Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats Forum

[bk1]

Even a decade or so ago I think law schools were cheaper and interest rates for loans were significantly lower than they are now.

True. Heck just 6 years ago tuition at UC Hastings (in-state) was under $20,000/year.

[shoeshine]

Even a decade or so ago I think law schools were cheaper and interest rates for loans were significantly lower than they are now.

True. Heck just 6 years ago tuition at UC Hastings (in-state) was under $20,000/year.

Yeah, but loan rates were about the same. They were slightly lower from 02-05 but before that they were in the same range or higher. source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicalrates.phtml

[NinerFan]

Even a decade or so ago I think law schools were cheaper and interest rates for loans were significantly lower than they are now.

True. Heck just 6 years ago tuition at UC Hastings (in-state) was under $20,000/year.

Yeah, but loan rates were about the same. They were slightly lower from 02-05 but before that they were in the same range or higher. source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicalrates.phtml

But, they got interest back then from their savings accounts, no?

[shoeshine]

Even a decade or so ago I think law schools were cheaper and interest rates for loans were significantly lower than they are now.

True. Heck just 6 years ago tuition at UC Hastings (in-state) was under $20,000/year.

Yeah, but loan rates were about the same. They were slightly lower from 02-05 but before that they were in the same range or higher. source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/historicalrates.phtml

But, they got interest back then from their savings accounts, no?

LOL, very true. It has been so long I forgot banks gave interest.

[NoleinNY]

Everyone focuses on sheep farmer, but what captured my imagination was the polo coach and a professional poker player.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone focuses on sheep farmer, but what captured my imagination was the polo coach and a professional poker player.

They're both probably making more than a BigLaw attorney. If I was good at poker, why not give it a go?

[Bgibbs]

Everyone focuses on sheep farmer, but what captured my imagination was the polo coach and a professional poker player.

They're both probably making more than a BigLaw attorney. If I was good at poker, why not give it a go?

Because playing poker every once in a while is fun, but playing everyday as a career is a frustrating grind with variance that will make you want to kill yourself (unless you win a huge event and can travel the world playing tournaments, but good luck doing that...and the variance will still drive you insane). There's also only a very limited number of people making more than a Biglaw associate, and chances are you'll work just as many hours, if not more, to make that much (or more likely, much less) as a professional poker player. Though, if I graduated law school with a ridiculous amount of debt and no job prospects I guess I'd give it a try too.

P.S. I really, really miss Pokerstars. We need to regulate and legalize online poker in the US already.

[dabomb75]

Everyone focuses on sheep farmer, but what captured my imagination was the polo coach and a professional poker player.

They're both probably making more than a BigLaw attorney. If I was good at poker, why not give it a go?

Because playing poker every once in a while is fun, but playing everyday as a career is a frustrating grind with variance that will make you want to kill yourself (unless you win a huge event and can travel the world playing tournaments, but good luck doing that...and the variance will still drive you insane). There's also only a very limited number of people making more than a Biglaw associate, and chances are you'll work just as many hours, if not more, to make that much (or more likely, much less) as a professional poker player. Though, if I graduated law school with a ridiculous amount of debt and no job prospects I guess I'd give it a try too.

P.S. I really, really miss Pokerstars. We need to regulate and legalize online poker in the US already.

Meh, if you can take the grind and spend some time actually studying the game and getting good, and playing lower variance games such as FR, then you can get an hourly that is probly higher than the starting biglaw hourly salary. The problem is that it's extremely draining so putting in the hours is a lot harder at poker, and the pool of fish is ever dwindling thanks to crappy legislation around the world.

Not saying it's easy by any means, but I was seriously considering playing professionally and skipping the whole law school thing before Black Friday hit. Good thing I didn't!

And what I wouldn't give for Zynga real-money games....a man can dream

[Anonymous User]

Not at all. But you're saying you're scared. If there's another school that doesn't scare you perhaps you'd be happier there. If no such school exists you might be better off waiting a year to see if what everyone else keeps saying is now the case is in fact reflected in next year's numbers. Going to LS with this doom & gloom attitude is probably not the wisest idea. So in short, if you're truly scared then don't go.

I'm a little confused about how I can say that the 2009 employment disaster frightens me and you arrive at the conclusion that I have a "doom & gloom attitude" and therefore am "scared" of going to law school.

I think that being frightened by the situation in 2009 is a legitimate concern, but I also realize that things have changed. Your comment seemed trite to me, and I don't know if you meant to come across as a jerk or not.

With that said, though, do any 3Ls have any personal opinions they'd be willing to share regarding their job search? I met a few at ASW and each of them seemed to already have a job lined out--and jobs that they were happy about, at that. But, I'm not sure if that's to be expected.

ETA: I also give props to Mich for releasing such things. I already had a considerable amount of respect for them, but this just reaffirms that.

I suspect that Michigan released this info because of significant pressure from admitted students, which coincided with a talk and blog post by Paul Campos about the dismal employment situation at his alma mater. He talked at Michigan on Friday, March 30 and made his blog post before the full data was released.

[keg411]

Not at all. But you're saying you're scared. If there's another school that doesn't scare you perhaps you'd be happier there. If no such school exists you might be better off waiting a year to see if what everyone else keeps saying is now the case is in fact reflected in next year's numbers. Going to LS with this doom & gloom attitude is probably not the wisest idea. So in short, if you're truly scared then don't go.

I'm a little confused about how I can say that the 2009 employment disaster frightens me and you arrive at the conclusion that I have a "doom & gloom attitude" and therefore am "scared" of going to law school.

I think that being frightened by the situation in 2009 is a legitimate concern, but I also realize that things have changed. Your comment seemed trite to me, and I don't know if you meant to come across as a jerk or not.

