Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

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romothesavior
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:14 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Since there's like 5 people every decade that make it to biglaw from a TTT like Hastings


lol c'mon

johan continues to become a bigger asshole, as well as stupider. A dangerous combo.

Interesting article, OP.


At least I don't have to live out my best years in the shithole that is the midwest.

OH SICK BURN

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:36 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Since there's like 5 people every decade that make it to biglaw from a TTT like Hastings


lol c'mon

johan continues to become a bigger asshole, as well as stupider. A dangerous combo.

Interesting article, OP.


At least I don't have to live out my best years in the shithole that is the midwest.





Image

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rayiner
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby rayiner » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:49 pm

I think it's a combination of three things, in order:

1) People who grind their way to top 1% at Brooklyn and end up in the same fancy NYC firm as someone who coasted to top 1/3 at Columbia probably have way more work ethic to put in the time required to make partner at such a firm.

2) Firms are more generous with grade cut-offs at top schools versus lower-ranked schools than is warranted based purely on the differences in intellectual ability of the student bodies. Top 1% at BLS is treated similarly to top 1/3 at Columbia, but the former is probably stronger academically.

3) For exits in the third-year, when a large number of people leave big law, school name still carries some weight, and opens up more in-house options for people from good schools.

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fanmingrui
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby fanmingrui » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:54 pm

Retake ED Cooley?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:57 pm

rayiner wrote:I think it's a combination of three things, in order:

1) People who grind their way to top 1% at Brooklyn and end up in the same fancy NYC firm as someone who coasted to top 1/3 at Columbia probably have way more work ethic to put in the time required to make partner at such a firm.

2) Firms are more generous with grade cut-offs at top schools versus lower-ranked schools than is warranted based purely on the differences in intellectual ability of the student bodies. Top 1% at BLS is treated similarly to top 1/3 at Columbia, but the former is probably stronger academically.

3) For exits in the third-year, when a large number of people leave big law, school name still carries some weight, and opens up more in-house options for people from good schools.

This seems exactly right to me.

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Borhas
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:26 pm

the lower tier school the better your grades have to be

if you have have higher grades you probably had to work much harder

top 5-10% of a T50 or TT tells me you are not dumb and you can grind it out

median at T14 tells me you did well in college (which doesn't tell me much) or the LSAT (either not dumb or assburgler)

that's my guess

also this:


rayiner wrote:
3) For exits in the third-year, when a large number of people leave big law, school name still carries some weight, and opens up more in-house options for people from good schools.

MrAnon
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby MrAnon » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:36 pm

Are we talking equity partner or service partner? I have rarely encountered an equity partner from a lower tier school. Service partner? Yeah sure, but who cares? That's like being a prisoner for life.

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Cupidity
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby Cupidity » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:44 pm

Biglaw firms dip down to the 30-50% for many of the T14, whereas kids they hire out of Hastings are generally top 5%. Of course the top 5% TT kid outperforms, he is way smarter and harder working then some median kid from a preftigious degree-mill.

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20130312
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby 20130312 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:03 pm

I see Dean Z has arrived on this page.

MrAnon
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby MrAnon » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:12 pm

Cupidity wrote:Biglaw firms dip down to the 30-50% for many of the T14, whereas kids they hire out of Hastings are generally top 5%. Of course the top 5% TT kid outperforms, he is way smarter and harder working then some median kid from a preftigious degree-mill.


Outperforms? Or simply can't get another gig? People from the T14 have options, or realize law sucks and get out. The Hastings people never had any other options and still don't after 10 years in law.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:20 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:I see Dean Z has arrived on this page.



Greatest blog on Earth!




Well, at least I like it.... :lol:

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:24 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Cupidity wrote:Biglaw firms dip down to the 30-50% for many of the T14, whereas kids they hire out of Hastings are generally top 5%. Of course the top 5% TT kid outperforms, he is way smarter and harder working then some median kid from a preftigious degree-mill.


Outperforms? Or simply can't get another gig? People from the T14 have options, or realize law sucks and get out. The Hastings people never had any other options and still don't after 10 years in law.


I predict that this thread will end well.

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beachbum
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby beachbum » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:33 pm

romothesavior wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:At least I don't have to live out my best years in the shithole that is the midwest.

OH SICK BURN


I mean, St. Louis is ok, but it's no Ithaca.

bruss
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby bruss » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:46 pm

Don't know if this has been said but it probably depends on the law firm and hard work. If A t14 grad at median goes to a prestigious firm of course its going to be hard to make partner. While The TT grad who makes 1% at a less prestigious firm has a greater chance to make partner.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:37 am

beachbum wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:At least I don't have to live out my best years in the shithole that is the midwest.

OH SICK BURN


I mean, St. Louis is ok, but it's no Ithaca.



Ithaca is GORGES. :P You set me up for that one.

Seriously, though. johansantana goes right to the crazy ad hominem attack like anyone who graduates from Wash U is destined to live in East St. Louis or something... crazy.

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buckilaw
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby buckilaw » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:51 am

direct from the article in the OP

2) Elite law school grads are more likely to come from affluent families. “When mom and dad are both lawyers, and grandpa owned a factory, maybe it's time to focus on art and travel,” Henderson writes. “In effect, one's inheritance becomes one's safety net.”

3) Law school admissions committees are becoming more focused on undergraduate grades and the Law School Admission Test. “This has fundamentally altered the BigLaw pipeline with students who are (excessively?) academic and lack significant brushes with real world adversity—not ideal grooming for a high stress professional service job,” Henderson says.

