For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

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For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:56 pm

How late is absolutely too late to renege on a firm you know your chances of full time employment are <50% at for an offer that is historically 100% offer rate (and pays better as well)? A month before scheduled starting date? Has it already passed? Is there some point at which the firm would legitimately be pissed and do something about it? Having some really tough internal debates going on right now and would appreciate people's opinions (good or bad). For this discussion assume firms are in the same geographic location and splitting isn't an option.

TYIA

seatown12
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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby seatown12 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:09 am

So I'm pretty firmly on the "renege if it's in your personal self-interest" camp and I don't think one month prior is too late. I'd contact the firm you committed to and explain the situation. Give them a chance to match the salary and guarantee an offer, and if they decline take the better position.

Do you think they are going to offer you for being loyal? If not you owe it to yourself to secure your future.

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20160810
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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby 20160810 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:05 pm

It sounds like you're going to renege and just want us to tell you it's ok. It might work out ok, it might come back to bite you in the ass somehow. I don't know. None of us here do. What I do suggest is that if you renege, you communicate honestly with the firm you're turning down and tell them that in this market, you just feel really uncomfortable rolling the dice when the offer jobs to less than half of their summers (phrase it a bit more diplomatically than this). Honestly, they deserve this kind of feedback, and it might make them think twice in the future before they hire summers that they know they probably won't make offers to. Firms that routinely no-offer their summers are one of the few situations where I think it can be reasonable to renege on an accepted offer.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:40 pm

SBL wrote:It sounds like you're going to renege and just want us to tell you it's ok. It might work out ok, it might come back to bite you in the ass somehow. I don't know. None of us here do. What I do suggest is that if you renege, you communicate honestly with the firm you're turning down and tell them that in this market, you just feel really uncomfortable rolling the dice when the offer jobs to less than half of their summers (phrase it a bit more diplomatically than this). Honestly, they deserve this kind of feedback, and it might make them think twice in the future before they hire summers that they know they probably won't make offers to. Firms that routinely no-offer their summers are one of the few situations where I think it can be reasonable to renege on an accepted offer.


I understand and appreciate the input. I really am torn and don't know what I will decide to do yet. I think I might actually enjoy the <50% firm more for full time employment, but I am going to feel beyond stupid if I show "loyalty" and then am not one of the ones offered when it comes time. Can either of you think of diplomatic ways to avoid the question of "where will you be going to work instead" if asked point-blank?

Thanks again.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby 20160810 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
SBL wrote:It sounds like you're going to renege and just want us to tell you it's ok. It might work out ok, it might come back to bite you in the ass somehow. I don't know. None of us here do. What I do suggest is that if you renege, you communicate honestly with the firm you're turning down and tell them that in this market, you just feel really uncomfortable rolling the dice when the offer jobs to less than half of their summers (phrase it a bit more diplomatically than this). Honestly, they deserve this kind of feedback, and it might make them think twice in the future before they hire summers that they know they probably won't make offers to. Firms that routinely no-offer their summers are one of the few situations where I think it can be reasonable to renege on an accepted offer.


I understand and appreciate the input. I really am torn and don't know what I will decide to do yet. I think I might actually enjoy the <50% firm more for full time employment, but I am going to feel beyond stupid if I show "loyalty" and then am not one of the ones offered when it comes time. Can either of you think of diplomatic ways to avoid the question of "where will you be going to work instead" if asked point-blank?

Thanks again.

Not really. It's kinda the risk you run. You could roll the dice and just tell them. You could not tell them, which will make it look like you're trying to cover your tracks. Neither option is likely to leave you feeling good, but this is just kinda the price you have to pay for reneging on an offer.

If you really want to, you could renege by email, and just not reply to that inquiry if it comes, but I can't imagine any way that this ends with you not looking like a scumbag.

