Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

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puppylaw
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby puppylaw » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:07 am

It's great to see so much data and information. Good work, Michigan. Having all this more commonly available could be one upside of having gone through the mess of the last few years.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:07 am

planeride wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
beachbum wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote:How does Paul Campos still have a job? I find it hilarious that he's out to single-handedly take out the scam law schools, but in the process never manages to fact check his own stuff or bother with accurate details. He's scammier than the scam law schools...driving up the blog views with his sensationalist bullshit.

EDIT: This is in reference to Dean Z's blog post about this by the way. I should probably provide some context.


I just don't like his delivery; he comes off as angry and sarcastic. Which is too bad. It seems to me we have enough of the overzealous whistle-blowers (scam blogs), and not enough of the reasoned authority figures questioning the law school system.


It could be that when he went to look for an academic job he tried to return to his alma mater (where he went for his three degrees) and wasn't hired. This would leave almost anyone with a sour taste in their mouth and he's out to get them. Of course, this is all speculative


What a ridiculous accusation to make with absolutely no evidence.

I don't care for Campos or his fan-boys but the shoot-the-messenger attitude of some is unseemly. The anger comes from the fact that thousands of law students are graduating with massive debt and almost no chance to pay it off. Not because Dean Z stole his winning Mega Millions ticket.


You are seriously a tool if that is your stance: "Don't shoot the messenger."

Paul Campos is the biggest hypocrite in this entire ordeal because he CHOSE A TEACHING JOB AT A SCHOOL THAT FITS THE BILL FOR EVERYTHING HE BITCHES ABOUT. It's not like Campos is teaching at Harvard... he is at CU-Boulder.

If he really hates the law school scam as much as he says he does, why does he keep teaching at a school that is committing the "scam" he so hates? He's not persuading current students to leave the school and pursue other interests, so why does he continue to perpetuate the problem he hates so much?

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Samara
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Samara » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:13 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.

Why are all the Michigan trolls so sanctimonious? Is it the Dean Z cult of personality? Is it the bleak Ann Arbor winters?

Why don't you try not being an asshole? I'm more worried for people who aren't concerned about job prospects after law school (you) than people who are (tlsp). Going into a lot of debt for law school can be scary and a good idea at the same time, hard as that might be for you to comprehend. (Especially when you're talking about a school that screwed over one of their classes with bad CSO advice. Or did all those Michigan students just have "a wrong attitude?")
Last edited by Samara on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:13 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:You are seriously a tool if that is your stance: "Don't shoot the messenger."

Paul Campos is the biggest hypocrite in this entire ordeal because he CHOSE A TEACHING JOB AT A SCHOOL THAT FITS THE BILL FOR EVERYTHING HE BITCHES ABOUT. It's not like Campos is teaching at Harvard... he is at CU-Boulder.

If he really hates the law school scam as much as he says he does, why does he keep teaching at a school that is committing the "scam" he so hates? He's not persuading current students to leave the school and pursue other interests, so why does he continue to perpetuate the problem he hates so much?


Amen! God all mighty up in heaven the savior has come.

All kidding aside, this is exactly my problem with Campos. He could do something about it but hasn't. Perhaps it's because he himself knows that his employment prospects are bleak if he chooses to leave and wants to make sure that book he's releasing sells enough copies to pay his bills.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:18 am

Samara wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.

Why are all the Michigan trolls so sanctimonious? Is it the Dean Z cult of personality? Is it the bleak Ann Arbor winters?

Why don't you try not being an asshole? I'm more worried for people who aren't concerned about job prospects after law school (you) than people who are (tlsp). Going into a lot of debt for law school can be scary and a good idea at the same time, hard as that might be for you to comprehend. (Especially when you're talking about a school that screwed over one of their classes with bad CSO advice. Or did all those Michigan students just have "a wrong attitude?")


