessary sacrifices.


You realize even if everyone took your advice to heart, someone has to be below median right? I know people that followed TLS guides to the letter, worked their asses off every day, and still ended at median or below. But you're probably right, they just didn't want it bad enough :roll:

Back on track. I'm a 1L with a BigLaw SA lined up for the summer. Probably would have majored in something useful if I could turn back time and gone to b-school instead. But maybe this is an example of grass is greener-on-the-other-side mentality.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby phx » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:23 am

rayiner wrote:It's not just law students... I had a law school admissions interview with an alum from one school, now a partner at a nice mid-sized firm. When he saw that I had majored in aerospace engineering, he went "man, you're a rocket scientist, why would you want to go to law school?" I didn't fully understand the comment at the time, but now as a 3L I find it quite amusing. The partner didn't understand the reality of the aerospace industry. His image of it was like peoples' images of lawyers based on Boston Legal: a fiction. The smart kids who go to school to be rocket scientists get out to find themselves in a dying industry. Little real innovation has happened since the 1970's, and most of the interesting stuff is defense work. You think it's bad having to defend "evil corporations"--try figuring out how to couch every new technology in terms of how it'll be good for blowing up brown people in the middle east. And it's effectively all on the government dole (a.k.a defense contractor welfare). The work is interesting at times, but mostly tedious, with insane layers of bureaucracy. You think working at a 700+ lawyer firm is bad--try working at a big public corporation where you're literally an employee ID number.

And it's insecure! Engineers don't have as much trouble as lawyers getting hired or moving jobs, but they also get laid off constantly. And the whole field is threatened by off-shoring in a way law could never be: http://www.marketplace.org/topics/busin ... osing-jobs. Moreover, while a lawyer gets more valuable with age and experience, an engineer hits his peak around 15-20 years of experience, and as they approach their late 40's it becomes a huge struggle to keep ones' skills up to date and finding a new job after each layoff becomes harder and harder. You know the lawyer scary stories about someone working at a decent firm then eventually getting pushed out and making $70k at some dead-end job? Well engineers have similar stories, except they're along the lines of "worked as a software engineer for 20 years then hit 45 and became unhireable, now deliver pizzas." I'm not even joking: http://www.salon.com/2004/02/03/mcjobs/


Dude you killed this. This is exactly what I've been struggling to explain to people. I would only edit your comments to say "99% of the engineering industry" instead of aerospace industry. Unless you're lucky/determined enough to have broken into the Silicon Valley gravy train, the remaining 99% of engineering work is dominated by gigantic bureaucratic corporations who are determined to ship every last one of their engineering jobs to India or China. Middle management at these companies is dominated by former engineers who have turned themselves into MS Excel spreadsheet jockeys and who have no idea how to actually manage a team, or business administration/finance types who don't understand the engineering process.

The only previously "secure" engineering work out there was defense contracting because of the security clearance requirement. In addition to the negatives already pointed out by rayiner, it's also only secure as long as you don't get your security clearance revoked (in which case you get fired, and I've seen it happen more frequently than I thought it would), or as long as the Pentagon keeps throwing around money, which is no longer the case.

LordBeric
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby LordBeric » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:35 am

I fit the criteria but don't regret it at all. The worst part of law school is dealing with all these sissies who are crying about their 160k jobs lined up when we are making quadruple what most people our age make. People from law school tend to be a miserable bunch of people who are always trying to explain why their life is crap, and I guess I regret having to deal with these babies for three years and the toll their negativity can take on your own attitude.

But seriously I entered law school as a 23 year old with a good undergrad degree and no job prospects. I exit with an awesome job, am getting laid more than ever, don't ever have to live with mom and dad again (unlike most of my friends with just UG degrees), and my Biglaw job sets me up to live like an absolute P.I.M.P. It may have helped that I actually had a Biglaw area I was extremely interested in before I entered.

Law school seems to be a way better deal for men from what I see, most girls seem to be jealous of their friends married to men with Biglaw type jobs without the effort and resent that men find Biglaw hours to be undesirable. There is a weird social dynamic where men are becoming increasingly hot commodities whereas the opposite is true for single females. Spending 60 hours at work a week in your most desirable period is a tough commitment, and I really sympathize with girls who take a hit to their stock by doing it.

Anyway, I think law school drastically improved my life, but because of the past reasons I think its a good deal only for men and not women, which I think in many ways is a shame.

keg411
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby keg411 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:53 am

2L + SA + non-trad-ish + too much debt

Personally, I'm glad I went to law school and I'm also glad I waited. And contrary to what the early poster said, I didn't "fail" at my first career at all -- in fact, I did very well at it, but it wasn't something I could see myself doing for the rest of my life. For my professional life, law school was probably the best thing that happened to me. Sure, I have struggles and there are times that I think it sucks and there are definitely flaws with the system. But overall I really can't say I regret it.

... unless I manage to get myself no-offered this summer :|.

Anonymous User
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:55 am

i agree the law sucks but what a lot of people in this thread don't realize is that most jobs suck. i have friends who are medical interns, engineers, bankers etc. it is funny because we are all a little envious of each other. we always argue who has the worst job.

the medical intern spent 8 years studying, and is not making about 40k a year. and will continue with that salary for another few years until he's a resident. his hours are awful and has a pretty messed up schedule. the engineer is also bitter because he will never break 100k. i know bankers who are miserable because their 2 year stint is up and they didn't place into a good HF/PE shop (very few do , esp nowadays) so the ones that got their contract extended are forced to do banking for another year, and the ones who didn't get an offer to stay on for a third year (since analyst contracts expire in 2 years) are completely stressed out and f'ed because they have no job prospects or any job security for that matter and what they thought was their "golden ticket" was really just a waste of 2 years. so in conclusion, yes law sucks, but so do most other professions. grass is always greener.




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