What are the job prospects at lower t-14 schools in the new. Forum

[Geon]

Bad economy. How are the last 4-5 t-14 schools placing students in the new bad economy. I know before pretty much everyone even from places like cornell or gulc would make 100k+ prior to the recession, but I want to know what the students at these schools like northwestern are really experiencing, are you finding it easy to place big job law jobs, or are many top 14 law schools in the lower half students having trouble finding work.

I ask this as a Canadian considering top 14 law schools, vs Canadian law schools with the financial aspect being the main factor in deciding?

[shoeshine]

Bad economy. How are the last 4-5 t-14 schools placing students in the new bad economy. I know before pretty much everyone even from places like cornell or gulc would make 100k+ prior to the recession, but I want to know what the students at these schools like northwestern are really experiencing, are you finding it easy to place big job law jobs, or are many top 14 law schools in the lower half students having trouble finding work.

I ask this as a Canadian considering top 14 law schools, vs Canadian law schools with the financial aspect being the main factor in deciding?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

[Geon]

Bad economy. How are the last 4-5 t-14 schools placing students in the new bad economy. I know before pretty much everyone even from places like cornell or gulc would make 100k+ prior to the recession, but I want to know what the students at these schools like northwestern are really experiencing, are you finding it easy to place big job law jobs, or are many top 14 law schools in the lower half students having trouble finding work.

I ask this as a Canadian considering top 14 law schools, vs Canadian law schools with the financial aspect being the main factor in deciding?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Thanks, not trying to put your thing down. But People say they massage numbers, and they have been slow to produce numbers of 2011 grads. So I want to know how people who really went there feel or think. Also these numbers don't show clerkships. One thing I wonder is how many of the people going into public interest or other non big firms want to be there vs those who end up being there by no choice. Take northwestern. Ok 52% get big law, 10% probably clerk and 5% probably choose PI. So what of the other ~33% of student

[PDaddy]

Bad economy. How are the last 4-5 t-14 schools placing students in the new bad economy. I know before pretty much everyone even from places like cornell or gulc would make 100k+ prior to the recession, but I want to know what the students at these schools like northwestern are really experiencing, are you finding it easy to place big job law jobs, or are many top 14 law schools in the lower half students having trouble finding work.

I ask this as a Canadian considering top 14 law schools, vs Canadian law schools with the financial aspect being the main factor in deciding?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Thanks, not trying to put your thing down. But People say they massage numbers, and they have been slow to produce numbers of 2011 grads. So I want to know how people who really went there feel or think. Also these numbers don't show clerkships. One thing I wonder is how many of the people going into public interest or other non big firms want to be there vs those who end up being there by no choice. Take northwestern. Ok 52% get big law, 10% probably clerk and 5% probably choose PI. So what of the other ~33% of student

By "clerkships" I assume you are referring only to those that are federal since they are the most coveted. The rest isn't exactly rocket science.

The majority of the leftover grads have likely secured positions in academia, are in small to mid-level firms, are doing county and state clerkships, working for D.A.'s, have non-PI government jobs, or are in alternate business careers. Indeed, some NULaw grads are promoted by their old employers or choose entreprenuership.

I would suspect that a small number (6-10% in the bad economy, 2-5% in a good one) have hung up shingles, are unemployed for the short-term or have continued their education (M.A./M.S., Ph.D or LL.M). If 67% of the graduates secure what many believe to be the most coveted jobs, you can probably glean with confidence that NU grads are doing comparatively well.

[09042014]

From what I can tell at NW, if you are JD student (JD/MBA often do other stuff), and non-PI you've got 75%+ of getting big law. Maybe not out of OCI(you gotta hustle with mass mailing), maybe not in the market you want, or the type of firm you want. If you cast a big net outside of OCI, take OCI seriously, can hold a normal conversation, and don't have absolute shit grades, you'll do better.

OCI is touch and go. A lot of people (maybe most) are getting 3 or less call backs, and maybe only one offer.

I think the big difference between OCI for C/O 2013 and the OCIs in the previous two years was that mass mailing actually seemed be somewhat fruitful this year.