Because this is TLS. An internet forum on which on any given day you can find trolls for Paul Campos 2012, advice on how to make the best of the social scene in law school, questions about lawcest and even advice on cunnilingus. Because apparently, people on TLS are incapable of thinking for themselves and it's much easier to join the masses with this "me scared too" attitude than it is to own the fact that you're on here because you are also going to be going to law school. Some people for free and some people are taking on a shitload of debt to do it. But as an ADULT going to a PROFESSIONAL school, sometimes it's best to just own your decisions whole-heartedly rather than spend your time on here bitching about the fact that you're worried about your future. As Scrabble said, if you're so worried don't go. The people that went to LS in 2007 probably weren't worried and look at what happened. What's to say in 3 years that things won't turn around? What's to say they won't get worse? If this is what you spend your days being worried about then it's as simple as wait it out. Three years is too long of a time to plague yourself with uncertainty and if I wasn't 100% sure that law school was what I wanted to do because I want to be a lawyer then I would find something else to do with my time.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby sunynp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:26 am

Paul Campos is the biggest hypocrite in this entire ordeal because he CHOSE A TEACHING JOB AT A SCHOOL THAT FITS THE BILL FOR EVERYTHING HE BITCHES ABOUT. It's not like Campos is teaching at Harvard... he is at CU-Boulder.

If he really hates the law school scam as much as he says he does, why does he keep teaching at a school that is committing the "scam" he so hates? He's not persuading current students to leave the school and pursue other interests, so why does he continue to perpetuate the problem he hates so much?


I think that Campos is valuable to letting people know about law school employment scam because they take a professor seriously. If you read his blog, you will see what he wrote to a student who was choosing between CU and MIchigan. I wouldn't say he isn't turning people away from attending law school. I don't know what he says to students at CU but I do think he talks about employment in his classes and at the school.

I don't see how one law professor and one little blog can cause such an intense response. The actions the law schools have taken been much much worse and over decades. He has written a blog for less than a year. I think Dean Z in her blog has a much bigger impact on 0Ls than Campos does with his.

Personally, I think that the Dean Z at Michigan is much worse than Campos for saying "a couple of people" are going to have trouble finding a job just after a large percentage of students (20%) had to take fellowships. Those fellowships pay a total of $4,000so students are working for pennies over the course of several months.. I think that it is much worse for her to make posts like that in response to the New York Times (who Campos worked with on the article) reporting on the law school employment and tuition scam.

Keeping on topic here, which I think is very important: telling everyone that Michigan is fine when the school had a huge drop in employment from the previous years is misleading. Just look at the real numbers Michigan posted. They are much worse than I had expected and I don't think I am the only one.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Old Gregg » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:28 am

I don't think anyone is questioning that things are better now, so waxing poetic about how 14 of your buddies are at Davis Polk this summer doesn't really contribute to the discussion. The problem is that Michigan failed under pressure. And given that the economy can go bad again really, really quickly, it's worthwhile to keep that in mind as both as prospective student as a 1L as you prepare for your 2L summer job search.

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Samara
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Samara » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:28 am

JoeMo wrote:Because this is TLS. An internet forum on which on any given day you can find trolls for Paul Campos 2012, advice on how to make the best of the social scene in law school, questions about lawcest and even advice on cunnilingus. Because apparently, people on TLS are incapable of thinking for themselves and it's much easier to join the masses with this "me scared too" attitude than it is to own the fact that you're on here because you are also going to be going to law school. Some people for free and some people are taking on a shitload of debt to do it. But as an ADULT going to a PROFESSIONAL school, sometimes it's best to just own your decisions whole-heartedly rather than spend your time on here bitching about the fact that you're worried about your future. As Scrabble said, if you're so worried don't go. The people that went to LS in 2007 probably weren't worried and look at what happened. What's to say in 3 years that things won't turn around? What's to say they won't get worse? If this is what you spend your days being worried about then it's as simple as wait it out. Three years is too long of a time to plague yourself with uncertainty and if I wasn't 100% sure that law school was what I wanted to do because I want to be a lawyer then I would find something else to do with my time.

1) Nope it's pretty much just you Michigan trolls who are sanctimonious. Say what you will about posters like TaipeiMort, but at least his posts aren't dripping with condescension.

2) You never do anything unless you're 100% sure about it? You're either arrogant or stupid. I'll let you choose which one.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:30 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.


