Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

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NinerFan
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby NinerFan » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:28 pm

thisguy456 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:And what about the personal responsibility of the deans, professors, and the CSO? Why is it always the people with the most to lose, the least information, and who are looking in from the outside trying to make sense of intentionally confusing information that get blamed?


Well said.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Old Gregg » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:32 pm

This "personal responsibility" anonymous guy needs to get un-anomymous really quickly:

(a) So I can beat his ass.

(b) So I can finally determine his class year and conclude with 100% certainty that he's full of shit. Right now, I'm at about 99%.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Ruxin1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:41 pm

I've learned more than I thought possible about the nature of legal hiring, employment statistics, etc. from just reading rayiner's posts, I think Scrabble/Anons would be much better off listening to 3L's who have been through OCI than trying to create some pissing contest

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rayiner
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:43 pm

I have a final to study for, so I'm going to repeat what IAFG said: people from other industries, leave your preconceptions at the door. I worked before law school too--legal hiring is not the same. I've heard about partners straight-up telling people "we think you're great in every way, but we can't hire you because of the rank of your school." Legal hiring is not like hiring in other fields (though it's closest to banking or consulting in terms of how prestige-driven it is). And heck, legal classes and exams are not like classes and exams in other fields. People who think they have the answers figured out are in legitimate danger of walking blithely into exams and OCI not knowing what the fuck they're doing.

Finally, I don't want to rag on Michigan. Career services offices across the T14 made mistakes in 2009. But this data is useful. Campos's comments are useful, if only to get data like this out there. The NYT article, for example, about the NLJ 250 rankings, was great in forcing CLS and NYU to cough up data that improved the quality of information people have access to.

Data is useful. Getting people to release data is useful. Moralizing about "personal responsibility" is mostly a defense mechanism.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:45 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:This "personal responsibility" anonymous guy needs to get un-anomymous really quickly:

(a) So I can beat his ass.

(b) So I can finally determine his class year and conclude with 100% certainty that he's full of shit. Right now, I'm at about 99%.


I'm pretty sure anonymous "personal responsibility" person is a 0L.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:47 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:I just remembered something else about Michigan's OCS. For OCI 2010, our OCS gave out callback data for both pre-recession, and for OCI 2009 individually. Michigan's gave averaged data from like 2006-2009. It's this kind of thing that no amount of "personal responsibility" will fix. They have access to this data, and you don't. It's entirely reasonable to depend on them to leverage the data they have to help you make the best decisions about bidding, firm selection, etc.


As students, it's our debt and our personal responsibility. Period. (I truly don't say that in a mean tone so I hope it doesn't come across as such.)

I think the personal responsibility talk is moot as it's a given in any industry. As I said, you are the driver of you.

Legal employment really is unusual compared to other industries, so your analogies aren't strong and your past experience does not apply to the degree that you think it does.

The fact is, if you don't get a job out of OCI or a good career fair like the patent fair or a diversity fair, there aren't many jobs left. Even with all the personal responsibility and hustle in the world, in 2009, if you didn't get a job out of OCI, you were incredibly, possibly irreparably fucked. There weren't back-up plans or alternatives like there are for grads of other programs, at least not ones that would allow people to service their debt. Law is too bimodal, too snobby, and too stodgy for that.


Understood, but that's a risk that any person takes. Plus, our graduating class will be 5-6 yrs from when the numbers being reported. If anyone is banking on current outcomes, they are sorely mistaken. That's the risk you take.

Some people have networking skills and grades, some do not. Period.
Some jobs are due to access and networking ability. I know that getting a secretarial job at a law firm that is a Vault firm was due to insider info and not posted jobs. That's my point. It's all a risk. Either you mentally/financially/academically can handle the risk or you end up causing your head to spin over your negative actions and attitudes. Skepticism is generally ok if it's with a positive outlook mindset. If you're skeptical when entering, don't enter.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:53 pm

Wow, what a clusterfuck this thread is. Why are all these 0Ls being so defensive? Does it freak you out to think that all the people who didn't get jobs are just like you? Because it should. I guarantee you that many of them had substantial work experience, took OCS's advice with a grain of salt, and worked hard 1L year.