A lot of people who strike out totally usually either didn't take the job hunt super seriously, or had were picky about where they were mailing. People who didn't really come to school for big law, but do OCI because that's what you are supposed to do, don't do so great. Probably because their heart isn't in it.

That said, that's still a lot of risk. And it's random. It's not just the bottom of the class who strikes out.

25% shot that you'll wind up with 250K of debt and no job. DAMN.

[CanadianWolf]

Among #10 Michigan, #11 Duke, #12 Northwestern, #13 Georgetown & #14 Cornell, Northwestern & Cornell have outstanding biglaw placement.

OP: However, you need to be more specific about which Canadian & US law schools you are concerned. Obviously, for example, the University of Toronto trumps Michigan, Duke & Georgetown regarding placement & is much less costly than all T-14 US law schools when comparing tuition costs.

[keg411]

From what I can tell at NW, if you are JD student (JD/MBA often do other stuff), and non-PI you've got 75%+ of getting big law. Maybe not out of OCI(you gotta hustle with mass mailing), maybe not in the market you want, or the type of firm you want. If you cast a big net outside of OCI, take OCI seriously, can hold a normal conversation, and don't have absolute shit grades, you'll do better.

OCI is touch and go. A lot of people (maybe most) are getting 3 or less call backs, and maybe only one offer.

I think the big difference between OCI for C/O 2013 and the OCIs in the previous two years was that mass mailing actually seemed be somewhat fruitful this year.

A lot of people who strike out totally usually either didn't take the job hunt super seriously, or had were picky about where they were mailing. People who didn't really come to school for big law, but do OCI because that's what you are supposed to do, don't do so great. Probably because their heart isn't in it.

That said, that's still a lot of risk. And it's random. It's not just the bottom of the class who strikes out.

25% shot that you'll wind up with 250K of debt and no job. DAMN.

This post is spot on for c/o 2013.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, the 25% that don't land biglaw through mass mail/OCI are unemployed. In fact, there's absolutely no other job any grad at a T14 can get besides biglaw.

Wtf?

[sophie316]

Remember that international students can be in especially tricky situations if biglaw doesnt work out. Government is out and a lot of PI work will not even consider people who do not already have work authorisation. Also you'll need a US citizen to guarantee your (private) loans or have to pay out of pocket. (although it may be easier for Canadians to get loans/visas than the rest of us non americans but still issues worth considering)

[johansantana21]

I don't know if I'll go as high as 75% but DF knows better than I do.

I've heard this year's OCI was amazing but I have a feeling it will be worse in the following years.

[top30man]

I don't know if I'll go as high as 75% but DF knows better than I do.

I've heard this year's OCI was amazing but I have a feeling it will be worse in the following years.

Just curious, why do you think that?

[johansantana21]

I don't know if I'll go as high as 75% but DF knows better than I do.

I've heard this year's OCI was amazing but I have a feeling it will be worse in the following years.

Just curious, why do you think that?

Just anecdotes. Nothing conclusive.

[Geon]

Bad economy. How are the last 4-5 t-14 schools placing students in the new bad economy. I know before pretty much everyone even from places like cornell or gulc would make 100k+ prior to the recession, but I want to know what the students at these schools like northwestern are really experiencing, are you finding it easy to place big job law jobs, or are many top 14 law schools in the lower half students having trouble finding work.

I ask this as a Canadian considering top 14 law schools, vs Canadian law schools with the financial aspect being the main factor in deciding?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Thanks, not trying to put your thing down. But People say they massage numbers, and they have been slow to produce numbers of 2011 grads. So I want to know how people who really went there feel or think. Also these numbers don't show clerkships. One thing I wonder is how many of the people going into public interest or other non big firms want to be there vs those who end up being there by no choice. Take northwestern. Ok 52% get big law, 10% probably clerk and 5% probably choose PI. So what of the other ~33% of student

By "clerkships" I assume you are referring only to those that are federal since they are the most coveted. The rest isn't exactly rocket science.

The majority of the leftover grads have likely secured positions in academia, are in small to mid-level firms, are doing county and state clerkships, working for D.A.'s, have non-PI government jobs, or are in alternate business careers. Indeed, some NULaw grads are promoted by their old employers or choose entreprenuership.