I don't get how working on a crummy MTV show makes your advice any more important than anyone else's.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:34 am

Samara wrote:
JoeMo wrote:Because this is TLS. An internet forum on which on any given day you can find trolls for Paul Campos 2012, advice on how to make the best of the social scene in law school, questions about lawcest and even advice on cunnilingus. Because apparently, people on TLS are incapable of thinking for themselves and it's much easier to join the masses with this "me scared too" attitude than it is to own the fact that you're on here because you are also going to be going to law school. Some people for free and some people are taking on a shitload of debt to do it. But as an ADULT going to a PROFESSIONAL school, sometimes it's best to just own your decisions whole-heartedly rather than spend your time on here bitching about the fact that you're worried about your future. As Scrabble said, if you're so worried don't go. The people that went to LS in 2007 probably weren't worried and look at what happened. What's to say in 3 years that things won't turn around? What's to say they won't get worse? If this is what you spend your days being worried about then it's as simple as wait it out. Three years is too long of a time to plague yourself with uncertainty and if I wasn't 100% sure that law school was what I wanted to do because I want to be a lawyer then I would find something else to do with my time.

1) Nope it's pretty much just you Michigan trolls who are sanctimonious. Say what you will about posters like TaipeiMort, but at least his posts aren't dripping with condescension.

2) You never do anything unless you're 100% sure about it? You're either arrogant or stupid. I'll let you choose which one.


Your reading comprehension failed you. I said if I wasn't 100% sure about law school, I wouldn't do it. I didn't say I don't do anything that I'm not 100% sure about. Don't put words into my mouth.

And I didn't say anything about Taipei. Oh, and btw, you're far from being high and mighty yourself so I wouldn't necessarily go around calling other people condescending if I were you. You speak from a pedestal quite often as if your way is THE way. But after all, you're just another 0L. I fail to see where you're adding anything of value to the conversation. I'm not claiming to be either but it is quite enjoyable to see how socially inept certain people can be that things someone says on an internet forum can get them so riled up.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:37 am

Samara wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.

Why are all the Michigan trolls so sanctimonious? Is it the Dean Z cult of personality? Is it the bleak Ann Arbor winters?

Why don't you try not being an asshole? I'm more worried for people who aren't concerned about job prospects after law school (you) than people who are (tlsp). Going into a lot of debt for law school can be scary and a good idea at the same time, hard as that might be for you to comprehend. (Especially when you're talking about a school that screwed over one of their classes with bad CSO advice. Or did all those Michigan students just have "a wrong attitude?")


First, I didn't single any one person out, so I'm not sure why you did (see: tlsp). Second, why would you be more worried about people who aren't worried about job prospects than those that are? Hell, why are you worried about anyone else, for that matter?

I'm not worried about getting a job at the end of law school because:

1) I'm going for free with a stipend, so I'm actually going to earning money in law school, though much less than I currently earn.

2) I'm manage a department for a F100 company and I can come back to this company as an in-house counselor if I so choose

3) I'm confident in my abilities to do well enough in law school to secure gainful employment, and, even if I don't, I have enough money saved up to ensure that I'm not out on my ass if I'm looking for a job for a year post-grad.

Also, I'm not really sure what I said could be taken as asshole-ish. I simply said that you shouldn't go to law school if you aren't 100% committed... this means being of sound mind and not going into law school with a negative attitude. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Do you really think it will work out? Do you go into job interviews with a negative attitude and then still expect to get the job? The mind is a pretty powerful instrument, and if you are already negative about something, it is going to be very difficult to come out the other end with a positive experience.

As far as Michigan CSO giving bad advice... yeah, that sucks. But, I would like to think anyone with half a brain would be intelligent enough to think "Hmm... CSO is telling all 400 of us to apply only to Chicago... maybe I should apply to a few other places, just in case...". I mean, honestly, with a class size that large, if the sheep just did what they were told without any personal thought going into the process, they kinda got what they deserved. As a previous poster said, those that applied in other markets made out, those that only applied to Chicago did not. There is a reason for the saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

Again, why do you seek to place blame on others for stuff? Michigan CSO may have given bad advice, shit happens. But, how do you explain those that succeeded from that class? Was that because of the school or because of the students? You can't blame a bad result on one thing and then a good result on something totally different. If your school's CSO told you to jump off a bridge because it will enhance your employability, would you do it? Take responsibility for your own life and stop placing blame on others.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:40 am

Blindmelon wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.