Also, law school is nothing like boot camp and you're going to make a lot of people hate you and roll their eyes at you if you treat it that way.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:55 pm

rayiner wrote:I have a final to study for, so I'm going to repeat what IAFG said: people from other industries, leave your preconceptions at the door. I worked before law school too--legal hiring is not the same. I've heard about partners straight-up telling people "we think you're great in every way, but we can't hire you because of the rank of your school." Legal hiring is not like hiring in other fields (though it's closest to banking or consulting in terms of how prestige-driven it is). And heck, legal classes and exams are not like classes and exams in other fields. People who think they have the answers figured out are in legitimate danger of walking blithely into exams and OCI not knowing what the fuck they're doing.

Finally, I don't want to rag on Michigan. Career services offices across the T14 made mistakes in 2009. But this data is useful. Campos's comments are useful, if only to get data like this out there. The NYT article, for example, about the NLJ 250 rankings, was great in forcing CLS and NYU to cough up data that improved the quality of information people have access to.

Data is useful. Getting people to release data is useful. Moralizing about "personal responsibility" is mostly a defense mechanism.


I agree with your overall sentiment. I've said similar things myself. Especially in regards to your last couple sentences in your first paragraph. We don't disagree on that. Which is why I said, some people are meant for school and some will flunk out their first semester and first year. Thus is one of the risks.

Both graduates from lower-tiered schools that I know are in the same job position in the same city. I am going to operate under that assumption and be blessed for anything better. Beyond that, as I said, I'm not entering the market now for current outcomes. I am in the game for the long haul.

We all take risks and should make the best personal decision for our current situation, never assuming that anything in the future is a given. That's my point.

I will revert back to my analogy that the individuals with the Trayvon case are FSU, FAMU and ONU-based. Therefore, you can't predict the severity of your future case-load. That's my general point. Law school will not guarantee you a law job. Only you can guarantee yourself that. Therein lies the personal responsibility card.

Good luck on your final.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:I have a final to study for, so I'm going to repeat what IAFG said: people from other industries, leave your preconceptions at the door. I worked before law school too--legal hiring is not the same. I've heard about partners straight-up telling people "we think you're great in every way, but we can't hire you because of the rank of your school." Legal hiring is not like hiring in other fields (though it's closest to banking or consulting in terms of how prestige-driven it is). And heck, legal classes and exams are not like classes and exams in other fields. People who think they have the answers figured out are in legitimate danger of walking blithely into exams and OCI not knowing what the fuck they're doing.

Finally, I don't want to rag on Michigan. Career services offices across the T14 made mistakes in 2009. But this data is useful. Campos's comments are useful, if only to get data like this out there. The NYT article, for example, about the NLJ 250 rankings, was great in forcing CLS and NYU to cough up data that improved the quality of information people have access to.

Data is useful. Getting people to release data is useful. Moralizing about "personal responsibility" is mostly a defense mechanism.


I agree with your overall sentiment. I've said similar things myself. Especially in regards to your last couple sentences in your first paragraph. We don't disagree on that. Which is why I said, some people are meant for school and some will flunk out their first semester and first year. Thus is one of the risks.

Both graduates from lower-tiered schools that I know are in the same job position in the same city. I am going to operate under that assumption and be blessed for anything better. Beyond that, as I said, I'm not entering the market now for current outcomes. I am in the game for the long haul.

We all take risks and should make the best personal decision for our current situation, never assuming that anything in the future is a given. That's my point.

I will revert back to my analogy that the individuals with the Trayvon case are FSU, FAMU and ONU-based. Therefore, you can't predict the severity of your future case-load. That's my general point. Law school will not guarantee you a law job. Only you can guarantee yourself that. Therein lies the personal responsibility card.

Good luck on your final.

The people associated with the Trayvon Martin case are small-town Florida lawyers who happened to stumble into a national media firestorm. There's no reason to think they're successful or even good attorneys.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:08 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:I have a final to study for, so I'm going to repeat what IAFG said: people from other industries, leave your preconceptions at the door. I worked before law school too--legal hiring is not the same. I've heard about partners straight-up telling people "we think you're great in every way, but we can't hire you because of the rank of your school." Legal hiring is not like hiring in other fields (though it's closest to banking or consulting in terms of how prestige-driven it is). And heck, legal classes and exams are not like classes and exams in other fields. People who think they have the answers figured out are in legitimate danger of walking blithely into exams and OCI not knowing what the fuck they're doing.