I would suspect that a small number (6-10% in the bad economy, 2-5% in a good one) have hung up shingles, are unemployed for the short-term or have continued their education (M.A./M.S., Ph.D or LL.M). If 67% of the graduates secure what many believe to be the most coveted jobs, you can probably glean with confidence that NU grads are doing comparatively well.

What is NU an abbreviation of?

[bk1]

What is NU an abbreviation of?

Northwestern University

[Geon]

Bad economy. How are the last 4-5 t-14 schools placing students in the new bad economy. I know before pretty much everyone even from places like cornell or gulc would make 100k+ prior to the recession, but I want to know what the students at these schools like northwestern are really experiencing, are you finding it easy to place big job law jobs, or are many top 14 law schools in the lower half students having trouble finding work.

I ask this as a Canadian considering top 14 law schools, vs Canadian law schools with the financial aspect being the main factor in deciding?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Thanks, not trying to put your thing down. But People say they massage numbers, and they have been slow to produce numbers of 2011 grads. So I want to know how people who really went there feel or think. Also these numbers don't show clerkships. One thing I wonder is how many of the people going into public interest or other non big firms want to be there vs those who end up being there by no choice. Take northwestern. Ok 52% get big law, 10% probably clerk and 5% probably choose PI. So what of the other ~33% of student

By "clerkships" I assume you are referring only to those that are federal since they are the most coveted. The rest isn't exactly rocket science.

The majority of the leftover grads have likely secured positions in academia, are in small to mid-level firms, are doing county and state clerkships, working for D.A.'s, have non-PI government jobs, or are in alternate business careers. Indeed, some NULaw grads are promoted by their old employers or choose entreprenuership.

I would suspect that a small number (6-10% in the bad economy, 2-5% in a good one) have hung up shingles, are unemployed for the short-term or have continued their education (M.A./M.S., Ph.D or LL.M). If 67% of the graduates secure what many believe to be the most coveted jobs, you can probably glean with confidence that NU grads are doing comparatively well.

Forgive my foolish question but what is the big difference between federal and state clerkships. I never fully understood the lure of clerkship in relation to big law. Yes I understand you get to work with a judge, but your pay is like 1/3rd less and it becomes less in proportion as big law salaries go up. Can a NWL or GULC make decent money by setting up their own shingles in those expensive cities? Like if you go to Penn or Virginia and by some unlucky stroke of the draw you end up in a situation where you find your self in solo practice because you ca't get work elsewhere, then I'm assuming your going to have to charge a hefty per hour fee to make up for you expensive tuition. I mean Canada is way cheaper and top law salaries are half of America. A partner at a normal size Canadian law firm can make $500 as standard. A solo 250-400 an hour, and at the highest paying downtown firm 720 an hour for a partner. Does this mean a U of V or Penn grad is charging like 500-800 an hour starting in solo practice?

[bk1]

Forgive my foolish question but what is the big difference between federal and state clerkships. I never fully understood the lure of clerkship in relation to big law. Yes I understand you get to work with a judge, but your pay is like 1/3rd less and it becomes less in proportion as big law salaries go up.

A3 clerkships are considered prestigious. State clerkships not as much. You generally get a 50k bonus for clerking at a biglaw firm. Clerking also opens up other opportunities (e.g. academia). Clerking also provides valuable experience that you really can't get elsewhere. I've been told by practicing attorneys that it's much more valuable to clerk because you gain insight and practical experience (since you're basically drafting opinions) that you don't get as a young associate in biglaw (where you're likely doing less writing and more busywork since you're at the bottom of the pyramid). There are also certain firms that basically require clerking (e.g. Keker, MTO, etc).

[sunynp]

Re clerking: Some firms only hire clerks. You get training as a clerk you wont get at a law firm. You make connections with judges and attorneys. It is difficult and competitive to get clerkships so it is a plus on the prestige side of your resume. Many firms pay a clerkship bonus because you will know more than a regular associate.

Federal is harder to get.

No one is charging $500 an hour out of law school. They are screwed and probably on IBR repayment for 25 years -if they can find work. If you don't get biglaw you can't service the debt without some kind of institutional (or family) support. LRAP and IBR can help with loan repayment.

