Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:09 pm

johansantana21 wrote:Holy shit those are some depressing numbers.

Goes to show again that Penn>Mishitgan.

The HYS CCN MVPB DCNG mini tiers were created to reflect the reality of admissions selectivity. They don't reflect biglaw placement power now and I don't think they ever really did.

User avatar
johansantana21
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:11 pm

IAFG wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Holy shit those are some depressing numbers.

Goes to show again that Penn>Mishitgan.

The HYS CCN MVPB DCNG mini tiers were created to reflect the reality of admissions selectivity. They don't reflect biglaw placement power now and I don't think they ever really did.


I'd argue Mishitgan isn't more selective than DN and maybe even G.

User avatar
johansantana21
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:12 pm

JoeMo wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Being scared shitless of going to Michigan is not only a good idea, but the only rational one.


You're late to the party. Have fun catching up.


No need, I could tell you were a retard from just one post.


Hahahahahahahahaha... here we go with the ad-hom again. Douchebags like you find it hard to accept when someone disagrees with their point of view.

Again, if you're scared shitless in approaching a situation, then don't. It really is that simple.


Have fun getting MEDIANPWNED at Mishitgan. Maybe you can tell me how your confidence worked out then.

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:14 pm

johansantana21 wrote:Have fun getting MEDIANPWNED at Mishitgan. Maybe you can tell me how your confidence worked out then.


You are a worthless poster.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:16 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Holy shit those are some depressing numbers.

Goes to show again that Penn>Mishitgan.

The HYS CCN MVPB DCNG mini tiers were created to reflect the reality of admissions selectivity. They don't reflect biglaw placement power now and I don't think they ever really did.


I'd argue Mishitgan isn't more selective than DN and maybe even G.


They're probably outdated. Some schools haven't been keeping up in the LSAT arms race. Some schools that used to take splitters and super splitters don't anymore. The point is, applying them to biglaw placement doesn't make sense. In fact, when they came into being, everyone at T14s had a great shot at biglaw, and the relative placement consideration was more about prestigious PI, clerkships, other non-biglaw doors.

flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby flcath » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:24 pm

Frankly, Michigan should not have come forward with these.

I mean, we all want to be in a profession where the schools *all* do exactly this, but being a brave pioneer is not a good idea.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby shoeshine » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:28 pm

flcath wrote:Frankly, Michigan should not have come forward with these.

I mean, we all want to be in a profession where the schools *all* do exactly this, but being a brave pioneer is not a good idea.


+1, this will not help them. I am sure things didn't look awesome at Berkeley or UVA either but now the presumption is that things were much worse at M.

User avatar
Julio_El_Chavo
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:37 pm

rayiner wrote:I'm going to pull the "3L" card here and say this: having a skeptical attitude about job prospects going in is incredibly useful. C/O 2011's horrific OCI was going on while I was a 1L. I didn't have the relative mountain of data that you guys do now. So I made conservative assumptions. I assumed that I needed to finish top 1/3 to get a job. When it came time for OCI, I did over 50 screeners between Loyola and OCI. I spent 1L summer talking to as many people as I could who might be able to get my resume in front of someone. In the end it was massive overkill, because C/O 2012's OCI went much better than C/O 2011's, but I can't say being a skeptic did anything about help me in the end. I don't know a single skeptical gunner who doesn't have a firm job in my class.

I think it is incredibly dangerous when people like Scrabble underestimate their competition because they're asking what the social scene is like on a TLS thread. For C/O 2011, 1/4 of people ended up with crappy jobs even at schools that melted down less than Michigan. It is very easy to be in that group if you underestimate your peers.


CR. For all of you know-it-all 0Ls ITT, you have no fucking idea what the economy will be like when you go through OCI, so I suggest you look carefully at the range of potential employment outcomes in deciding whether to go to law school (class of 2007 being at one extreme and class of 2011 being at the other extreme). Then, once you're in law school, don't forget that it's entirely possible for you to try your hardest and end up at or slightly above median.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:40 pm

shoeshine wrote:
flcath wrote:Frankly, Michigan should not have come forward with these.

I mean, we all want to be in a profession where the schools *all* do exactly this, but being a brave pioneer is not a good idea.


+1, this will not help them. I am sure things didn't look awesome at Berkeley or UVA either but now the presumption is that things were much worse at M.

That was already the presumption after the NLJ250 data. This data at least showed that Mich kids got some decent PI stuff. For c/o 2011, 2 got ACLU, 1 got Animal Legal Defense Fund, 1 got CATO, 1 at Clean Air Council, 1 at ELPC, 10+ in bigfed... Honestly better than I would have assumed.

