Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

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jetsetter12
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Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:26 am

....that would not have gone to law school if they could do it all over again?

flcath
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby flcath » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:42 am

I'm a 2L, but I meet the other criteria. Am I not invited ITT?

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:18 am

Alum. I know lots of fellow grads who are working in supposedly desirable legal jobs (e.g., DPW, Mayer) who would take a non-law school do-over in a heartbeat. I feel differently, though.

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DrGuano
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby DrGuano » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:17 pm

What does ITT mean? I missed the boat on that one a long time ago and have always wondered.

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sharkweek
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby sharkweek » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:32 pm

ITT= in this thread

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NoleinNY
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby NoleinNY » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:35 pm

EDIT: Damn, scooped.

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Emma.
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Emma. » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:41 pm

flcath wrote:I'm a 2L, but I meet the other criteria. Am I not invited ITT?


This.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Alum. I know lots of fellow grads who are working in supposedly desirable legal jobs (e.g., DPW, Mayer) who would take a non-law school do-over in a heartbeat. I feel differently, though.


I got a biglaw summer job on my second run through OCI by the skin of my teeth and am lucky enough that it will be something I like doing. But, at the same time, law school has completely warped my life for the foreseeable future. Beyond the law school process itself, the terror of being called on and embarrassed in front of 100 people by a professor who wants to see the pain, of being the stupidest person in the room in a room just because you're in the 98% and they're all in the 99th, the night terrors I and many of my friends developed, and the realization that all those jokes about most biglaw and shitlaw being horrible people who are divorced, alcoholics who hate their clients and don't do meaningful, real legal work are all true.

But then after law school, there is the realization of the debt I took on to get this degree and prospective job. One screw-up at work, a decision to spend time with my family and spouse over hours re-drafting memos, a boss who decides I'm a threat to them or needs my headcount for a friend, or just the burnout associated with a job where everyone I've met drives into downtown because "the metro hours (5am-midnight) are so inconvenient with when I leave work" and I'll be struggling to make my loan payments. I've seen friends get no-offered/cold-offered, marriages on the rocks when firms refuse to let you transfer offices, and the misery of people who wanted to go into law for something wholesome, but realized they have to be chained to their desk to make their loan payments.

Even further beyond that fear, is the idea that even if I can grind and produce perfect work for a reasonable boss, this is a seven year marathon to finding a new job when I don't make partner and am put out to pasture because I suck at schmoozing and don't come from a connected family. So even though I won the golden ticket in law school by getting a 160 job, I can't enjoy it because I know it has a limited lifespan no matter how well I perform. Try explaining to a spouse that you have to live like you're both in college again because your profession can randomly fire hardworking employees (Lathamized anyone?), blow up without notice (Dewey care Howrey?), and will take you out back to the woodshed at the beginning of year eight regardless of your student loan progress.

I do perform extremely well on standardized tests though and would have had a very good shot at the T14-equivalent in b-schools if I hadn't approached my first job out of college as a short-term path to law school. Looking back, I probably should have gone that route, as it would have meant a lower but reliable salary for a few years, then a couple years of school somewhere a bit more focused on finding you a job without destroying your self-esteem, and then a broader world of opportunities that lawyers will never see.

One big change that helped my job hunt was admitting that I was basically selling my dignity as a person for a job. Thinking about it simply as a transaction where I accept pain for money helped me become very detached from the daily rejection from every "dream job." On the flip side though, viewing the failure to get any job as meaning I would be homeless also helped me to get outside my comfort zone in the job search process. The best advice a biglaw partner ever gave me was that if people weren't shouting me out of their offices on a weekly basis, I wasn't trying hard enough. I've kicked down office doors, slept in airports, and called dozens of random alums trying to guilt them into hiring me. That's the level of desperation (that's really quite sad) you need to develop in law school.

Also, developing an extreme fatalism that the world is corrupt and irrational helped a lot as well because I didn't have a perplexed look on my face when someone would tell me they enjoy doc review because it lets them turn off their brain and get off the treadmill of normal associate work; that they could sometimes go 15 hours at a stretch enjoying just clicking because it was so must less stressful than their routine work. Oddly, it also made me a better interviewer to go in spouting buzzwords and cliche phrases my CSO taught me in a tone of voice that made it clear I didn't care about life compared to actually describing my interests and what I really wanted to do.