I think you need to do a lot more research.

[Geon]

Among #10 Michigan, #11 Duke, #12 Northwestern, #13 Georgetown & #14 Cornell, Northwestern & Cornell have outstanding biglaw placement.

OP: However, you need to be more specific about which Canadian & US law schools you are concerned. Obviously, for example, the University of Toronto trumps Michigan, Duke & Georgetown regarding placement & is much less costly than all T-14 US law schools when comparing tuition costs.

Hiy Canadian,

I have heard cornell got very bad placement recently, I was reading the article by cornell students, but historically and stats based you are correct. That is the info I saw too, but the article written by several cornell grads pointed out that Cornell only placed something like 86 grads in big law, which was apparently half of normal, and anyone willing to still come to Cornell was more or less bonkers.

I'm not particularly worried about Canadian law schools. I don't want to derail the thread so I won't elaborate this point.

U of T is 25k a year now. I'm sure it will rise more. IMO U of T doesn't trump any big law school because there is basically 0 or lets say a 1% chance of landing a job at a major firm paying 160k starting. The top grads from U of T are earning the same as grads from tier 2 schools. I don't even get how/why Canadians think U of T = tier 1 US never mind t 14.

I'd just take University of Florida to prove my point. You can get U of F with a 3.4 gpa, and a high 150. In state tuition is 15k. U of T in "state" tuition is 10k more a year. You need an A- average = 3.7+ and a 165, or even be generous and say 160 with range. Now what is the best paying job one could conceivable get for pay 10k extra a year, not to mention the high rents of downtown toronto and campus? 100k, and its pretty much a single firm paying that. But its more like 90k-80k for the top 10%. UF has a MEDIAN of 92k for private sector based off. Top 75% 115k.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/uf-college-of-law.html

Now assuming I will be paying UFs out of state residency cost of 33 = full sticker. Even then its a close one. Pay 8k a year more (probably less when you count the lower cost of living in florida) to get on median a higher salary from a tier 2 school which is #1 in a much larger state, vs go to a top Canadian school thats slightly less expensive but who doesn't have the top earning opportunities that UF has. I will conceed before hand that UfT grads probably as a hole place more in their choice than UF grads but even lawyers who start at 80 or 70k will experience much larger salary increases than their canadian counter parts. And I have first hand knowledge of this as my cousin works at a seven sister firm.

U of T is a good school, don't get me wrong, its the best in Canada, =100k and if the middle of private practice in tier 2 america median = 92k in private sector, you can see why for a financial perspective US is just a better choice.

When U of T law starts publishing salary stats, then I'll take it seriously, but they won't like most law schools with medicore prospects they try to hide these details from prospective students. Even schools like Osgoode and Windsor who use to publish salary surveys have since stopped. Not to mention the whole articling crisis in Ontario where 12% of law grads not only cannot find work but are in jeopardy of not become lawyers because they cannot find articling positions. At least in the US if you cannot find work when you graduate that won't bar you from becoming a lawyer. And when 12% of lawyers cannot even find jobs in a country that has no tier as far as law schools go, one has to question what are the true salary stats of its grads from U of T who refuses to publish salary reports.

[Geon]

From what I can tell at NW, if you are JD student (JD/MBA often do other stuff), and non-PI you've got 75%+ of getting big law. Maybe not out of OCI(you gotta hustle with mass mailing), maybe not in the market you want, or the type of firm you want. If you cast a big net outside of OCI, take OCI seriously, can hold a normal conversation, and don't have absolute shit grades, you'll do better.

OCI is touch and go. A lot of people (maybe most) are getting 3 or less call backs, and maybe only one offer.

I think the big difference between OCI for C/O 2013 and the OCIs in the previous two years was that mass mailing actually seemed be somewhat fruitful this year.

A lot of people who strike out totally usually either didn't take the job hunt super seriously, or had were picky about where they were mailing. People who didn't really come to school for big law, but do OCI because that's what you are supposed to do, don't do so great. Probably because their heart isn't in it.

