How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:53 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
traehekat wrote:I know at least a few students who decided to study abroad their 1L summer and regretted it, fwiw.

The best thing you can do as a 1L wanting to go into international law is the same thing any 1L should be doing - get good grades. It would also help if you went to Yale.


My friends who studied abroad for 1L summer generally underperformed at OCI compared to other jobs. Going abroad makes you seem less committed to the domestic market where the hiring is done and not fitting the standard judge/AUSA/PD/RA/GC model will throw flags for interviewers, who are almost never "international lawyers."


I'm working in 'international law' this summer at a PI organization that litigates ECtHR cases. I've gotten mixed reactions from lawyers when I tell them I'm working abroad. Most think it's pretty cool, and others think it won't affect my OCI performance at all. But I had a former solicitor general call my summer employment a 'boondoggle;' he was skeptical of its value and thought I should take a more traditional 1L summer job.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby SilverE2 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:02 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
traehekat wrote:I know at least a few students who decided to study abroad their 1L summer and regretted it, fwiw.

The best thing you can do as a 1L wanting to go into international law is the same thing any 1L should be doing - get good grades. It would also help if you went to Yale.


My friends who studied abroad for 1L summer generally underperformed at OCI compared to other jobs. Going abroad makes you seem less committed to the domestic market where the hiring is done and not fitting the standard judge/AUSA/PD/RA/GC model will throw flags for interviewers, who are almost never "international lawyers." Study abroad suspiciously sounds like "I want to be a tourist; I don't want to do grunt work" or "I couldn't get a standard 1L job. Also, very few firms (Freshfields is one) hire into their global trade or international arbitration groups. To them, "international law" means either capital markets deals or immigration clearance. The former doesn't actually care where you've been and the latter is miserable work that is entirely based on U.S. law. Most of my friends who thought they wanted to do international law ended up doing securities (corp or lit) when they realized how hard it was to get hired into an international practice.


Is this still the case if you split your summer with firm work for the second half?

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:05 pm

rad lulz wrote:Want to do ICC/World Bank/human rights in Asscrackistan.


LOL

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turkishswat
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby turkishswat » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:00 pm

timbs4339 wrote:It's really important to have connections with specific countries/regions. I have a friend who is Romanian who can go back to Romania and do NGO work there- he worked between college and law school in the country, has a girlfriend from there, etc. Of course, this kind of background leaves out a lot of the human rights folks who are K-JD international relations majors with one semester of study abroad.

Learning an in-demand language (Russian, Arabic, Korean, Japanese, Chinese...) can really help you for international biglaw. I have a friend who swung a V20 gig with below median grades and he credits it to speaking fluent Russian. He was even given serious matters during his SA because he was on of the few people at the firm who spoke Russian. He won't be going to Moscow any time soon, but it will give him a serious advantage to remaining employed at the firm.

You can also pull some sweet doc review gigs during school. One firm was offering $100/hr for contract review for Japanese speaking law students- 20/hrs per week. That's seriously amazing cash.


$2000/week with no benefits and absolutely no guarantee of work longer than a week???? That is like winning the MegaMillions this week.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby concurrent fork » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:55 pm

rad lulz wrote:Dude what does international law mean to you? What the hell do you want to do? "International law" isn't really a thing without some sort of qualifier such as "International commercial arbitration."

titcr. No one can answer OP's question in the abstract because "international law" doesn't mean anything. It's like asking how to get into "business law." It's a vague term that could refer to hundreds of types of jobs.

You need to describe to us what you want to be doing. Then we can tell you whether it's possible or just unicorn bullshit from marketing materials.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:53 pm

turkishswat wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:It's really important to have connections with specific countries/regions. I have a friend who is Romanian who can go back to Romania and do NGO work there- he worked between college and law school in the country, has a girlfriend from there, etc. Of course, this kind of background leaves out a lot of the human rights folks who are K-JD international relations majors with one semester of study abroad.

Learning an in-demand language (Russian, Arabic, Korean, Japanese, Chinese...) can really help you for international biglaw. I have a friend who swung a V20 gig with below median grades and he credits it to speaking fluent Russian. He was even given serious matters during his SA because he was on of the few people at the firm who spoke Russian. He won't be going to Moscow any time soon, but it will give him a serious advantage to remaining employed at the firm.

You can also pull some sweet doc review gigs during school. One firm was offering $100/hr for contract review for Japanese speaking law students- 20/hrs per week. That's seriously amazing cash.


$2000/week with no benefits and absolutely no guarantee of work longer than a week???? That is like winning the MegaMillions this week.