User avatar
Julio_El_Chavo
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:44 pm

IAFG wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
flcath wrote:Frankly, Michigan should not have come forward with these.

I mean, we all want to be in a profession where the schools *all* do exactly this, but being a brave pioneer is not a good idea.


+1, this will not help them. I am sure things didn't look awesome at Berkeley or UVA either but now the presumption is that things were much worse at M.

That was already the presumption after the NLJ250 data. This data at least showed that Mich kids got some decent PI stuff. For c/o 2011, 2 got ACLU, 1 got Animal Legal Defense Fund, 1 got CATO, 1 at Clean Air Council, 1 at ELPC, 10+ in bigfed... Honestly better than I would have assumed.


Yeah, throw in the number of JAGs and Article III clerks, and things don't look as bad as some in here have suggested.

Citizen Genet
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Citizen Genet » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:48 pm

This may have been answered, but I don't see it anywhere on Michigan's data: are any of these short-term employment that is being funded by the school? In other words, are all of these great PI gigs a result of Michigan padding stats or are they students who legitimately have careers now?

User avatar
thelawschoolproject
Posts: 1364
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:58 am

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby thelawschoolproject » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:49 pm

Alright people....how did I go from this:

thelawschoolproject wrote:This frightens me. :|


(in regard to the OP and 2009 employment)

To this:

ScrabbleChamp wrote:I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.


Never said I was scared to go to law school . . . not even sure where you got this from. I also wasn't aware that I was "unsure of [my] decision."

ScrabbleChamp wrote:if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.


Telling me to do something else with my life was warranted. Thank you. I'm looking for prostitution gigs now.

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.


Sorry that my "incessant bitching" (see the above singular post) bothered you.

JoeMo wrote:But as an ADULT going to a PROFESSIONAL school, sometimes it's best to just own your decisions whole-heartedly rather than spend your time on here bitching about the fact that you're worried about your future. As Scrabble said, if you're so worried don't go.


Again, sorry that my "bitching" was SOOO off-putting. I'll try to control myself.

JoeMo wrote:Again, if you're scared shitless in approaching a situation, then don't. It really is that simple.



Scared shitless. So scared. Might die of fear.




Okay, so I don't even know what fucking happened. This shit is dumb. I enjoyed the actual discussion of the actual topic at hand. Can we get back to that? Thanks.

<3 Tlsp

User avatar
Samara
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 4:26 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Samara » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:56 pm

<3 tlsp

User avatar
ScrabbleChamp
Posts: 963
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:09 am

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:21 pm

thelawschoolproject wrote:Alright people....how did I go from this:

thelawschoolproject wrote:This frightens me. :|


(in regard to the OP and 2009 employment)

To this:

ScrabbleChamp wrote:I don't get the train of thought behind being "scared" of going to a law school (Michigan or not) and still going. If you are unsure of your decision, then DON'T GO. Don't invest 3 years of your life, excessive amounts of debt, and time probably better spent elsewhere if you are not 100% sure of your choice.


Never said I was scared to go to law school . . . not even sure where you got this from. I also wasn't aware that I was "unsure of [my] decision."

ScrabbleChamp wrote:if the numbers published by any school make you faint of heart, maybe law school isn't for you and you should find something else to do with your life.


Telling me to do something else with my life was warranted. Thank you. I'm looking for prostitution gigs now.

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Either way, if you are not 100% sure about attending law school, don't, and save yourself the money/time and the rest of us your incessant bitching about bleak employment prospects.


Sorry that my "incessant bitching" (see the above singular post) bothered you.

JoeMo wrote:But as an ADULT going to a PROFESSIONAL school, sometimes it's best to just own your decisions whole-heartedly rather than spend your time on here bitching about the fact that you're worried about your future. As Scrabble said, if you're so worried don't go.


Again, sorry that my "bitching" was SOOO off-putting. I'll try to control myself.

JoeMo wrote:Again, if you're scared shitless in approaching a situation, then don't. It really is that simple.



Scared shitless. So scared. Might die of fear.




Okay, so I don't even know what fucking happened. This shit is dumb. I enjoyed the actual discussion of the actual topic at hand. Can we get back to that? Thanks.

<3 Tlsp


Tlsp - Not sure if you saw this, but I'm guessing not:

ScrabbleChamp wrote: First, I didn't single any one person out...