Sorry if that sounds a bit negative OP, but it only gets worse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3sEsWTPfYQ

EDIT: Two stories I forgot about that are worth relating about people who have jobs.

1. A high school friend of mine ended up at a TTTT (in part from my urging, I regret it) and has a temporary shitlaw job for a solo who specializes in tax liens. Besides his regular work running down titles in the county office and driving the solo to work, he also has such fun tasks as helping the now-divorced alcoholic into his hernia truss and, before that, setting up his second cellphone and email account for the endless mistresses the guy had. The solo is always on the edge of bankruptcy (my friend has been owed several thousand in back salary for most of his time there) and spends every penny in the strip clubs and bars, but even more shockingly, my friend is glad he has this job as his friends tell him that this solo is one of the better shitlaw lawyers in their local area.

2. Another friend of mine summered at a big firm. He was super smart and qualified for the work, so when I saw him at the end of summer with a bloody eyeball, I asked what happened. Apparently his boss had been working him until after midnight every night of the summer and had refused to give him time off to go to a doctor for another medical issue. So he found a doctor who could see him early and got meds, but then had to sleep under his desk when the meds knocked him out. That cut into his billable time, which meant he had to work later. His doctor described it as a stress induced bursting of the capillaries in the eyeball. My friend was eager to find any non-biglaw job after graduation, so I wasn't sure if they were just faking because they had done a bad job or something. But then I found another friend who worked at the same firm and they said they liked it, except for this one sadistic partner who abused the hell out of another summer. That summer was my other friend with the eyeball. They both had jobs, but one would have moved anywhere and done anything to avoid the consequences of losing in the random assignment of summers.

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:44 pm

flcath wrote:I'm a 2L, but I meet the other criteria. Am I not invited ITT?



Do tell your story...glad to hear it.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:15 pm

I would fo sho forgo law school if i could redo this. probably gmat it up and go to b school. party hard, study little, make mad money (if you go to a good school) and chillllllllllllllllllllllllll. Not that this couldn't describe law school (except for the study little part), but i think that makes it all better looking back on how I've spent the last three years. GTFO if you can 0L's looking through this forum...

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I would fo sho forgo law school if i could redo this. probably gmat it up and go to b school. party hard, study little, make mad money (if you go to a good school) and chillllllllllllllllllllllllll. Not that this couldn't describe law school (except for the study little part), but i think that makes it all better looking back on how I've spent the last three years. GTFO if you can 0L's looking through this forum...



yikes

LawIdiot86
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:38 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I would fo sho forgo law school if i could redo this. probably gmat it up and go to b school. party hard, study little, make mad money (if you go to a good school) and chillllllllllllllllllllllllll. Not that this couldn't describe law school (except for the study little part), but i think that makes it all better looking back on how I've spent the last three years. GTFO if you can 0L's looking through this forum...



yikes


Here are some of the reasons b-school is superior to law school

1. If you go to the top law schools (MVPBDCNG), you still have a long-shot chance of getting a job that will pay off your loans, this isn't the case in top b-schools.

2. B-school is 18 months to two years. That's a lower cost of tuition and a lower opportunity cost in lost income.

3. Law school prepares you for one thing; passing law school exams and papers. It also marks your resume that you can only do legal things. B-school at least leaves you capable of entering a multitude of industries without people second-guessing your intentions.

4. In law school, especially top law schools, they pretend they are teaching the law and how to think like a lawyer. This has very very little connection to what you actually do as a lawyer (clinics aside), so unless you go to a big firm that will train you, you have little value. In b-school they prep you to actually do what a first year analyst or consultant or entrepreneur does, so you leave with actual skills.

5. There are no bar exams, state bar commissions/associations, and MRPC that tie your hands from performing certain lucrative and legal things (like selling a share of your business to a non-practitioner).

6. While you can go to b-school and get a shitty job; b-schools don't have the bizarre bi-modal salary distribution that law does where it's biglaw or bust.