I don't get how working on a crummy MTV show makes your advice any more important than anyone else's.


Huh? MTV? I think you may have me confused with someone else... I work for a financial services firm that has nothing to do with MTV.

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sunynp
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby sunynp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:54 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Samara wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.

Why are all the Michigan trolls so sanctimonious? Is it the Dean Z cult of personality? Is it the bleak Ann Arbor winters?

Why don't you try not being an asshole? I'm more worried for people who aren't concerned about job prospects after law school (you) than people who are (tlsp). Going into a lot of debt for law school can be scary and a good idea at the same time, hard as that might be for you to comprehend. (Especially when you're talking about a school that screwed over one of their classes with bad CSO advice. Or did all those Michigan students just have "a wrong attitude?")


First, I didn't single any one person out, so I'm not sure why you did (see: tlsp). Second, why would you be more worried about people who aren't worried about job prospects than those that are? Hell, why are you worried about anyone else, for that matter?

I'm not worried about getting a job at the end of law school because:

1) I'm going for free with a stipend, so I'm actually going to earning money in law school, though much less than I currently earn.

2) I'm manage a department for a F100 company and I can come back to this company as an in-house counselor if I so choose

3) I'm confident in my abilities to do well enough in law school to secure gainful employment, and, even if I don't, I have enough money saved up to ensure that I'm not out on my ass if I'm looking for a job for a year post-grad.

Also, I'm not really sure what I said could be taken as asshole-ish. I simply said that you shouldn't go to law school if you aren't 100% committed... this means being of sound mind and not going into law school with a negative attitude. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Do you really think it will work out? Do you go into job interviews with a negative attitude and then still expect to get the job? The mind is a pretty powerful instrument, and if you are already negative about something, it is going to be very difficult to come out the other end with a positive experience.

As far as Michigan CSO giving bad advice... yeah, that sucks. But, I would like to think anyone with half a brain would be intelligent enough to think "Hmm... CSO is telling all 400 of us to apply only to Chicago... maybe I should apply to a few other places, just in case...". I mean, honestly, with a class size that large, if the sheep just did what they were told without any personal thought going into the process, they kinda got what they deserved. As a previous poster said, those that applied in other markets made out, those that only applied to Chicago did not. There is a reason for the saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

Again, why do you seek to place blame on others for stuff? Michigan CSO may have given bad advice, shit happens. But, how do you explain those that succeeded from that class? Was that because of the school or because of the students? You can't blame a bad result on one thing and then a good result on something totally different. If your school's CSO told you to jump off a bridge because it will enhance your employability, would you do it? Take responsibility for your own life and stop placing blame on others.


Not sure if serious. People need to follow CSO advice. The job of CSO is to tell students where to apply to get jobs. CSO said that NYC was dead - would you waste a lot of bids there? CSO squarely gets the blame here. I'm sure you will understand the role of CSO better after you have actually been to law school.

Edit to add - I don't think the law school employment information is needed for someone like you. You have carefully done research and provided at least two outs for yourself if you don't secure employment after law school. I think that people like you will be fine with whatever outcome they have. But the vast majority of 0LS are not as educated or informed as you. Most 0Ls are just going on the outdated advice of law school advisors, parents, friends and family. These people will think it is great for an 0L to pay sticker at any T14. The 0LS who listen to their advice may turn out fine or they may not.

But you are not in the same position with regards to information or decision making as they are. I think most 0Ls are still going to school expecting law to be a huge pay day for them.
Last edited by sunynp on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ColtsFan88
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ColtsFan88 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:07 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.

I chose Michigan over Stanford because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads... most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.


I don't get how working on a crummy MTV show makes your advice any more important than anyone else's.