That said, that's still a lot of risk. And it's random. It's not just the bottom of the class who strikes out.

25% shot that you'll wind up with 250K of debt and no job. DAMN.

I know, its so dicey, take a gamble that can pay off and be set for life, or you might punch yourself in the face for life if you can't find a good job. I know most likely I can gain admission to the lower t-14 schools, upper t-14 ones are questionable because of gpa, but I been outta school for a while and have REALLY good work experience and volunteering, and I do have a good reason for my not low but moderate grades. Its more of a twist for Canadians. The good side is you can discharge most of the loan through bankruptcy because it'd need to be private. The bad side is you're still ruined with a bankruptcy a hard to convert degree, no money, no job and still some moderate student debt.

[Geon]

Forgive my foolish question but what is the big difference between federal and state clerkships. I never fully understood the lure of clerkship in relation to big law. Yes I understand you get to work with a judge, but your pay is like 1/3rd less and it becomes less in proportion as big law salaries go up.

A3 clerkships are considered prestigious. State clerkships not as much. You generally get a 50k bonus for clerking at a biglaw firm. Clerking also opens up other opportunities (e.g. academia). Clerking also provides valuable experience that you really can't get elsewhere. I've been told by practicing attorneys that it's much more valuable to clerk because you gain insight and practical experience (since you're basically drafting opinions) that you don't get as a young associate in biglaw (where you're likely doing less writing and more busywork since you're at the bottom of the pyramid). There are also certain firms that basically require clerking (e.g. Keker, MTO, etc).

So if one is clerking how do they get a 50k bonus at a big law firm? You mean after they stop clerking and join big law?
Then what would be the difference salary wise from someone who joined after clerking than someone who just went straight to big law, since the straight to big law guy would get a an annual increase, no?

What is an A3 clerkship - I'm not familar with clerking remember. Why is state clerking considered less?

[Geon]

Remember that international students can be in especially tricky situations if biglaw doesnt work out. Government is out and a lot of PI work will not even consider people who do not already have work authorisation. Also you'll need a US citizen to guarantee your (private) loans or have to pay out of pocket. (although it may be easier for Canadians to get loans/visas than the rest of us non americans but still issues worth considering)

Yeah most government jobs are pretty much out, not all, but the overwhelming majority, there are a few loop holes, and there is an unclearity in the law so it is still possible to get hired if the HR person is incompetent.

Yeah Canadians can borrow up to 80-100k in private loans plus get about 12k annually from federal loans = 130k
I could probably pull down 10k in scholarships - did so in undergrad- annually from private Canadian companies.
Pretty much giving me a budget of 160k total. Any shortfall I'd have to defer and try to work or from university provided scholarship/grant/loan(in the case of the few who provide them).

Most likely I'd look to find a US cosigner, maybe pay them a few grand. If their job situation is truly as bad as they claim, it shouldn't be to hard to find someone willing to co-sign a piece of paper for 4 or 5 grand.

[rayiner]

Since you use Northwestern as an example: the school publishes quite detailed salary statistics: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

For C/O 2011, which had 287 graduates:

126 (44%) reported a salary of $160k+
45 (16%) reported a salary of $100k-$160k.

Of the rest (note that this group is disjoint from the previous group since none of these jobs pay $100k+):
23 (8%) got a federal clerkship (these folks could have gotten big law)
13 (5%) got government or public interest (these people mostly could have gotten big law)

So I think Desert Fox's 75% figure is pretty on-point. Note the data is from 2011, at the depth of the recession. C/O 2012 and C/O 2013 have been substantially better nation-wide, but I don't think Northwestern improved very much, because it got hit a lot less hard in 2011 than many of the other lower-T14.

As for the comment about what the rest do--it really is highly bi-modal. I'm in the 3L class, and people who didn't get big law or a clerkship are having trouble.

In the 2011 data, 14% of the class did not have a permanent, full-time position after 9 months. Another 7% of the class ended up taking a small-firm job (< 50 attorneys). While some small firms pay decent money, I think it's safe to say that most people in this category are not. The salary reporting statistics tell the story. 64% of the class ended up at firms. For the 89% of them that ended up at firms > 50 attorneys, the salary reporting rate was 98%. For the other 11%, it was 50%. People making low salaries are dramatically less likely to report, and that's very obvious here.