With that said, though, do any 3Ls have any personal opinions they'd be willing to share regarding their job search? I met a few at ASW and each of them seemed to already have a job lined out--and jobs that they were happy about, at that. But, I'm not sure if that's to be expected.

ETA: I also give props to Mich for releasing such things. I already had a considerable amount of respect for them, but this just reaffirms that.

I suspect that Michigan released this info because of significant pressure from admitted students, which coincided with a talk and blog post by Paul Campos about the dismal employment situation at his alma mater. He talked at Michigan on Friday, March 30 and made his blog post before the full data was released.

The release was WAY too soon after the talk to give the talk or ASW any credit, IMO. It really looks like a project that's been in the works for a while.

[NinerFan]

Not at all. But you're saying you're scared. If there's another school that doesn't scare you perhaps you'd be happier there. If no such school exists you might be better off waiting a year to see if what everyone else keeps saying is now the case is in fact reflected in next year's numbers. Going to LS with this doom & gloom attitude is probably not the wisest idea. So in short, if you're truly scared then don't go.

I'm a little confused about how I can say that the 2009 employment disaster frightens me and you arrive at the conclusion that I have a "doom & gloom attitude" and therefore am "scared" of going to law school.

I think that being frightened by the situation in 2009 is a legitimate concern, but I also realize that things have changed. Your comment seemed trite to me, and I don't know if you meant to come across as a jerk or not.

With that said, though, do any 3Ls have any personal opinions they'd be willing to share regarding their job search? I met a few at ASW and each of them seemed to already have a job lined out--and jobs that they were happy about, at that. But, I'm not sure if that's to be expected.

ETA: I also give props to Mich for releasing such things. I already had a considerable amount of respect for them, but this just reaffirms that.

I suspect that Michigan released this info because of significant pressure from admitted students, which coincided with a talk and blog post by Paul Campos about the dismal employment situation at his alma mater. He talked at Michigan on Friday, March 30 and made his blog post before the full data was released.

The release was WAY too soon after the talk to give the talk or ASW any credit, IMO. It really looks like a project that's been in the works for a while.

They were probably in the process of releasing the list before ASW. BUT, just based on how my school's career office tracks employment, it would take someone about 5 minutes with Excel to generate a list like they did. The only part that takes awhile is data collection. If you have the data, it's copy/paste.

[keg411]

Well, I don't know how long Michigan took to collect data, but I honestly doubt that there was any change directly because of ASW or the Campos talk. Everyone and their mother knew what Campos was going to say and there was another ASW two weeks earlier. Plus, y'know, there's the whole "nine months from graduation" date which didn't happen until right before the data was released anyway (May --> February = 9 months, plus time to collect detailed c/o '11 data on February employment puts you at the end of March as a release date). I mean, it's not like they're suddenly out of whack with the other schools releasing data, which is all happening right about this time.

I'm sorry, but no matter what the method, I really doubt this was a PANIC! or last minute decision to release this (especially when they were collecting and publishing extremely specific data on people that included things like "sheep farmer" and "professional poker player").

[JoeMo]

Well, I don't know how long Michigan take to collect data, but I honestly doubt that there was any change directly because of ASW or the Campos talk. Everyone and there mother knew what Campos was going to say and there was another ASW two weeks earlier. Plus, y'know, there's the whole "nine months from graduation" date which didn't happen until right before the data was released anyway (May --> February = 9 months, plus time to collect detailed c/o '11 data on February employment puts you at the end of March as a release date). I mean, it's not like they're suddenly out of whack with the other schools releasing data, which is all happening right about this time.

I'm sorry, but no matter what the method, I really doubt this was a PANIC! or last minute decision to release this (especially when they were collecting and publishing extremely specific data on people that included things like "sheep farmer" and "professional poker player").

Yeah, exactly. Or we could just take Dean Z's word that they were planning on releasing it and had planned on releasing it as soon as it was ready. She actually said they wanted to have it prior to Campos talking but it didn't work out that way.

[keg411]

Well, I don't know how long Michigan take to collect data, but I honestly doubt that there was any change directly because of ASW or the Campos talk. Everyone and there mother knew what Campos was going to say and there was another ASW two weeks earlier. Plus, y'know, there's the whole "nine months from graduation" date which didn't happen until right before the data was released anyway (May --> February = 9 months, plus time to collect detailed c/o '11 data on February employment puts you at the end of March as a release date). I mean, it's not like they're suddenly out of whack with the other schools releasing data, which is all happening right about this time.

I'm sorry, but no matter what the method, I really doubt this was a PANIC! or last minute decision to release this (especially when they were collecting and publishing extremely specific data on people that included things like "sheep farmer" and "professional poker player").

Yeah, exactly. Or we could just take Dean Z's word that they were planning on releasing it and had planned on releasing it as soon as it was ready. She actually said they wanted to have it prior to Campos talking but it didn't work out that way.

From your quote, I just realized my grammar in that post was atrocious . "There" instead of "their", "take" instead of "took" .

[Real Madrid]

Holy shit those are some depressing numbers.

Goes to show again that Penn>Mishitgan.

The HYS CCN MVPB DCNG mini tiers were created to reflect the reality of admissions selectivity. They don't reflect biglaw placement power now and I don't think they ever really did.

I'd argue Mishitgan isn't more selective than DN and maybe even G.

Good God you're dumb as shit.

[Mal Reynolds]

Holy shit those are some depressing numbers.

Goes to show again that Penn>Mishitgan.

The HYS CCN MVPB DCNG mini tiers were created to reflect the reality of admissions selectivity. They don't reflect biglaw placement power now and I don't think they ever really did.

I'd argue Mishitgan isn't more selective than DN and maybe even G.

Good God you're dumb as shit.

Maybe he is overall but I don't think he is too far off when it comes to admissions between M, D, N. Maybe less so with G.