Finally, I don't want to rag on Michigan. Career services offices across the T14 made mistakes in 2009. But this data is useful. Campos's comments are useful, if only to get data like this out there. The NYT article, for example, about the NLJ 250 rankings, was great in forcing CLS and NYU to cough up data that improved the quality of information people have access to.

Data is useful. Getting people to release data is useful. Moralizing about "personal responsibility" is mostly a defense mechanism.


I agree with your overall sentiment. I've said similar things myself. Especially in regards to your last couple sentences in your first paragraph. We don't disagree on that. Which is why I said, some people are meant for school and some will flunk out their first semester and first year. Thus is one of the risks.

Both graduates from lower-tiered schools that I know are in the same job position in the same city. I am going to operate under that assumption and be blessed for anything better. Beyond that, as I said, I'm not entering the market now for current outcomes. I am in the game for the long haul.

We all take risks and should make the best personal decision for our current situation, never assuming that anything in the future is a given. That's my point.

I will revert back to my analogy that the individuals with the Trayvon case are FSU, FAMU and ONU-based. Therefore, you can't predict the severity of your future case-load. That's my general point. Law school will not guarantee you a law job. Only you can guarantee yourself that. Therein lies the personal responsibility card.

Good luck on your final.

The people associated with the Trayvon Martin case are small-town Florida lawyers who happened to stumble into a national media firestorm. There's no reason to think they're successful or even good attorneys.


You just made my point. You can't predict future outcomes. However, I'd say that the Martin lawyers are in-grained in the local community and are fairly significant leaders within their own right. Another instance is, the Florida AG is a Stetson grad. Not a T14. She's also part of the health care SC case. I'm saying that you can't predict future outcomes entirely based on going to X school.

The AG that even made the health care SC case as big as it is went to George Mason. He was the one that created the defense against the law. Last I checked, GM wasn't T14.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You just made my point. You can't predict future outcomes. However, I'd say that the Martin lawyers are in-grained in the local community and are fairly significant leaders within their own right. Another instance is, the Florida AG is a Stetson grad. Not a T14. She's also part of the health care SC case. I'm saying that you can't predict future outcomes entirely based on going to X school.


Fucking statistics... how do they work?

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:13 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You just made my point. You can't predict future outcomes. However, I'd say that the Martin lawyers are in-grained in the local community and are fairly significant leaders within their own right. Another instance is, the Florida AG is a Stetson grad. Not a T14. She's also part of the health care SC case. I'm saying that you can't predict future outcomes entirely based on going to X school.


Fucking statistics... how do they work?


You might want to ask the AGs for VA and FL how they work since they're performing so poorly and all.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby zzzzzzzzzz » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:15 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm going to pull the "3L" card here and say this: having a skeptical attitude about job prospects going in is incredibly useful. C/O 2011's horrific OCI was going on while I was a 1L. I didn't have the relative mountain of data that you guys do now. So I made conservative assumptions. I assumed that I needed to finish top 1/3 to get a job. When it came time for OCI, I did over 50 screeners between Loyola and OCI. I spent 1L summer talking to as many people as I could who might be able to get my resume in front of someone. In the end it was massive overkill, because C/O 2012's OCI went much better than C/O 2011's, but I can't say being a skeptic did anything about help me in the end. I don't know a single skeptical gunner who doesn't have a firm job in my class.

I think it is incredibly dangerous when people like Scrabble underestimate their competition because they're asking what the social scene is like on a TLS thread. For C/O 2011, 1/4 of people ended up with crappy jobs even at schools that melted down less than Michigan. It is very easy to be in that group if you underestimate your peers.


I think Scrabble is only insinuating that there is and should be no social life in law school. I'd attest to the same general thought process.

