Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:At the Gibson Dunn dinner I saw at least 15 people as well.


They don't make offers to everyone who attends these dinners.



I don't know if someone responded to this already, but the numbers I was previously talking about were the offer dinners - i.e. everyone had an offer. For DPW there were around 15 there, and a few people I know were given an offer but chose not to attend.


I'm an interviewer at GDC and I can confirm that not everyone who is invited to the dinners gets an offer. Most (all?) of them get CBs, but not all of them get offers.


Sorry, I wasn't being clear. You are def right for the initial OCI dinners, but a number of firms came back to campus a few months after OCI and gave offer dinners - i.e. everyone at the dinner had an offer. This is what the previous numbers for DPW were talking about.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:33 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm going to pull the "3L" card here and say this: having a skeptical attitude about job prospects going in is incredibly useful. C/O 2011's horrific OCI was going on while I was a 1L. I didn't have the relative mountain of data that you guys do now. So I made conservative assumptions. I assumed that I needed to finish top 1/3 to get a job. When it came time for OCI, I did over 50 screeners between Loyola and OCI. I spent 1L summer talking to as many people as I could who might be able to get my resume in front of someone. In the end it was massive overkill, because C/O 2012's OCI went much better than C/O 2011's, but I can't say being a skeptic did anything about help me in the end. I don't know a single skeptical gunner who doesn't have a firm job in my class.

I think it is incredibly dangerous when people like Scrabble underestimate their competition because they're asking what the social scene is like on a TLS thread. For C/O 2011, 1/4 of people ended up with crappy jobs even at schools that melted down less than Michigan. It is very easy to be in that group if you underestimate your peers.


CR. For all of you know-it-all 0Ls ITT, you have no fucking idea what the economy will be like when you go through OCI, so I suggest you look carefully at the range of potential employment outcomes in deciding whether to go to law school (class of 2007 being at one extreme and class of 2011 being at the other extreme). Then, once you're in law school, don't forget that it's entirely possible for you to try your hardest and end up at or slightly above median.


You think getting slightly above median is the bad result? That winning law school.

I know plenty of smart people, who knew about TLS and all the exam help, worked hard, and ended up below median. Sometimes significantly below median.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:34 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm going to pull the "3L" card here and say this: having a skeptical attitude about job prospects going in is incredibly useful. C/O 2011's horrific OCI was going on while I was a 1L. I didn't have the relative mountain of data that you guys do now. So I made conservative assumptions. I assumed that I needed to finish top 1/3 to get a job. When it came time for OCI, I did over 50 screeners between Loyola and OCI. I spent 1L summer talking to as many people as I could who might be able to get my resume in front of someone. In the end it was massive overkill, because C/O 2012's OCI went much better than C/O 2011's, but I can't say being a skeptic did anything about help me in the end. I don't know a single skeptical gunner who doesn't have a firm job in my class.

I think it is incredibly dangerous when people like Scrabble underestimate their competition because they're asking what the social scene is like on a TLS thread. For C/O 2011, 1/4 of people ended up with crappy jobs even at schools that melted down less than Michigan. It is very easy to be in that group if you underestimate your peers.


CR. For all of you know-it-all 0Ls ITT, you have no fucking idea what the economy will be like when you go through OCI, so I suggest you look carefully at the range of potential employment outcomes in deciding whether to go to law school (class of 2007 being at one extreme and class of 2011 being at the other extreme). Then, once you're in law school, don't forget that it's entirely possible for you to try your hardest and end up at or slightly above median.


You think getting slightly above median is the bad result? That winning law school.

I know plenty of smart people, who knew about TLS and all the exam help, worked hard, and ended up below median. Sometimes significantly below median.


While slackers end up above median.

Law school is not just.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby GMVarun » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:05 pm

johansantana21 wrote:While slackers end up above median.

Law school is not just.