ETA, if it were me, I'd just tell them if they ask, and use it to segue into the explanation of why you're taking the other firms offer (e.g. their historic offer rate of 100% for summers). You run the risk of them calling the firm you're heading to and telling them what an awful guy you are or something, so think carefully about whether this is a good choice, but it seems like the most honest approach to me. I doubt your firm is going to revoke your offer because you preferred them over the competition, though you might start out with a bit of a trustworthiness deficit to make up for. I think that if a firm is going to make offers to LESS THAN HALF of their summers, they should know that (1.) this is going to cost them talent and (2.) that their talent is going to the competition. Hopefully in the future they think carefully before bringing law students on for the summer if they don't have a need for another associate.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby seatown12 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:11 pm

SBL wrote:ETA, if it were me, I'd just tell them if they ask, and use it to segue into the explanation of why you're taking the other firms offer (e.g. their historic offer rate of 100% for summers). You run the risk of them calling the firm you're heading to and telling them what an awful guy you are or something, so think carefully about whether this is a good choice, but it seems like the most honest approach to me. I doubt your firm is going to revoke your offer because you preferred them over the competition, though you might start out with a bit of a trustworthiness deficit to make up for. I think that if a firm is going to make offers to LESS THAN HALF of their summers, they should know that (1.) this is going to cost them talent and (2.) that their talent is going to the competition. Hopefully in the future they think carefully before bringing law students on for the summer if they don't have a need for another associate.

This is true, but I would just say "it's another firm that has a historic 100% offer rate" without naming the firm. Gets the point across without the risk.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby ben4847 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:00 pm

who cares. renege.

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kalvano
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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby kalvano » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:20 pm

I agree with SBL in that you should inform them of the reason why, but I don't think you should tell them where you plan on going. It's not really any of their business.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby 20160810 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:15 pm

kalvano wrote:I agree with SBL in that you should inform them of the reason why, but I don't think you should tell them where you plan on going. It's not really any of their business.

This might be the right call. It's really a question of whether telling them has worse consequences than looking like a douche by saying "I'm working for another law firm whose identity I'm keeping top-secret" or some such. After all, assuming OP gets an offer from Firm X, he's going to be on their website and it won't be much of a secret where he's working. Sooner or later, the cat's coming out of the bag on this one.

It might be that in a big market you'd be better to keep it secret, whereas in a small market (where most of the lawyers know either other, by name/reputation if not personally) it would be better to fess up. I really don't know.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:49 pm

I would renege, I would explain to them why, I wouldn't offer the name of the firm unless it is a small market, and I would talk to the firm you are accepting and explain to them the situation and the decision you had to make. Do this in order to protect yourself from any potential repercussions, although I highly doubt your original firm is gonna throw you under the bus. They may be pissed, but they probably won't be so unprofessional as to call your new firm.

How big is the summer class of the you are reneging on, and how do you know they historically are <50%? If it is a smaller market firm with only a small handful of SAs, then there may be some legitimate fluctuation. If you think you'd like the first firm better, then make sure you really know your your odds before bailing. Do you know any 3Ls who worked there last year who you could talk to about it?

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:38 pm

romothesavior wrote:I would renege, I would explain to them why, I wouldn't offer the name of the firm unless it is a small market, and I would talk to the firm you are accepting and explain to them the situation and the decision you had to make. Do this in order to protect yourself from any potential repercussions, although I highly doubt your original firm is gonna throw you under the bus. They may be pissed, but they probably won't be so unprofessional as to call your new firm.

How big is the summer class of the you are reneging on, and how do you know they historically are <50%? If it is a smaller market firm with only a small handful of SAs, then there may be some legitimate fluctuation. If you think you'd like the first firm better, then make sure you really know your your odds before bailing. Do you know any 3Ls who worked there last year who you could talk to about it?


