"Volunteer" Clerkships?

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dresden doll
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:35 pm

Napt wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Martin34 wrote:People who aren't smart enough to get a real clerkship shouldn't reap the same benefits (resume boost) as those who are. Be honest and put "volunteer."


But they were smart enough to get it without having to work at hard at lawl school. Sounds like they pwnd you, and you are now jelly.

O ya. I'm so jelly of peeps working a year as a judge's bitch for free.


Well, I guess that's the trade off for not getting an A in crim. Unfortunately for your fee fees, having to distinguish the clerkship on the resume isn't part of that trade off.

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IAFG
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby IAFG » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:40 pm

Napt wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Martin34 wrote:People who aren't smart enough to get a real clerkship shouldn't reap the same benefits (resume boost) as those who are. Be honest and put "volunteer."


But they were smart enough to get it without having to work at hard at lawl school. Sounds like they pwnd you, and you are now jelly.

O ya. I'm so jelly of peeps working a year as a judge's bitch for free shitlaw wages.

FTF what everyone who has the credentials to clerk but doesn't thinks.

Napt
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby Napt » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:42 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Napt wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Napt wrote:If volunteer "clerks" think that their volunteer experience is equatable to a real clerkship, then the volunteer "clerks" can put "Volunteer Clerk" on their resume. No reason to be deceptive.


.... I'm saying its not deceptive. You haven't offered a reason why it is.

Gives employers the impression that you were hired as a real clerk, not as a volunteer.


So what makes a clerk "real" as opposed to "fake"? Both are selected by judges in a competitive application process. Is it because one has a GS level and the other doesn't?

Presumably the job listing for the volunteer clerkship is "Volunteer Clerkship." Why would someone just omit the "Volunteer" part from their resume unless they were being purposely deceptive? And no, volunteer clerkships aren't nearly as competitive as real clerkships, which is another reason why the job title should be differentiated on resumes.

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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby Napt » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:44 pm

IAFG wrote:
Napt wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Martin34 wrote:People who aren't smart enough to get a real clerkship shouldn't reap the same benefits (resume boost) as those who are. Be honest and put "volunteer."


But they were smart enough to get it without having to work at hard at lawl school. Sounds like they pwnd you, and you are now jelly.

O ya. I'm so jelly of peeps working a year as a judge's bitch for free shitlaw wages.

FTF what everyone who has the credentials to clerk but doesn't thinks.

wat? My brain hurts from reading this multiple times.

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dresden doll
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:51 pm

Napt wrote:wat? My brain hurts from reading this multiple times.


She's letting you know that those who have the credentials but choose not to clerk - you know, people who go to places like SulCrom or DPW straight out of lawl school - think that it blows to be a judge's bitch for shitlaw wages, even if there's preftige involved.

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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby Napt » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:00 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Napt wrote:wat? My brain hurts from reading this multiple times.


She's letting you know that those who have the credentials but choose not to clerk - you know, people who go to places like SulCrom or DPW straight out of lawl school - think that it blows to be a judge's bitch for shitlaw wages, even if there's preftige involved.

o i c. But that's just not true. Almost all lit boutiques require a clerkship and a large percentages of incoming v10 associate classes have a clerkship as well. $50k bonus for a clerkship at v10s and the preftige are pretty kewl. Not so sure anyone looks down on clerkships.

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dresden doll
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:06 pm

Napt wrote:o i c. But that's just not true. Almost all lit boutiques require a clerkship and a large percentages of incoming v10 associate classes have a clerkship as well. $50k bonus for a clerkship at v10s and the preftige are pretty kewl. Not so sure anyone looks down on clerkships.

There's at least one person posting ITT whose v10 wasn't exactly ecstatic about his accepting a COA clerkship. Point being, clerkship isn't always desirable. If it were, every v10 associate-to-be would chase after one.

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ggocat
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby ggocat » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:09 pm

I value a clerkship based on the skills and experience you acquire, not on the difficulty of obtaining the job.

As I said on page one of this thread, I'm a paid clerk with no problem thinking volunteer clerks should omit "volunteer." If I'm an employer reviewing resumes from law clerks, I'm going to spot the ones that look weird (lower grades, school rep etc.) anyway.