So once you add up the people who got big law, a clerkship, or a public interest/government job, along with the people who don't have permanent, full-time work, and the people working at small firms for (probably) low pay, you've accounted for nearly the whole class.

[rayiner]

Forgive my foolish question but what is the big difference between federal and state clerkships. I never fully understood the lure of clerkship in relation to big law. Yes I understand you get to work with a judge, but your pay is like 1/3rd less and it becomes less in proportion as big law salaries go up.

A3 clerkships are considered prestigious. State clerkships not as much. You generally get a 50k bonus for clerking at a biglaw firm. Clerking also opens up other opportunities (e.g. academia). Clerking also provides valuable experience that you really can't get elsewhere. I've been told by practicing attorneys that it's much more valuable to clerk because you gain insight and practical experience (since you're basically drafting opinions) that you don't get as a young associate in biglaw (where you're likely doing less writing and more busywork since you're at the bottom of the pyramid). There are also certain firms that basically require clerking (e.g. Keker, MTO, etc).

So if one is clerking how do they get a 50k bonus at a big law firm? You mean after they stop clerking and join big law?
Then what would be the difference salary wise from someone who joined after clerking than someone who just went straight to big law, since the straight to big law guy would get a an annual increase, no?

What is an A3 clerkship - I'm not familar with clerking remember. Why is state clerking considered less?

A clerkship is temporary, usually one or two years. After that most clerks go to a firm. Federal clerkships are very competitive, partly because you get tremendous experience and partly because Federal judges only hire the students from the top schools with the best grades.

State clerkships are considered less valuable because in general the state judiciary has less resources than the Federal, Federal law is "sexier" in the American system, and there are a lot more state clerkships and so firms don't consider them as a mark of the most qualified candidates. The big practical difference is that they're much less likely to lead to a big firm job after.

[bk1]

So if one is clerking how do they get a 50k bonus at a big law firm? You mean after they stop clerking and join big law?
Then what would be the difference salary wise from someone who joined after clerking than someone who just went straight to big law, since the straight to big law guy would get a an annual increase, no?

What is an A3 clerkship - I'm not familar with clerking remember. Why is state clerking considered less?

Clerks get a 50k signing bonus at biglaw firms and are heavily recruited by biglaw firms. I'm not sure whether they credit you a class year in terms of raises/bonuses (these things are lockstep so every associate who joined the firm in a given year gets the same bonus/raise... if you clerk you'll be starting 1-2 years after people who went straight in and I think they might treat you as if you started with those people but I'm not sure). The cost difference is real, probably around 50k+ (since clerks get paid 60k so 60+50 versus the 160k that first year associates get, but it will be either less/more than 50k difference depending on when you get the bonus and how that factors in to taxes). You also have other factors such as the person going straight into biglaw can pay down their loans faster and thus saves money because less interest is accrued. Clerks are definitely giving up money by clerking rather than going straight in (other than those who end up parlaying their original clerkship into a SCOTUS clerkship since SCOTUS clerks get 250k signing bonuses, but as is obvious SCOTUS clerks are rare). But the former clerks I've talked to have all been really glad they clerked. You'll end up getting paid a ton in biglaw so in the longrun the difference isn't that large.

I don't know why state clerkships aren't considered as prestigious (outside of state supreme), I'd hazard a guess that it's because state court clerks get less substantive work (like drafting opinions) but I really have no idea. My other guess is that they are just considered less prestigious because that is what the system has determined (prestige isn't always 100% logical).

[rayiner]

But its more like 90k-80k for the top 10%. UF has a MEDIAN of 92k for private sector based off. Top 75% 115k.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/uf-college-of-law.html

That's median should be taken with a grain of salt. --LinkRemoved--

Only the 250-500 and 500+ attorney firm categories have a median of > $80k, and that median is based on 20 salaries (out of 408 people in the class). The true median should fall in the "11-25 attorney" firm size range, since 99 of 184 students in the private sector are at a firm of 25 attorneys or smaller. The median for that category is $65k.