I understand where Scrabble is coming from with his general statements. A lot of people that enter the legal profession are not gunners. It was smart of you to go in front of 50 screeners. I think that some of us, myself included obviously, are merely saying that some of us that are seeking out law school right now are already going into it with that mentality. Placing so much importance on only the CSO is wrong. They should be an aid. But you are the driver of you, so to speak.

People who want to think about the social scene of law school should really re-examine why they want to go to law school.


If you think how well you do has anything to do with how much you socialize, then you are at risk of falling into a dangerous trap. Doing well in law school is all about how quickly you figure out the game. 95% of your grades can be attributed to the last one month before finals. The rest of the semester, you have plenty of time to socialize. Some people choose to or not, depending on their personalities, but everybody guns the last month and grades end up having little to do with how much people were out drinking in September or October.

Also, as someone who went to engineering school, law school has been one of the most fun experiences of my life. I've met great, down-to-earth people, made fun of a lot of uptight douchebags, met my fiancé, and spent 1L in an alcohol-induced haze. None of that affected my grades or my job hunting.


I couldn't agree more with this statement.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You might want to ask the AGs for VA and FL how they work since they're performing so poorly and all.


wut

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You might want to ask the AGs for VA and FL how they work since they're performing so poorly and all.


wut

Ha.

Look, poster-who-is-anonymous-for-no-reason-and-talking-about-off-topic-things, if your point here is that not every lawyer with a good job went to a T14 school, then, okay, have a cookie.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You just made my point. You can't predict future outcomes. However, I'd say that the Martin lawyers are in-grained in the local community and are fairly significant leaders within their own right. Another instance is, the Florida AG is a Stetson grad. Not a T14. She's also part of the health care SC case. I'm saying that you can't predict future outcomes entirely based on going to X school.


Fucking statistics... how do they work?


You might want to ask the AGs for VA and FL how they work since they're performing so poorly and all.


Jesus, you're a fucking moron.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby FryBreadPower » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:34 pm

What the hell is happening in here?

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thelawschoolproject
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby thelawschoolproject » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:37 pm

FryBreadPower wrote:What the hell is happening in here?



It's all my fault. See Page 1.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby Kurst » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:37 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:This "personal responsibility" anonymous guy needs to get un-anomymous really quickly:

(a) So I can beat his ass.

(b) So I can finally determine his class year and conclude with 100% certainty that he's full of shit. Right now, I'm at about 99%.

"Personal Responsibility" anonymous is a 0L planning to go to a TTTT.

Anonymous 0L wrote:Placing so much importance on only the CSO is wrong. They should be an aid. But you are the driver of you, so to speak.
Anonymous 0L wrote:Unless you're regional and from the Midwest, I would think it was apparent that [for OCI] you should blanket multiple cities
Anonymous 0L wrote:not sure how OCI works
Anonymous 0L wrote:
rayiner wrote:I just remembered something else about Michigan's OCS. For OCI 2010, our OCS gave out callback data for both pre-recession, and for OCI 2009 individually. Michigan's gave averaged data from like 2006-2009. It's this kind of thing that no amount of "personal responsibility" will fix. They have access to this data, and you don't. It's entirely reasonable to depend on them to leverage the data they have to help you make the best decisions about bidding, firm selection, etc.


As students, it's our debt and our personal responsibility. Period. (I truly don't say that in a mean tone so I hope it doesn't come across as such.)

I think the personal responsibility talk is moot as it's a given in any industry. As I said, you are the driver of you.
Anonymous 0L wrote:I also think that skepticism is ok, but I don't think that second-guessing yourself is a general good strategy.
Anonymous 0L wrote:our graduating class will be 5-6 yrs from when the numbers being reported. If anyone is banking on current outcomes, they are sorely mistaken. That's the risk you take.

Skepticism is generally ok if it's with a positive outlook mindset. If you're skeptical when entering, don't enter.