Huh? MTV? I think you may have me confused with someone else... I work for a financial services firm that has nothing to do with MTV.


WOOOOOOOOOOSH

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IAFG
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:11 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Maybe it is just because I am older and have worked in the real world, or maybe it is just because I believe people need to take full responsibility for their lives, rather than passing off blame to others (i.e. "I don't have a job, so it MUST be the school's fault, not mine),but why do people here continue to bitch about problems they don't need to have?


You don't go to a T14 because you think your winning smile and charming personality is going to get you a job (or at least, you shouldn't). You go to a prestigious law school if you realize how snobby the legal profession is. If one of the T14 is doing a bad job placing students with these snobby employers relative to peer schools, it makes perfect sense to look at the school and its OCS for an explanation.

I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.

Even in the best of times, I don't imagine any school reported a 100% employment rate... even if they did, what happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. If a prospective student is too dumb to do their own research before dropping $150k to attend a shit institution (or even a great school), they, not anyone else, is responsible for the outcome.


Fine, but again, it's not a question of taking responsibility at the school selection stage, it's a question of making the right choice among peer schools. That's going to involve analyzing relative placement and trying to get a handle on why Michigan's numbers seem so much worse than other schools people with T14 numbers get into.

Having said all that, if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.


...you work in financial services? Really? Doesn't it make sense for people to agonize over the data a little bit before sinking all that time and money in? If you're considering going, the published numbers at every school should be part of that analysis, and at Michigan, it's not unreasonable for those numbers to make you feel a little "faint of heart." That's all part of making an informed decision: full of second thoughts and uncertainty, instead of just assuming you're such a fucking special snowflake that you're gonna get a market-paying job.

I chose Michigan over Stanford


Oops


because I felt Michigan was a better fit for me and I'm confident enough in my abilities that the job numbers aren't really a concern for me, especially after having read a lot of the "Class of 2015" threads...

Do you know what a curve is?

most of the people that post in the threads seem to have no clue what the real world is about and are more concerned with the dating scene, parties, and the social scene than anything else. And, it appears a majority of students are also their own worst enemies: they appear to be entering law school with an already negative attitude. I can only imagine going into law school with a negative attitude is only going to hinder your ability to do well.

Oh. You must not.

Why does XYZ T14 school have a bad placement percentage? Maybe it is because the incoming students go into the school experience with the wrong attitude, and that attitude negatively affects their academic performance, which in turn affects their ability to speak well about their experience during interviews. Maybe not...


Wow, you really, really have no idea what a curve is.

Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.

If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:14 am

sunynp wrote:Not sure if serious. People need to follow CSO advice. The job of CSO is to tell students where to apply to get jobs. CSO said that NYC was dead - would you waste a lot of bids there? CSO squarely gets the blame here. I'm sure you will understand the role of CSO better after you have actually been to law school.


I am serious, though I will admit that I don't know intimately the inner-workings of a CSO office as I've yet to utilize their talents. However, I really hate when people blame others for their demise. To me, the math just doesn't add up... 400 graduates, all being told to apply to Chicago, just doesn't seem intelligent to me, and I'm not sure why so many people thought it did. And... define "waste a lot of bids there?"... I'm guessing that those that bid outside of Chicago found jobs, while those that bid only in Chicago did not... so, not sure they were really wasted.

How about this: Most top law schools don't specifically teach with the aim of getting a student to pass the bar, unlike some TTT and TTTTs do. Does that mean a Michigan/Chicago/Harvard/Stanford/insertT14here grad should blame the school for not adequately preparing them when they don't pass? No. They should blame themselves for not adequately preparing themselves.

All I am touting is personal responsbility... blaming others does absolutely nothing to help your situation, so rather than dwell on it, move on and make the situation better. I don't understand why this is such an outlandish stance.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby MTBike » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:16 am

Oh look who's back... its IAFG the raging super-bitch.


I've missed you and your "throw stuff and see what sticks" arguments, we should hang out more.
Last edited by MTBike on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:19 am

IAFG wrote:If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.


Ad Hom much?