Law school is as "just" as life. There are plenty of people who work really hard at their jobs and do not make a lot of money (most, in fact). There are also a lot of people who do not work that hard and make tons of money, or inherited tons of money. Sometimes it seems that as law students we live in this privileged bubble where we think only our lives are terrible and only we work terribly hard and do not get compensated for our hard work.

I am not saying ending up with a lot of debt and no job prospects is this great outcome. No, it is not. Law school is a terribly risky decision. Only go to law school if you want to be a lawyer and even then, only go to a school that allows you to be a lawyer and if you are willing to bear that risk.

In any case, I am really happy that my school disclosed this information. This transparency allows prospective students to make informed decisions. If you think you are making a better decision by going to a non-transparent T14, then all the power to you. If you think these non-transparent t14s have nothing to hide, but are hiding, again all the power to you.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:02 pm

GMVarun wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:While slackers end up above median.

Law school is not just.


In any case, I am really happy that my school disclosed this information. This transparency allows prospective students to make informed decisions. If you think you are making a better decision by going to a non-transparent T14, then all the power to you. If you think these non-transparent t14s have nothing to hide, but are hiding, again all the power to you.


As someone who has been crunching all this data for the last couple of weeks (plug: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723) I think it's hyperbole to call the disclosures of the other T14 "non-transparent." The "Yale format" disclosures used by the other T14 are quite transparent (and at least for the T14 that have reported so far for 2011, match up nicely with the NLJ's independent statistics). They have some advantage's over Michigan's disclosure, such as detailing part-time/non-permanent status. Moreover, Michigan's salary reporting rate for 2011 is dismal (50%, versus 80% at NU and 88% at Penn). And some schools have additional disclosures that are quite valuable. NU, for example, gives a complete salary distribution in $20k/year increments.

I think it's great that Michigan has raised the bar for transparency. However, the other T14s have published solid statistics, and did so quite awhile ago.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby GMVarun » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:01 pm

rayiner wrote:
GMVarun wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:While slackers end up above median.

Law school is not just.


In any case, I am really happy that my school disclosed this information. This transparency allows prospective students to make informed decisions. If you think you are making a better decision by going to a non-transparent T14, then all the power to you. If you think these non-transparent t14s have nothing to hide, but are hiding, again all the power to you.


As someone who has been crunching all this data for the last couple of weeks (plug: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=181415, http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=181723) I think it's hyperbole to call the disclosures of the other T14 "non-transparent." The "Yale format" disclosures used by the other T14 are quite transparent (and at least for the T14 that have reported so far for 2011, match up nicely with the NLJ's independent statistics). They have some advantage's over Michigan's disclosure, such as detailing part-time/non-permanent status. Moreover, Michigan's salary reporting rate for 2011 is dismal (50%, versus 80% at NU and 88% at Penn). And some schools have additional disclosures that are quite valuable. NU, for example, gives a complete salary distribution in $20k/year increments.

I think it's great that Michigan has raised the bar for transparency. However, the other T14s have published solid statistics, and did so quite awhile ago.


Sorry, that came across as too strong. Some are less transparent; some are more. I was not making a claim about any particular law schools, outside of Michigan. My point was merely that less transparency should be construed against the school. I was also responding to this idea that we would have been "better off" if we had disclosed less.

You can make up your own mind:
Cornell: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm (though maybe more is forth coming since it says under construction)
Duke: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts (a good model but nothing yet for Class of 2011)
Georgetown: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/2L_2E_3E/ (there is some stuff here, but it is really hard to figure out what the actual numbers are from this.

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rayiner
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:45 pm

GMVarun wrote:
rayiner wrote:
GMVarun wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:While slackers end up above median.

Law school is not just.


In any case, I am really happy that my school disclosed this information. This transparency allows prospective students to make informed decisions. If you think you are making a better decision by going to a non-transparent T14, then all the power to you. If you think these non-transparent t14s have nothing to hide, but are hiding, again all the power to you.