I meant in no way to single you out or make it seem as if you were the inspiration behind my statements. My comments were directed to those people (like the guy at ASW who sought out a Dean and, no joke, told them they were lying about their employment because he heard this and that... he didn't even listen to the Dean, he just accused her of everything that is wrong in the world) seem to bitch about issues that they don't need to deal with. Why would you go to the UMich ASW just to tell administrators they lie and their school sucks? Also, for those that complain incessantly (I don't know if you do or don't, but you don't ring a bell as one of the people that posts over and over about how bleak the market is, how dumb it is to go to law school, etc...) when they don't need to.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18408
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:29 pm

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, clerkship, etc.

The next person to ignore that rule isn't going to be happy about it.

User avatar
Mr. Somebody
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:42 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Mr. Somebody » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:38 pm

Sorry if this has been answered already, but is there any data on the final outcomes for those who had post-grad fellowships?

flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby flcath » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:41 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:Sorry if this has been answered already, but is there any data on the final outcomes for those who had post-grad fellowships?

Dean Z has stated that only 8 fellowships are included in the final 9-months-out data; the rest are either recorded as employed in their new jobs (in their appropriate category) or as unemployed.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273170
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:At the Gibson Dunn dinner I saw at least 15 people as well.


They don't make offers to everyone who attends these dinners.



I don't know if someone responded to this already, but the numbers I was previously talking about were the offer dinners - i.e. everyone had an offer. For DPW there were around 15 there, and a few people I know were given an offer but chose not to attend.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby keg411 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:44 pm

flcath wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Sorry if this has been answered already, but is there any data on the final outcomes for those who had post-grad fellowships?

Dean Z has stated that only 8 fellowships are included in the final 9-months-out data; the rest are either recorded as employed in their new jobs (in their appropriate category) or as unemployed.


Yup. It's on the post-graduate fellowship portion on the Michigan Law website.

User avatar
Mr. Somebody
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:42 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Mr. Somebody » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:48 pm

keg411 wrote:
flcath wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Sorry if this has been answered already, but is there any data on the final outcomes for those who had post-grad fellowships?

Dean Z has stated that only 8 fellowships are included in the final 9-months-out data; the rest are either recorded as employed in their new jobs (in their appropriate category) or as unemployed.


Yup. It's on the post-graduate fellowship portion on the Michigan Law website.


Right but is there a way of figuring out if they got biglaw, clerkships, PI, etc

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby keg411 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:52 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
keg411 wrote:
flcath wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Sorry if this has been answered already, but is there any data on the final outcomes for those who had post-grad fellowships?

Dean Z has stated that only 8 fellowships are included in the final 9-months-out data; the rest are either recorded as employed in their new jobs (in their appropriate category) or as unemployed.


Yup. It's on the post-graduate fellowship portion on the Michigan Law website.


Right but is there a way of figuring out if they got biglaw, clerkships, PI, etc


My guess is they were a reason for the high number of good Federal Gov't/PI jobs on the list.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273170
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:At the Gibson Dunn dinner I saw at least 15 people as well.


They don't make offers to everyone who attends these dinners.



I don't know if someone responded to this already, but the numbers I was previously talking about were the offer dinners - i.e. everyone had an offer. For DPW there were around 15 there, and a few people I know were given an offer but chose not to attend.


I'm an interviewer at GDC and I can confirm that not everyone who is invited to the dinners gets an offer. Most (all?) of them get CBs, but not all of them get offers.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby flcath » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:53 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
keg411 wrote:
flcath wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Sorry if this has been answered already, but is there any data on the final outcomes for those who had post-grad fellowships?

Dean Z has stated that only 8 fellowships are included in the final 9-months-out data; the rest are either recorded as employed in their new jobs (in their appropriate category) or as unemployed.


Yup. It's on the post-graduate fellowship portion on the Michigan Law website.


Right but is there a way of figuring out if they got biglaw, clerkships, PI, etc

(1) They are aggregated into the numbers for those respective categories. But no, you can't tell what the actual outcomes for the specific kids in the fellowship program were.

(2) But I, personally, can tell you: no, they didn't get biglaw or clerkships.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:13 pm

JoeMo wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.


Ad Hom much?


That's not an ad hom. Saying, you are moron, therefore you are wrong is an ad hom. She is just concluding that you would in fact be a moron. The causation is reversed.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:13 pm

rayiner wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you're 100% sure law school is a good plan, you're a moron.


Ad Hom much?


Improper use of "ad hominem" in this context. "You're a moron" is a conclusion, not a basis for an attack on an argument.


LOL in re: my last comment. ^




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.