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IAFG
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:21 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
sunynp wrote:Not sure if serious. People need to follow CSO advice. The job of CSO is to tell students where to apply to get jobs. CSO said that NYC was dead - would you waste a lot of bids there? CSO squarely gets the blame here. I'm sure you will understand the role of CSO better after you have actually been to law school.


I am serious, though I will admit that I don't know intimately the inner-workings of a CSO office as I've yet to utilize their talents. However, I really hate when people blame others for their demise. To me, the math just doesn't add up... 400 graduates, all being told to apply to Chicago, just doesn't seem intelligent to me, and I'm not sure why so many people thought it did. And... define "waste a lot of bids there?"... I'm guessing that those that bid outside of Chicago found jobs, while those that bid only in Chicago did not... so, not sure they were really wasted.

How about this: Most top law schools don't specifically teach with the aim of getting a student to pass the bar, unlike some TTT and TTTTs do. Does that mean a Michigan/Chicago/Harvard/Stanford/insertT14here grad should blame the school for not adequately preparing them when they don't pass? No. They should blame themselves for not adequately preparing themselves.

All I am touting is personal responsbility... blaming others does absolutely nothing to help your situation, so rather than dwell on it, move on and make the situation better. I don't understand why this is such an outlandish stance.

Personal responsibility really has no place in this discussion, unless your defense of Michigan is based on an assumption that Michigan students are less adept at taking personal responsibility for their employment status and finding a job outside of OCS and without OCI than all the schools who had much stronger placement. Which seems like a weird and unfounded insult to Michigan kids.

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IAFG
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:23 am

JoeMo wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.


Ad Hom much?

Alright there are some exceptions. For most people, law school is going to involve assuming some risk and the possibility of being much better off than when you started. Who can say their 100% sure that was the right choice?

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rayiner
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:24 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
sunynp wrote:Not sure if serious. People need to follow CSO advice. The job of CSO is to tell students where to apply to get jobs. CSO said that NYC was dead - would you waste a lot of bids there? CSO squarely gets the blame here. I'm sure you will understand the role of CSO better after you have actually been to law school.


I am serious, though I will admit that I don't know intimately the inner-workings of a CSO office as I've yet to utilize their talents. However, I really hate when people blame others for their demise. To me, the math just doesn't add up... 400 graduates, all being told to apply to Chicago, just doesn't seem intelligent to me, and I'm not sure why so many people thought it did. And... define "waste a lot of bids there?"... I'm guessing that those that bid outside of Chicago found jobs, while those that bid only in Chicago did not... so, not sure they were really wasted.

How about this: Most top law schools don't specifically teach with the aim of getting a student to pass the bar, unlike some TTT and TTTTs do. Does that mean a Michigan/Chicago/Harvard/Stanford/insertT14here grad should blame the school for not adequately preparing them when they don't pass? No. They should blame themselves for not adequately preparing themselves.

All I am touting is personal responsbility... blaming others does absolutely nothing to help your situation, so rather than dwell on it, move on and make the situation better. I don't understand why this is such an outlandish stance.


"Personal responsibility" makes no sense in this context. As far as I can tell, there are no Michigan C/O 2011 graduates in this thread blaming the CSO for their not having a job.

Law school is professional school. Career services is an important part of that. You pay a shit ton of money to the school to help you get a job. You pay for that service the CSO provides. It is entirely reasonable, as a prospective student, current student, or graduate, to question the quality of the service you will be, are, or did pay for.

And having a good CSO isn't unimportant. I'm a gunner TLS-er who approached OCI 2010 with a ton of data, callback statistics from other schools, etc. I still appreciated the advice from my CSO counselor, who told me my bid list was too conservative. I read our CSO's detailed "Market Trends" page where they collected statistics about the legal market which I probably could have found myself, but appreciated having laid in front of me.