As someone who has been crunching all this data for the last couple of weeks (plug: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723) I think it's hyperbole to call the disclosures of the other T14 "non-transparent." The "Yale format" disclosures used by the other T14 are quite transparent (and at least for the T14 that have reported so far for 2011, match up nicely with the NLJ's independent statistics). They have some advantage's over Michigan's disclosure, such as detailing part-time/non-permanent status. Moreover, Michigan's salary reporting rate for 2011 is dismal (50%, versus 80% at NU and 88% at Penn). And some schools have additional disclosures that are quite valuable. NU, for example, gives a complete salary distribution in $20k/year increments.

I think it's great that Michigan has raised the bar for transparency. However, the other T14s have published solid statistics, and did so quite awhile ago.


Sorry, that came across as too strong. Some are less transparent; some are more. I was not making a claim about any particular law schools, outside of Michigan. My point was merely that less transparency should be construed against the school. I was also responding to this idea that we would have been "better off" if we had disclosed less.

You can make up your own mind:
Cornell: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm (though maybe more is forth coming since it says under construction)
Duke: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts (a good model but nothing yet for Class of 2011)
Georgetown: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/2L_2E_3E/ (there is some stuff here, but it is really hard to figure out what the actual numbers are from this.


I definitely think that more transparency is better. My point is simply that it's incorrect to say that the other schools are "non-transparent." As a practical matter the "Yale format" disclosure gives you much the same information as Michigan's disclosure, at least if you're trying to figure out who is making decent money and who is not.[1]

As for the other schools, the correct link to Georgetown's data is at: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/Em ... istics.htm

A number of schools have yet to post 2011 data, but schools have just started posting that over the past few weeks.

Cornell's data is very detailed, and they deserve credit for being the first T14 to give detailed breakdowns as far back as 2009-2010. The other T14 at the time just gave "74% went to firms" type information.

I think Northwestern's is unique in that it gives a detailed salary distribution for the whole class: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

Chicago and Columbia go a step beyond and give 1L and 2L summer stats: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... rospective

Yale was responsible for the new detailed reporting format, IIRC: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm

The others all follow Yale's format, with UVA and NYU losing a point for not breaking down temporary versus permanent employment, and UVA loses another one for not breaking down state/federal clerkships.

[1] Out of the 183 NALP firms with 100+ attorneys, 165 pay $100k+, with most of the rest paying $90k and a handful of firms in Maine and Kentucky paying ~$80k.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:49 pm

rayiner wrote:
GMVarun wrote:
rayiner wrote:
GMVarun wrote:
In any case, I am really happy that my school disclosed this information. This transparency allows prospective students to make informed decisions. If you think you are making a better decision by going to a non-transparent T14, then all the power to you. If you think these non-transparent t14s have nothing to hide, but are hiding, again all the power to you.


As someone who has been crunching all this data for the last couple of weeks (plug: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723) I think it's hyperbole to call the disclosures of the other T14 "non-transparent." The "Yale format" disclosures used by the other T14 are quite transparent (and at least for the T14 that have reported so far for 2011, match up nicely with the NLJ's independent statistics). They have some advantage's over Michigan's disclosure, such as detailing part-time/non-permanent status. Moreover, Michigan's salary reporting rate for 2011 is dismal (50%, versus 80% at NU and 88% at Penn). And some schools have additional disclosures that are quite valuable. NU, for example, gives a complete salary distribution in $20k/year increments.

I think it's great that Michigan has raised the bar for transparency. However, the other T14s have published solid statistics, and did so quite awhile ago.


Sorry, that came across as too strong. Some are less transparent; some are more. I was not making a claim about any particular law schools, outside of Michigan. My point was merely that less transparency should be construed against the school. I was also responding to this idea that we would have been "better off" if we had disclosed less.