7. With an MBA/MS, you can start in a shitty job out of b-school and work your way up lateraling or leaving to found your own company or switching industries. In law, it's almost impossible to crack into biglaw unless you started there or had fed honors. Law has far fewer roads that lead to lucrative salaries compared to the business world.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:53 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
jetsetter12 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I would fo sho forgo law school if i could redo this. probably gmat it up and go to b school. party hard, study little, make mad money (if you go to a good school) and chillllllllllllllllllllllllll. Not that this couldn't describe law school (except for the study little part), but i think that makes it all better looking back on how I've spent the last three years. GTFO if you can 0L's looking through this forum...



yikes


Here are some of the reasons b-school is superior to law school

1. If you go to the top law schools (MVPBDCNG), you still have a long-shot chance of getting a job that will pay off your loans, this isn't the case in top b-schools.

2. B-school is 18 months to two years. That's a lower cost of tuition and a lower opportunity cost in lost income.

3. Law school prepares you for one thing; passing law school exams and papers. It also marks your resume that you can only do legal things. B-school at least leaves you capable of entering a multitude of industries without people second-guessing your intentions.

4. In law school, especially top law schools, they pretend they are teaching the law and how to think like a lawyer. This has very very little connection to what you actually do as a lawyer (clinics aside), so unless you go to a big firm that will train you, you have little value. In b-school they prep you to actually do what a first year analyst or consultant or entrepreneur does, so you leave with actual skills.

5. There are no bar exams, state bar commissions/associations, and MRPC that tie your hands from performing certain lucrative and legal things (like selling a share of your business to a non-practitioner).

6. While you can go to b-school and get a shitty job; b-schools don't have the bizarre bi-modal salary distribution that law does where it's biglaw or bust.

7. With an MBA/MS, you can start in a shitty job out of b-school and work your way up lateraling or leaving to found your own company or switching industries. In law, it's almost impossible to crack into biglaw unless you started there or had fed honors. Law has far fewer roads that lead to lucrative salaries compared to the business world.


Pretty accurate from a top school financial perspective. Hence why people not actually wanting to be a lawyer should do the obvious thing: not go to law school.

If you want to go and know you want to be a lawyer based off experience, then know exactly what you want, how you will do it, and try to limit debt as much as possible. It's really that simple.
Last edited by RedBirds2011 on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:58 pm

I'll graduate magna from a T6. Have a CoA clerkship, with a biglaw job to follow. Have north of $150k in debt.

If I could do things over again? I didn't really have the undergrad background to do anything lucrative: I did even worse than a typical liberal arts degree, I got the dreaded fine arts degree along with a teaching certificate. (Alas, I fucking hate children.)

So, would I do things over again, even knowing the eventual (optimal) outcome? I don't know. If I could turn the clock all the way back to 17-year-old-me, I would certainly obliterate the entire Undergrad->Law School cycle, and do something useful with myself in Undergrad. Stuck with my undergrad, I think I'd keep the Law School part of things, too. But begrudingly. I can't wait until I have the loans down to something manageable so that I can re-evaluate my life. 5 more years.

flcath
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:03 am

jetsetter12 wrote:
flcath wrote:I'm a 2L, but I meet the other criteria. Am I not invited ITT?



Do tell your story...glad to hear it.

Not much to tell.

I totally shit on law school--and it deserves it--for the fact that so many people end up life-fucked (e.g., unemployed or underemployed) after becoming members of this "profession." If you *do* end up getting a job, it's obviously not nearly as bad, but this is still, ultimately, a place for those who either (1) have failed at doing what they really want to do (think non-trads and people like me), or (2) have no real skills (think of every person you've ever met who has a "passion for the law" . . . they're all poli sci shitheads, right?).

If you have skills, and real potential, don't come to law school. Yes, you can get into law school RIGHT NOW (everyone can), whereas you might have to wait a few years--working in a position that's beneath you, in a post-bacc program to get your grades up for med school, or making peanuts for the first few years you start up your business--to do other stuff, but the trade-off is that you'll be doing something real, adding value to the world, and maybe even won't be replaceable at the drop of a hat.

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bk1
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby bk1 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:04 am

RedBirds2011 wrote:top school financial perspective.

Caveat: a lot of T14 kids lack good enough work experience to nab a top b school.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'll graduate magna from a T6. Have a CoA clerkship, with a biglaw job to follow. Have north of $150k in debt.