This was for current law students, hence the 20/week cap. If you would turn down an extra 2K per week during 2L or 3L when you aren't doing much for class anyway I just don't know what to say.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby abacus » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:01 pm

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Last edited by abacus on Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:32 pm

Does international trade & customs law count as "international law".. if so, dont let people tell you its impossible. I don't even know what it is, or if i like it, and i'll be summering at a 50+attny firm that only does this law and making close to market.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby things fall apart » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:36 pm

concurrent fork wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Dude what does international law mean to you? What the hell do you want to do? "International law" isn't really a thing without some sort of qualifier such as "International commercial arbitration."

titcr. No one can answer OP's question in the abstract because "international law" doesn't mean anything. It's like asking how to get into "business law." It's a vague term that could refer to hundreds of types of jobs.

You need to describe to us what you want to be doing. Then we can tell you whether it's possible or just unicorn bullshit from marketing materials.



I've appreciated the help. Honestly, everyone who has wanted to help, has.
The people who have input have just simply replied without needing me to qualify my statements to a large amount. In my estimation you are waiting for me to say "DUURR I JUST WANT TO TRAVEL AND WORK 5 HOURS A WEEK CUZ I AM DE GLAMOROUS" so you can then proceed to try to rain on my parade.
I have received a few PMs from people who have advice both positive and negative, but either way its more than speculative law students who are frothing at the possibility of bringing someone down.
Ciao

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby cantaboot » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:41 pm

I know someone doing international law... she's one of the coolest people i know. She graduated in 2010 from a T20 with honors, speaks both french and spanish, and would have found a more lucrative job if she had wanted to. She's now working in Israel - and as you could surmise, for free. She got a public interest scholarship which could barely cover her living expenses.
I have no doubt that she will be able to move on to some big-name or decent international agencies in a few years.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:18 pm

Meh. 1L doing what I would consider "International Law" this summer - unpaid legal clerk with a refugee NGO in Africa. Client intake, interviews, that sort of thing. I'm pretty excited.

I'm not going to be prosecuting Al Qaeda, but it's something non-domestic...

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby turkishswat » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:17 am

timbs4339 wrote:
turkishswat wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:It's really important to have connections with specific countries/regions. I have a friend who is Romanian who can go back to Romania and do NGO work there- he worked between college and law school in the country, has a girlfriend from there, etc. Of course, this kind of background leaves out a lot of the human rights folks who are K-JD international relations majors with one semester of study abroad.

Learning an in-demand language (Russian, Arabic, Korean, Japanese, Chinese...) can really help you for international biglaw. I have a friend who swung a V20 gig with below median grades and he credits it to speaking fluent Russian. He was even given serious matters during his SA because he was on of the few people at the firm who spoke Russian. He won't be going to Moscow any time soon, but it will give him a serious advantage to remaining employed at the firm.

You can also pull some sweet doc review gigs during school. One firm was offering $100/hr for contract review for Japanese speaking law students- 20/hrs per week. That's seriously amazing cash.


$2000/week with no benefits and absolutely no guarantee of work longer than a week???? That is like winning the MegaMillions this week.


This was for current law students, hence the 20/week cap. If you would turn down an extra 2K per week during 2L or 3L when you aren't doing much for class anyway I just don't know what to say.


Yes. Yes, I read that wrong.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby TaipeiMort » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:49 am

1) Speak one of the following languages: Mandarin, Russian, Portuguese, Arabic. (Or French if you want non-profit African/Europe, but these positions don't actually exist).

2) Become friends with LLMs and ask them to get you in at their domestic firm 1L summer and then leverage that into a Biglaw satellite offer 2L year.

3) Have significant work experience in an area which involves cross-border work. For example, energy or infrastructure for global projects, financial industry experience for capital markets, business experience for M&A and other deals, VC experience for VC, MAAC/tax experience for international tax. THEN, find out which firms actually care about this type of experience and know their core business like the back of your hand. For example, Baker Botts in Houston does global energy, OMM SV does China lit and transactions, London Magic Circle firms do capital markets, Keker, Quinn, and White and Case do a lot of white collar international criminal defense.

REMEMBER: Every firm claims to do "international work" on their website, but you need to plumb deeper to actually know who does stuff.

7255
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby 7255 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:05 am

Currently working at the Constitutional Court of South Africa. Had some "international law" issues come up recently. It's a good gig - very interesting - assuming you're willing to work for 6 months for free in Johannesburg.

I'm willing to take questions if anyone is interested.

As pointed out earlier, it certainly helps to have contacts to the area and the ability to work for free (or for a small amount).