You can make up your own mind:
Cornell: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm (though maybe more is forth coming since it says under construction)
Duke: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts (a good model but nothing yet for Class of 2011)
Georgetown: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/2L_2E_3E/ (there is some stuff here, but it is really hard to figure out what the actual numbers are from this.


I definitely think that more transparency is better. My point is simply that it's incorrect to say that the other schools are "non-transparent." As a practical matter the "Yale format" disclosure gives you much the same information as Michigan's disclosure, at least if you're trying to figure out who is making decent money and who is not.[1]

As for the other schools, the correct link to Georgetown's data is at: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/Em ... istics.htm

A number of schools have yet to post 2011 data, but schools have just started posting that over the past few weeks.

Cornell's data is very detailed, and they deserve credit for being the first T14 to give detailed breakdowns as far back as 2009-2010. The other T14 at the time just gave "74% went to firms" type information.

I think Northwestern's is unique in that it gives a detailed salary distribution for the whole class: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

Chicago and Columbia go a step beyond and give 1L and 2L summer stats: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... rospective

Yale was responsible for the new detailed reporting format, IIRC: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm

The others all follow Yale's format, with UVA and NYU losing a point for not breaking down temporary versus permanent employment, and UVA loses another one for not breaking down state/federal clerkships.

[1] Out of the 183 NALP firms with 100+ attorneys, 165 pay $100k+, with most of the rest paying $90k and a handful of firms in Maine and Kentucky paying ~$80k.


OMFG, you have put a lot of time into this.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:53 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:OMFG, you have put a lot of time into this.


As C/O 2012, we had zero data like this coming into 1L. These young 'uns are lucky!

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Mr. Somebody » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:59 pm

Rayiner Wheres the Cornell data you're talking about? Thanks for all the work you've done by the way

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:11 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:Rayiner Wheres the Cornell data you're talking about? Thanks for all the work you've done by the way


It was here once, and it will be here again...

(They took it down a week or two ago presumably to update it with a new format. It used to just be a PDF with a pretty detailed breakdown, but not as fancy as what's the other T14's have rolled out over the last year).

LawIdiot86
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby LawIdiot86 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:12 pm

rayiner wrote:
GMVarun wrote:
rayiner wrote:
GMVarun wrote:In any case, I am really happy that my school disclosed this information. This transparency allows prospective students to make informed decisions. If you think you are making a better decision by going to a non-transparent T14, then all the power to you. If you think these non-transparent t14s have nothing to hide, but are hiding, again all the power to you.


As someone who has been crunching all this data for the last couple of weeks (plug: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723) I think it's hyperbole to call the disclosures of the other T14 "non-transparent." The "Yale format" disclosures used by the other T14 are quite transparent (and at least for the T14 that have reported so far for 2011, match up nicely with the NLJ's independent statistics). They have some advantage's over Michigan's disclosure, such as detailing part-time/non-permanent status. Moreover, Michigan's salary reporting rate for 2011 is dismal (50%, versus 80% at NU and 88% at Penn). And some schools have additional disclosures that are quite valuable. NU, for example, gives a complete salary distribution in $20k/year increments.

I think it's great that Michigan has raised the bar for transparency. However, the other T14s have published solid statistics, and did so quite awhile ago.


Sorry, that came across as too strong. Some are less transparent; some are more. I was not making a claim about any particular law schools, outside of Michigan. My point was merely that less transparency should be construed against the school. I was also responding to this idea that we would have been "better off" if we had disclosed less.

You can make up your own mind:
Cornell: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm (though maybe more is forth coming since it says under construction)
Duke: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts (a good model but nothing yet for Class of 2011)
Georgetown: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/2L_2E_3E/ (there is some stuff here, but it is really hard to figure out what the actual numbers are from this.


I definitely think that more transparency is better. My point is simply that it's incorrect to say that the other schools are "non-transparent." As a practical matter the "Yale format" disclosure gives you much the same information as Michigan's disclosure, at least if you're trying to figure out who is making decent money and who is not.[1]

As for the other schools, the correct link to Georgetown's data is at: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/Em ... istics.htm

A number of schools have yet to post 2011 data, but schools have just started posting that over the past few weeks.