If I could do things over again? I didn't really have the undergrad background to do anything lucrative: I did even worse than a typical liberal arts degree, I got the dreaded fine arts degree along with a teaching certificate. (Alas, I fucking hate children.)

So, would I do things over again, even knowing the eventual (optimal) outcome? I don't know. If I could turn the clock all the way back to 17-year-old-me, I would certainly obliterate the entire Undergrad->Law School cycle, and do something useful with myself in Undergrad. Stuck with my undergrad, I think I'd keep the Law School part of things, too. But begrudingly. I can't wait until I have the loans down to something manageable so that I can re-evaluate my life. 5 more years.


So, you basically have achieved what would be considered perfection for a law student (T6 magna coa biglaw) and still are on the fence for the next five years before you can be sure it was the right choice? And only about 500/45,000 law school grads will have a launchpad as good as yours!

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:12 am

flcath wrote:Not much to tell.

I totally shit on law school--and it deserves it--for the fact that so many people end up life-fucked (e.g., unemployed or underemployed) after becoming members of this "profession." If you *do* end up getting a job, it's obviously not nearly as bad, but this is still, ultimately, a place for those who either (1) have failed at doing what they really want to do (think non-trads and people like me), or (2) have no real skills (think of every person you've ever met who has a "passion for the law" . . . they're all poli sci shitheads, right?).

If you have skills, and real potential, don't come to law school. Yes, you can get into law school RIGHT NOW (everyone can), whereas you might have to wait a few years--working in a position that's beneath you, in a post-bacc program to get your grades up for med school, or making peanuts for the first few years you start up your business--to do other stuff, but the trade-off is that you'll be doing something real, adding value to the world, and maybe even won't be replaceable at the drop of a hat.



I wish more people paid attention to you...I wish I paid more attention to people like you as a 0L.

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NinerFan
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:46 am

I'm a 2L at a T-14 doing a biglaw SA in a month. Won't graduate with much debt, at least, not much debt to the DOE.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would not go to law school or I would have retaken the LSAT for more scholarship money. If I wasn't in law school, I'd probably be working for 30-50k a year like many of my undergrad friends in an entry level position or a low-level consulting position, etc.

The primary problem with law for me is the insecurity of the job. My non-law friends can rest easy knowing that unless their company goes under, they're probably not going to lose their jobs as long as they work hard and do a good job. In biglaw, the idea that because some partner made 800k this year instead of 900k and so the firm is going to fire 10% of its staff is both sad and terrifying. My friends don't necessarily love their jobs, but most of them don't hate it.

The only clear winners I've seen so far are those in legal academia.

jetsetter12
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby jetsetter12 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:54 am

NinerFan wrote:I'm a 2L at a T-14 doing a biglaw SA in a month. Won't graduate with much debt, at least, not much debt to the DOE.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would not go to law school or I would have retaken the LSAT for more scholarship money. If I wasn't in law school, I'd probably be working for 30-50k a year like many of my undergrad friends in an entry level position or a low-level consulting position, etc.

The primary problem with law for me is the insecurity of the job. My non-law friends can rest easy knowing that unless their company goes under, they're probably not going to lose their jobs as long as they work hard and do a good job. In biglaw, the idea that because some partner made 800k this year instead of 900k and so the firm is going to fire 10% of its staff is both sad and terrifying. My friends don't necessarily love their jobs, but most of them don't hate it.

The only clear winners I've seen so far are those in legal academia.



What are your feelings on the grind of being a junior associate? Do you think you can stomach the first 3-4 years of that? But hey dude, I'm glad you have that opportunity at least. MUUUCH better than the alternative. Just interested in knowing.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby shoeshine » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:16 am

To all the retarded people who think that there is stability in a financial job....you are wrong. Dead wrong. In fact it is less stable than almost every other field including law. Maybe it wasn't always that way but ITE things suck.