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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:50 pm

ggocat wrote:I value a clerkship based on the skills and experience you acquire, not on the difficulty of obtaining the job.

As I said on page one of this thread, I'm a paid clerk with no problem thinking volunteer clerks should omit "volunteer." If I'm an employer reviewing resumes from law clerks, I'm going to spot the ones that look weird (lower grades, school rep etc.) anyway.


Exactly. If you did not have the grades to clerk, people will notice. Also, those grades are going to follow the person around wherever they go. If the person did not have the grades to get the job, a clerkship (volunteer or not) is probably not going to save them.

But, there is no question - if a judge says you don't need to put volunteer on your resume, that's just that.

09042014
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:56 pm

ITT you shouldn't be able to put Clerkship unless you earned it by going through some BS application process

But also ITT you should clerk because its AMAZING work experience.

The same amazing work experience that volunteer clerk gets.

I declare this thread solved.

Napt
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby Napt » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:05 pm

Desert Fox wrote:ITT you shouldn't be able to put Clerkship unless you earned it by going through some BS application process

But also ITT you should clerk because its AMAZING work experience.

The same amazing work experience that volunteer clerk gets.

I declare this thread solved.

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ToTransferOrNot
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:10 am

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Napt wrote:wat? My brain hurts from reading this multiple times.


She's letting you know that those who have the credentials but choose not to clerk - you know, people who go to places like SulCrom or DPW straight out of lawl school - think that it blows to be a judge's bitch for shitlaw wages, even if there's preftige involved.

Meanwhile, clerks I know are thinking something along these lines: I love my job. I go home at a reasonable hour. I have no need to worry about billable hours, cancelled vacations, screaming partners, doc review, or other stuff like that. I have free time. I see the sun. My weekends are my own. I am not living the life of the "print this out" guy at S&C. And in the end, I will make nearly as much money as the DPW associate.

Everyone has different preferences, and there is nothing wrong with choosing a firm job over a clerkship. There are advantages to the firm job, to be sure (a little more money, and greater job continuity for those who do want to become partners). But let's not pretend for a moment that the comparison is lopsided as suggested above.

As for volunteer clerks calling themselves clerks, seems unproblematic to me, provided the judge they work for okays it. But that's just my $0.02; both sides seem to have a pretty decent argument here.


In what world is $110k "shitlaw wages," by the way? For that matter, even if you don't include the clerkship bonus, in what world is $60k "shitlaw wages"?

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:20 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:In what world is $110k "shitlaw wages," by the way? For that matter, even if you don't include the clerkship bonus, in what world is $60k "shitlaw wages"?

Exactly. Not to mention the tax treatment differences (e.g., lower marginal rates, no phase-out of various credits and deductions, etc.), which bring clerkships even closer to big law $. The actual bottom line financial difference is real, but not huge.


Think it works out to be around $20-30k, if I remember correctly. On a per-hour basis, clerkships pay far, far more than biglaw. (Unless you're working for Judge Kozinski, I guess.)

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IAFG
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby IAFG » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:40 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:In what world is $110k "shitlaw wages," by the way? For that matter, even if you don't include the clerkship bonus, in what world is $60k "shitlaw wages"?

In the literal sense that $60k is what insurance defense pays. Or at least, that's what my ex was making in ID in BFE.

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wiseowl
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby wiseowl » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:00 pm

There is nothing quite like a clerkship genital-measuring thread to get me to go play outside on a Sunday afternoon.

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ExAnt3
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby ExAnt3 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also, those grades are going to follow the person around wherever they go.


I've already made plans to have mine buried with me.

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dresden doll
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Re: "Volunteer" Clerkships?

Postby dresden doll » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:55 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:In what world is mad skrilla "shitlaw wages," by the way? For that matter, even if you don't include the clerkship bonus, in what world is mad skrilla "shitlaw wages"?

Exactly. Not to mention the tax treatment differences (e.g., lower marginal rates, no phase-out of various credits and deductions, etc.), which bring clerkships even closer to big law mad skrilla. The actual bottom line financial difference is real, but not huge.


Think it works out to be around mad skrilla-30k, if I remember correctly. On a per-hour basis, clerkships pay far, far more than magic unicorns. (Unless you're working for Judge Kozinski, I guess.)


I don't disagree with any of this.




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