Cornell's data is very detailed, and they deserve credit for being the first T14 to give detailed breakdowns as far back as 2009-2010. The other T14 at the time just gave "74% went to firms" type information.

I think Northwestern's is unique in that it gives a detailed salary distribution for the whole class: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

Chicago and Columbia go a step beyond and give 1L and 2L summer stats: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... rospective

Yale was responsible for the new detailed reporting format, IIRC: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm

The others all follow Yale's format, with UVA and NYU losing a point for not breaking down temporary versus permanent employment, and UVA loses another one for not breaking down state/federal clerkships.

[1] Out of the 183 NALP firms with 100+ attorneys, 165 pay $100k+, with most of the rest paying $90k and a handful of firms in Maine and Kentucky paying ~$80k.


Any chance of a google spreadsheet of actually usable NALP data? Their search interface is terrible.

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rayiner
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:20 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:Any chance of a google spreadsheet of actually usable NALP data? Their search interface is terrible.


Search "Firms" of 100-250 attorneys in advanced search. Then click on the little check-box in the "Employer name" row in the first column (it will activate all the other check-boxes). Then click on the chart icon between the envelope and floppy icons, select "salaries". It will given you a table you can paste into Excel.

Oblomov
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Oblomov » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:01 am

Hahahahahahah.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby 09042014 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:15 am

Oblomov wrote:Hahahahahahah.


Glad to see the rumor that you killed yourself wasn't true.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby skers » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:27 pm

Oblomov wrote:If you're considering schools in the t-14 and have options other than the UMich, take your other option(s). Their career services goes beyond incompetent. They give advice that actually harms students' career searches and refuse to make even minimal effort or accommodation for students. I'd be willing to bet that their employment statistics for the next two years will verify this, if they release honest data. Without exaggeration, I wish that I had taken any of my offers in place of this one. Well, maybe not Georgetown, but any of the others.


lulz

LawIdiot86
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:41 pm

rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Any chance of a google spreadsheet of actually usable NALP data? Their search interface is terrible.


Search "Firms" of 100-250 attorneys in advanced search. Then click on the little check-box in the "Employer name" row in the first column (it will activate all the other check-boxes). Then click on the chart icon between the envelope and floppy icons, select "salaries". It will given you a table you can paste into Excel.


Oh, I knew this. I was just assuming you had normalized the data for all the funky firm name capitalization and stuff.

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rayiner
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:30 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Any chance of a google spreadsheet of actually usable NALP data? Their search interface is terrible.


Search "Firms" of 100-250 attorneys in advanced search. Then click on the little check-box in the "Employer name" row in the first column (it will activate all the other check-boxes). Then click on the chart icon between the envelope and floppy icons, select "salaries". It will given you a table you can paste into Excel.


Oh, I knew this. I was just assuming you had normalized the data for all the funky firm name capitalization and stuff.


Firm name capitalization?

LawIdiot86
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:45 pm

rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Any chance of a google spreadsheet of actually usable NALP data? Their search interface is terrible.


Search "Firms" of 100-250 attorneys in advanced search. Then click on the little check-box in the "Employer name" row in the first column (it will activate all the other check-boxes). Then click on the chart icon between the envelope and floppy icons, select "salaries". It will given you a table you can paste into Excel.


Oh, I knew this. I was just assuming you had normalized the data for all the funky firm name capitalization and stuff.


Firm name capitalization?