Anonymous 0L wrote:And I think that there are some people that will perform solid whether they go to a T14 vs. a TTTT and it's up to that person in conjunction with their CSO to make it happen.
Anonymous 0L wrote:the individuals with the Trayvon case are FSU, FAMU and ONU-based
Anonymous 0L wrote:the guy that is the lawyer for the Zimmerman's aka a high profile potential case right now, went to ONU
Anonymous 0L wrote:I really see rebirth going on in the legal industry
Anonymous 0L wrote:I didn't mean peer as in T14s against other T14s. I meant T14s and TTTT. I will network and be friendly to all. That's my strategy and I won't budge from it. Some people will think that only T14 matters and that's ok for them. However, I've seen more people from non-T14s in the real world and for that reason, we all command a certain level of general respect.
Anonymous 0L wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:The people associated with the Trayvon Martin case are small-town Florida lawyers who happened to stumble into a national media firestorm. There's no reason to think they're successful or even good attorneys.

You just made my point. You can't predict future outcomes. However, I'd say that the Martin lawyers are in-grained in the local community and are fairly significant leaders within their own right. Another instance is, the Florida AG is a Stetson grad. Not a T14. She's also part of the health care SC case. I'm saying that you can't predict future outcomes entirely based on going to X school.

The AG that even made the health care SC case as big as it is went to George Mason. He was the one that created the defense against the law. Last I checked, GM wasn't T14.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby keg411 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 pm

Holy thread explosion. I just want to say that I think the Michigan admits are being defensive because it's their school that's under fire since they actually set out all of the detailed ITE information, warts and all. I know that I've felt the need to defend my school/class the last couple of days and feel like I'm in a tight spot right now. Also, a lot of people from peer schools seem to be gloating about Michigan's "failure" as if they're the only school that had a horrible time placing students ITE, when we all know that is far from the truth.

Anyway, a few things.

1) OCS. First, Michigan's OCS wasn't the only one who fucked up during ITE. I have on personal knowledge that Cornell's OCS had no clue what to do with no-offered 2010 people and were completely caught off guard and didn't know what advice to give or what to do. Second, we know Michigan's OCS office epic failed in 2009, but the office really really helped me after OCI, and I would NOT have a BigLaw job right now without their efforts. So whatever they fucked up in the past, they seemed to have fixed. Did I have to be proactive about it? Yes, but believe me it worked.

2) I think it's all just a good proxy to what happened ITE. Everyone knew the 2011 numbers were going to be dismal. They are. Wish other schools would also release their detailed information but they aren't.

3) I think Campos' message is overall good, but he admitted himself that he exaggerates stuff (he admitted this at the Michigan program, which I didn't attend because I was sick, but I got the info from a friend). He also uses way too much anecdotal information (like the whole transfer fiasco). I also don't know if his message contributed or if it's ABA pressure or LST or just the media in general, but I'm really happy with the increased transparency overall. Hopefully since the top schools are doing it, other schools will follow suit. Honestly, though, I really liked Campos and his message until he straight-up shit on transfers without checking his sources.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:59 pm

Holy shit those are some depressing numbers.

Goes to show again that Penn>Mishitgan.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:03 pm

JoeMo wrote:
thelawschoolproject wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
thelawschoolproject wrote:This frightens me. :|


Then don't go.



Um..okay? You're cool.


Not at all. But you're saying you're scared. If there's another school that doesn't scare you perhaps you'd be happier there. If no such school exists you might be better off waiting a year to see if what everyone else keeps saying is now the case is in fact reflected in next year's numbers. Going to LS with this doom & gloom attitude is probably not the wisest idea. So in short, if you're truly scared then don't go.


Being scared shitless of going to Michigan is not only a good idea, but the only rational one.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:04 pm

johansantana21 wrote:Being scared shitless of going to Michigan is not only a good idea, but the only rational one.


You're late to the party. Have fun catching up.

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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:05 pm

JoeMo wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Being scared shitless of going to Michigan is not only a good idea, but the only rational one.


You're late to the party. Have fun catching up.


No need, I could tell you were a retard from just one post.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Releases Full Employment Stats

Postby JoeMo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:08 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Being scared shitless of going to Michigan is not only a good idea, but the only rational one.


You're late to the party. Have fun catching up.


No need, I could tell you were a retard from just one post.


Hahahahahahahahaha... here we go with the ad-hom again. Douchebags like you find it hard to accept when someone disagrees with their point of view.

Again, if you're scared shitless in approaching a situation, then don't. It really is that simple.




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