I worked for a bank in the "bulge bracket" and things were awesome when we started. I mean sure the hours were long and the bases weren't high but the bonuses were insane. We drudged along and things were fine until early 2008. Starting with the Bear Stearns failure/merger things have not been the same in finance. The bonuses are half what they were prior to the financial crisis (depending on your department). The work is just as long (55 to 70 hours per week) but there is no light at the end of the tunnel because everyone is just fighting to keep their jobs. Frank-Dodd (despite all it impotency) eliminated entire departments at investment banks. The job market sucks. Analysts and traders that used to be hounded by head hunters now cant get interviews.

Things are tight. But the worst part is that no matter what you do in finance you are only as good as your last quarters numbers or your last project. It is very, "What have you done for me lately?" Your job is never secure. I watched some of my best friends and co-workers with years of experience get fired over missing one quota or goal. But I am pretty sure this is how it always was. The difference is that there used to be a huge upside because of bonuses.

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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:54 am

Really, we're all idiots for not going to med school. It's the one major field that has the whole monopoly thing figured out pretty well. I was talking to a med student friend about how law students at my T10 couldn't find jobs and he was almost apologetic about how he hadn't ever heard of a med student who couldn't find a job.

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tedalbany
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby tedalbany » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:00 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:Really, we're all idiots for not going to med school. It's the one major field that has the whole monopoly thing figured out pretty well.


The most important thing to remember is there is no 'dream field'. There are plenty of downsides to the medical field; increasing red tape, less patient interaction with more hoops to jump through, rising costs and declining pay, the fact you don't earn decent money until you're close to 40, and you pretty much give up any hope of having a life before then... Many of them wish they had gone to law school, at least there they'd have the chance of making good money while still in their 20s.

Just find something you like and are good at, that would you wouldn't go crazy doing for the rest of your life, and stop worrying about stupid shit that won't end up mattering in the long run like money or prestige.

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NinerFan
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby NinerFan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:15 am

tedalbany wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:Really, we're all idiots for not going to med school. It's the one major field that has the whole monopoly thing figured out pretty well.


The most important thing to remember is there is no 'dream field'. There are plenty of downsides to the medical field; increasing red tape, less patient interaction with more hoops to jump through, rising costs and declining pay, the fact you don't earn decent money until you're close to 40, and you pretty much give up any hope of having a life before then... Many of them wish they had gone to law school, at least there they'd have the chance of making good money while still in their 20s.

Just find something you like and are good at, that would you wouldn't go crazy doing for the rest of your life, and stop worrying about stupid shit that won't end up mattering in the long run like money or prestige.


It's a grind in the beginning during residency, but afterwards if you go private practice, the hours are pretty good and the pay is good enough. I'm also jealous that primary care is, for my med school friends, the worst case scenario. They're gunning for surgery and the more prestigious specialities, but worst case scenario, they go into primary care and open up a private practice down the road. With law, especially big law, it seems like it's just a pure grind, even if you make it to the top.

Other good fields? Pharmacy and Dentistry seem pretty decent too, if 4 days a week my dentist works is any indication.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Just out of morbid curiosity, are there any 3ls with jobs...

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:19 am

tedalbany wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:Really, we're all idiots for not going to med school. It's the one major field that has the whole monopoly thing figured out pretty well.


The most important thing to remember is there is no 'dream field'. There are plenty of downsides to the medical field; increasing red tape, less patient interaction with more hoops to jump through, rising costs and declining pay, the fact you don't earn decent money until you're close to 40, and you pretty much give up any hope of having a life before then... Many of them wish they had gone to law school, at least there they'd have the chance of making good money while still in their 20s.

Just find something you like and are good at, that would you wouldn't go crazy doing for the rest of your life, and stop worrying about stupid shit that won't end up mattering in the long run like money or prestige.


This. Most people don't realize that doctors out of med school have a little thing called residency to deal with. You know how much a doc makes right out of med school...around 40K with even more debt than a law student. And those residencies can last for YEARS before they finally start making the real money. So you probably should not do med either if all your interested in is money because you won't see it for a long time. Moral of the story, stop overanalyzing the shit out of everything. Find a job you are passionate about and just fucking do it. And try to limit debt while you're at it.

The biggest problem is people on this site and 0Ls often look at law school and other grad schools as if they are stocks in the stock market. You do need to be very careful of debt, but honestly if you are second guessing becoming a lawyer this much then you really don't want it. Therefore, just don't do it.




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