Things like

Code: Select all

Allen Matkins Leck Gamble Mallory & Natsis LLP (San Diego & Del Mar Heights)   
Allen Matkins Leck Gamble Mallory & Natsis LLP (San Francisco & Walnut Creek)


and

Code: Select all

ALSTON & BIRD LLP   
Alston & Bird LLP


and

Code: Select all

BAKER & HOSTETLER LLP - ORLANDO   
BAKER & HOSTETLER LLP - WASHINGTON, D.C.


and

Code: Select all

Ropes & Gray LLP   
Ropes & Gray LLP - Collective Form


all make it very difficult to run pivot tables and create summary data because some of it is duplicative or the capitalization or different name forms throw off Excel. I mean normalized in the sense that each firm has an identical name and no duplication for each set of NALP forms for all its offices.

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rayiner
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:04 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:all make it very difficult to run pivot tables and create summary data because some of it is duplicative or the capitalization or different name forms throw off Excel. I mean normalized in the sense that each firm has an identical name and no duplication for each set of NALP forms for all its offices.


Ah, gotcha. I didn't do any data analysis, just quickly skimmed through the salary chart to see how many firms in that range paid less than six figures to entry-levels.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:50 pm

JoeMo wrote: I'd be more inclined to take his word at face value if he were to quit his professorship because of the poor state of law school academics. That would at least follow what he's saying with some action. But he's simply talking the talk and some people seem to be buying too much stock in it.


He is doing a lot more good by being inside the system. You know, his blog is called "inside the law school scam."

No one would listen to him if he was just some random fifty year old man, or some former law professor who writes a disgruntled blog about his past.

Think about it.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:20 pm

Campos is actually a pretty amusing guy live--the clip of his talk at Stanford is entertaining. He has put himself in a rather strange position--he's collecting a six-figure paycheck from a school he thinks screws over half its student body year after year. Would he be happy if he were wildly successful and people stopped applying to Colorado and the school closed?

Campos also seems to think there has been some kind of sea change (outside of the crash) since he went to law school--he definitely makes it sound like Michigan was a sound choice back when he was attending 30 years ago, but is an awful choice now. He makes an offhand remark that back when he graduated "everyone got a big law firm job," and they felt sorry for the handful of people who had to, "god forbid" take jobs with the federal government. Anyone venture to guess where he's coming from, or if he's just revealing an unfounded personal bias? If anything Biglaw has expanded relative to the legal market as a whole.

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bk1
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby bk1 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:24 pm

ahnhub wrote:Campos also seems to think there has been some kind of sea change (outside of the crash) since he went to law school--he definitely makes it sound like Michigan was a sound choice back when he was attending 30 years ago, but is an awful choice now.

Law schools, especially public law schools, were far cheaper 30 years ago than they are today.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby NinerFan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:37 pm

Even a decade or so ago I think law schools were cheaper and interest rates for loans were significantly lower than they are now.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:40 pm

ahnhub wrote:Campos also seems to think there has been some kind of sea change (outside of the crash) since he went to law school--he definitely makes it sound like Michigan was a sound choice back when he was attending 30 years ago, but is an awful choice now. He makes an offhand remark that back when he graduated "everyone got a big law firm job," and they felt sorry for the handful of people who had to, "god forbid" take jobs with the federal government. Anyone venture to guess where he's coming from, or if he's just revealing an unfounded personal bias? If anything Biglaw has expanded relative to the legal market as a whole.


There are several factors at play.

First, law school was a ton cheaper back in the day. He graduated Michigan Law in 1989, and if he was in-state, would have paid $14,936 for his law degree. That's $27,167 in today's dollars. That's roughly 4,500 hours of work at the then-prevaling minimum wage. Today, the cost of a Michigan law degree, in-state, is about $140,000 dollars. That's roughly 19,500 hours of minimum wage work.

Second, while big law has grown relative to the legal industry as a whole, that has been the result of consolidation. A lot of smaller local firms paying solid wages have been replaced with a smaller number of huge firms. At the same time, the number of graduates competing for the smaller number of (albeit higher paying) jobs has increased by about 25%.

Third, even a few years ago nearly everyone at Michigan got a big firm job, if they wanted one. That's not true anymore, at any of the lower T14.




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