The CSO is in a position to do certain things to help students get jobs that students cannot do themselves. They can hire legal market analysts to evaluate the hiring market, they can talk to firms about their hiring projections, they can find trends in aggregated data. You are paying for them to do these things, and you should expect them to.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby D-hops » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:24 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:I am serious, though I will admit that I don't know intimately the inner-workings of a CSO office as I've yet to utilize their talents. However, I really hate when people blame others for their demise. To me, the math just doesn't add up... 400 graduates, all being told to apply to Chicago, just doesn't seem intelligent to me, and I'm not sure why so many people thought it did. And... define "waste a lot of bids there?"... I'm guessing that those that bid outside of Chicago found jobs, while those that bid only in Chicago did not... so, not sure they were really wasted.


You are making some pretty big assumptions about everyone knowing that CSO was telling everyone to apply to Chicago. Also, CSO is supposed to have the knowledge about the market and develop relationships with firms so your students get hired even if the economy sucks. Michigan's CSO failed miserably, and it had some pretty serious impacts on Michigan's students.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:25 am

JoeMo wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.


Ad Hom much?


Improper use of "ad hominem" in this context. "You're a moron" is a conclusion, not a basis for an attack on an argument.

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skers
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby skers » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:26 am

IAFG wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
sunynp wrote:Not sure if serious. People need to follow CSO advice. The job of CSO is to tell students where to apply to get jobs. CSO said that NYC was dead - would you waste a lot of bids there? CSO squarely gets the blame here. I'm sure you will understand the role of CSO better after you have actually been to law school.


I am serious, though I will admit that I don't know intimately the inner-workings of a CSO office as I've yet to utilize their talents. However, I really hate when people blame others for their demise. To me, the math just doesn't add up... 400 graduates, all being told to apply to Chicago, just doesn't seem intelligent to me, and I'm not sure why so many people thought it did. And... define "waste a lot of bids there?"... I'm guessing that those that bid outside of Chicago found jobs, while those that bid only in Chicago did not... so, not sure they were really wasted.

How about this: Most top law schools don't specifically teach with the aim of getting a student to pass the bar, unlike some TTT and TTTTs do. Does that mean a Michigan/Chicago/Harvard/Stanford/insertT14here grad should blame the school for not adequately preparing them when they don't pass? No. They should blame themselves for not adequately preparing themselves.

All I am touting is personal responsbility... blaming others does absolutely nothing to help your situation, so rather than dwell on it, move on and make the situation better. I don't understand why this is such an outlandish stance.

Personal responsibility really has no place in this discussion, unless your defense of Michigan is based on an assumption that Michigan students are less adept at taking personal responsibility for their employment status and finding a job outside of OCS and without OCI than all the schools who had much stronger placement. Which seems like a weird and unfounded insult to Michigan kids.


I'm guessing there's a specific quality to a student body that made their choice based on "omgz it looks like Hogwarts!"

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:27 am

IAFG wrote:If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.


And that is the problem. Law school is difficult, stressful, and can suck at times. If you aren't 100% sure it is a good plan, you definitely should not go. Don't go unless you can give it your all. This seems like a completely reasonable train of thought.

I'm a Marine, and there is not a chance in hell you graduate Boot Camp unless you are giving 100%. People that join the Marines on a whim with no real good reason do not graduate. Law school, like the Marine Corps, is a life choice, and if you are not 100% committed it will show and the results will not be good. I think anyone that advocates choosing to "do" law school without being fully committed is a fucking tool.

Also, I know what a curve is... seriously? If you are going to attack my arguments, at least do so with intelligence. A curve may be very equalizing, but my point was that someone that has a positive attitude and wants to be in law school has an edge on someone that has a negative attitude and isn't really sure about law school. And, with a curve, every little edge helps. Again, this should be clear. The difference between an A and a B may be 2 questions... and the difference between getting those two questions right or wrong may be the difference between someone who puts in 100% and someone who puts in 75%.

I think we can all agree that, for the most part, the students at the T14 are all pretty intelligent and academically strong. There are always going to be people that will get A's regardless of the effort they put in and there will always be people who get Bs regardless of how much they study. But the vast majority of students will need to work efficiently to get the grades they want, and it is a lot easier to work efficiently and intelligently when you actually want to be in law school and are 100% committed to law school.

None of this should be groundbreaking information. It should be clearly evident. I'm not really sure why you disagree.




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