4) Elite grads tend to go to the most elite firms where the wash-out rates are higher. Still, the evidence suggests that those who leave the elite firms are moving out of BigLaw, rather than moving down to a less elite firm.



i think these explanations are true to some extent. I'd add that even T14 students who do not come from wealthy families often go into Biglaw with the express intent of staying for 1-3 years to pay off loans before they pursue a public interest career.

Also, while this point is likely not significant, most legal academics only practice big law for 1-2 years. Almost all legal academics come from the T14.

A more accurate measure regarding "performance" would be to consider only T14 students who have a goal of becoming partner vs. students @ other schools; but, that would be really difficult to do.

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leobowski
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby leobowski » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:49 am

bk1 wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:He doesn't say that. There's a big difference between "outperform" and "stick around longer."

To answer the question you posed in the title: the data doesn't tell us anything about chances at partner. Drawing that inference from this data is a lot like comparing biglaw hiring rates as a percentage of class size and concluding that GULC students perform better than Yale students at OCI (I'm looking at you, "Go-to Law School" Rankings). Just as there are more HYS students that self-select into Art III clerkships, there are probably more HYS/T14 students self-selecting into desirable exit options rather than grinding out another 6-7 years for a shot at partner.


That's an optimistic way to look at it. The guy who the article is based on disagrees.

Bill Henderson wrote:5. "A Better Plan B." I know a lot of people in the law world will cling to the notion that elite law school graduates are running government agencies, leaving the law for Wall Street, and generally living very charmed lives. I am sure there is something to this theory. But I doubt it is carrying the load on the BigLaw associate/partner attrition puzzle.


Source: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/legalw ... ition.html



Yeah all the exit options talk in this thread is a little questionable. Outside of legal academia, I really doubt that school ranking plays a paramount role. Especially with regards to federal govt. gigs, as the top few kids at a regional school will be much better positioned to land a federal clerkship over median t14ers. Those local kids will then be in a much better position to get into the USAO/ main DOJ/ other agencies down the road or through honors programs. There's also a good annual bitchfest when DOJ Honors posts the list of schools by hire (hint: even schools like ave maria make the cut sometimes).

Cliffs: everyone mad in this thread (except romo, who is distilled awesomeness)

Anonymous User
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:32 am

The exit options talk is ridiculous.

So the T14 ppl think that they're too good for biglaw now?

Academia? Hmm ok, maybe if you graduated from Yale or have a PhD in social sciences.

Gov/DOJ positions are notoriously prestige-oriented for entry level hiring, but only for entry-level. However, it's well known that for experienced hires, prestige isn't that important for these position. The reason is that for experienced hires, the government doesn't need the prestige for the purpose of "show."

Bottom line is that school rank prestige plays its main role at 2L OCI.

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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby englawyer » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:00 am

MrAnon wrote:
Cupidity wrote:Biglaw firms dip down to the 30-50% for many of the T14, whereas kids they hire out of Hastings are generally top 5%. Of course the top 5% TT kid outperforms, he is way smarter and harder working then some median kid from a preftigious degree-mill.


Outperforms? Or simply can't get another gig? People from the T14 have options, or realize law sucks and get out. The Hastings people never had any other options and still don't after 10 years in law.


whether top 5% TT or top 30% T14 is smarter/harder working is a question that can never realistically be answered. the T14 student body has better stats, so its probably more difficult to hit top 5% at the T14 than at the TT.

we can use anecdotal evidence of transfers killing it during 2L (which would seem to indicate the top 5% transfer student would have hypothetically been in top 5% of the T14 1L), but we don't know about the reporting rate. additionally, 2L and 1L are very different ballgames: 2L lets you pick classes so you can play to your strengths and/or take fluff courses.

concurrent fork
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby concurrent fork » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:The exit options talk is ridiculous.

Why is it any more ridiculous than the people suggesting a top 10% T50 student is smarter/harder working than a top third T14 student? Without more information, we can't reasonably infer whether the disparity is due to performance, exit options, firm ranks, unicorns, or some combination of each.

Also, there's no reason to be anon in this thread.

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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby Detrox » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So the T14 ppl think that they're too good for biglaw. now?

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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:36 pm

beachbum wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:At least I don't have to live out my best years in the shithole that is the midwest.

OH SICK BURN


I mean, St. Louis is ok, but it's no Ithaca.


Please, I'll be out of here in a few years. WUSTL is midwest forever.

Geon
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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby Geon » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:22 am

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:This was an interesting article. Not Earth shattering, but worth a read if you need to waste a minute.

http://www-source.abajournal.com/news/a ... lower-tier

Guy basically says 50-30ranked law school grads outperform t14 in Biglaw. He mixes collected data and anecdotal inferences to argue his thesis.

I could believe this. Many people probably go to t-14 get their jobs and become lazy or complacent after busting their nuts for the last 12 +years. Whereas those in U of Arizona think o man I better work hard to compete with those smart kids from other high ranked schools

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Re: Article: Do Lower Tier Grads fare better at making Partner?

Postby mirodh » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:53 am

Maybe TTT grads aren't competing for business from alumni (not just meaning the law school, but the entire institution for those law schools which are affiliated) with half of their fellow graduates? Of course this is assailable on the grounds that T-14 alumni base likely has a lot more business to share, but I am not sure which side of that would win out.




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