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:53 am

things fall apart wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Dude what does international law mean to you? What the hell do you want to do? "International law" isn't really a thing without some sort of qualifier such as "International commercial arbitration."

titcr. No one can answer OP's question in the abstract because "international law" doesn't mean anything. It's like asking how to get into "business law." It's a vague term that could refer to hundreds of types of jobs.

You need to describe to us what you want to be doing. Then we can tell you whether it's possible or just unicorn bullshit from marketing materials.



I've appreciated the help. Honestly, everyone who has wanted to help, has.
The people who have input have just simply replied without needing me to qualify my statements to a large amount. In my estimation you are waiting for me to say "DUURR I JUST WANT TO TRAVEL AND WORK 5 HOURS A WEEK CUZ I AM DE GLAMOROUS" so you can then proceed to try to rain on my parade.
I have received a few PMs from people who have advice both positive and negative, but either way its more than speculative law students who are frothing at the possibility of bringing someone down.
Ciao


I don't think you did it just to travel, but I think your typical HR person reviewing a resume or random commercial lit associate doing a screener would. The odds you would actually get an international lawyer as your screener are tiny. You have to play to the lowest common denominator in interviews.

concurrent fork
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby concurrent fork » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:59 am

things fall apart wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Dude what does international law mean to you? What the hell do you want to do? "International law" isn't really a thing without some sort of qualifier such as "International commercial arbitration."

titcr. No one can answer OP's question in the abstract because "international law" doesn't mean anything. It's like asking how to get into "business law." It's a vague term that could refer to hundreds of types of jobs.

You need to describe to us what you want to be doing. Then we can tell you whether it's possible or just unicorn bullshit from marketing materials.



I've appreciated the help. Honestly, everyone who has wanted to help, has.
The people who have input have just simply replied without needing me to qualify my statements to a large amount. In my estimation you are waiting for me to say "DUURR I JUST WANT TO TRAVEL AND WORK 5 HOURS A WEEK CUZ I AM DE GLAMOROUS" so you can then proceed to try to rain on my parade.
I have received a few PMs from people who have advice both positive and negative, but either way its more than speculative law students who are frothing at the possibility of bringing someone down.
Ciao

Your estimation is wrong. I know American lawyers working in Geneva in real WTO practices (i.e. not just US antidumping issues) and USTR. I looked into a similar career path myself before deciding on biglaw. Most of the "advice" people have given you (learn a language, meet LLMs) is too generic to be useful, and some (spend 1L summer abroad) is flat out bad as applied to most students.

You are resisting the idea that you need to figure out what kind of work you want to do before asking this question. This view is naive and characteristic of most posters that want to work in "international law." The snarky responses you get are deserved.

Ciao, broheim.

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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:11 am

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Always Credited
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby Always Credited » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:17 am

Image

srfngdd6
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby srfngdd6 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:20 am

get arrested in a foreign country...you can experience intl law firsthand

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:33 am

You either lay the foundation before law school in a meaningful way with experience, connections, and language, or you go to a T-14 with a strong int'l law program. If you want something approaching a guarantee, do both. Even then...it's tough.

jarofsoup
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby jarofsoup » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 am

CISG

LawIdiot86
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:55 am

Ersatz Haderach wrote:You either lay the foundation before law school in a meaningful way with experience, connections, and language, or you go to a T-14 with a strong int'l law program. If you want something approaching a guarantee, do both. Even then...it's tough.


No, this doesn't help people get jobs. This is like those stupid specialty rankings in USNWR.

johndhi
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby johndhi » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:18 am

friend of mine just expressed interest in the relevant groups at school and did something pretty unrelated during 1L. took a bunch of trade courses his second year and interned for ITC. landed job with WTO in Switzerland this summer.

rad lulz
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:26 am

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LawIdiot86
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Re: How does a 1L get into "Internatonal Law"

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:11 pm

johndhi wrote:friend of mine just expressed interest in the relevant groups at school and did something pretty unrelated during 1L. took a bunch of trade courses his second year and interned for ITC. landed job with WTO in Switzerland this summer.


If these all of these schools offer externships at the ICTY, that tells me that externing there will not help you get an actual job at the ICTY.

NESL: http://www.nesl.edu/userfiles/file/Center%20for%20International%20Law%20and%20Policy/handout%20Externship-%20Spring%2010.pdf
Florida Coastal: http://www.fcsl.edu/academics/non-judicial-externships
Vandy: http://law.vanderbilt.edu/academics/academic-programs/international-legal-studies/ilsp-intern-externships/semester-externships/index.aspx
Seattle: http://www.law.seattleu.edu/Academics/Externship_Program/International_Externships.xml
Yale: http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/CDO-10-IntlTribunals-PUBVer.pdf
FSU: http://www.law.fsu.edu/academic_programs/international_law/thehague.html




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