I know for a fact. I would rather not state exact numbers, but I asked what the offer rate was and they said "we have x amount of clerks and we will only offer x amount." the number puts the % well below 50%...even told me a story about how they had one great SA but couldn't hire him/her because the ones they did hire were phenomenal. It is a very large secondary market, and there are only a small handful of SAs at the firm every summer.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby kalvano » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I would renege, I would explain to them why, I wouldn't offer the name of the firm unless it is a small market, and I would talk to the firm you are accepting and explain to them the situation and the decision you had to make. Do this in order to protect yourself from any potential repercussions, although I highly doubt your original firm is gonna throw you under the bus. They may be pissed, but they probably won't be so unprofessional as to call your new firm.

How big is the summer class of the you are reneging on, and how do you know they historically are <50%? If it is a smaller market firm with only a small handful of SAs, then there may be some legitimate fluctuation. If you think you'd like the first firm better, then make sure you really know your your odds before bailing. Do you know any 3Ls who worked there last year who you could talk to about it?


I know for a fact. I would rather not state exact numbers, but I asked what the offer rate was and they said "we have x amount of clerks and we will only offer x amount." the number puts the % well below 50%...even told me a story about how they had one great SA but couldn't hire him/her because the ones they did hire were phenomenal. It is a very large secondary market, and there are only a small handful of SAs at the firm every summer.



Drop them and go to the other firm. They would do the same to you.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby 20160810 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I would renege, I would explain to them why, I wouldn't offer the name of the firm unless it is a small market, and I would talk to the firm you are accepting and explain to them the situation and the decision you had to make. Do this in order to protect yourself from any potential repercussions, although I highly doubt your original firm is gonna throw you under the bus. They may be pissed, but they probably won't be so unprofessional as to call your new firm.

How big is the summer class of the you are reneging on, and how do you know they historically are <50%? If it is a smaller market firm with only a small handful of SAs, then there may be some legitimate fluctuation. If you think you'd like the first firm better, then make sure you really know your your odds before bailing. Do you know any 3Ls who worked there last year who you could talk to about it?


I know for a fact. I would rather not state exact numbers, but I asked what the offer rate was and they said "we have x amount of clerks and we will only offer x amount." the number puts the % well below 50%...even told me a story about how they had one great SA but couldn't hire him/her because the ones they did hire were phenomenal. It is a very large secondary market, and there are only a small handful of SAs at the firm every summer.

I interviewed with a firm as a 2L that told me they were hiring 9 SAs for "2 or 3" spots. I told him I didn't think those sounded like great odds, and the interviewer replied by asking me why I wasn't "a fighter." Pass.

OP, I think you're justified reneging here, and I am coming to agree with everyone else that you're really under no obligation to tell them what firm you're taking the offer at. An offer rate well below 50% is bullshit, and they know it. If they get pissed, they really have no one but themselves to blame for this.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby kalvano » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:04 am

When I worked in sales, the places that hired a bunch of people, gave them minimal training, and then turned them loose with a "sink or swim" mentality were invariably places that were terrible to work at. The places that hired three people for three open spots and trained everyone and gave them support were great places to work.

Sort of a different industry, but I can't imagine the same principle doesn't apply.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:18 am

Reneg and don't look back.
Is the firm market paying? and on NALP?

I was at a similar firm like the OPs except the interviewer told me they had room for everyone. In the end I didn't get an offer and they only offered 3/6 SAs.

It is really hard to get a job after you have been no offered. Most firms outside the region will just assume that you did a bad job. The only possible firms that would touch you are the ones that know the firm consistantly no offers SAs.

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Always Credited
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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Always Credited » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:25 am

Run awayyyy
Run awayyyy
Run awayyy to save your liiiiiife
Run away if you want to surviiiiiive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_XDH5pg3kc

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:40 am

Good luck OP and keep is posted on how it goes.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:50 am

Thanks everyone for the great advice, I will let you know what I decide to do and how it ends up.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby TheZoid » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:12 pm

This firm will kick you to the curb and not think twice about it or feel bad. You should do the same, and explain to them the reason for doing so, and probably also disclose to the firm you are accepting that you've reneged an old offer because of a poor offer rate from the other firm and that you really like xyz firm.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Borhas » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:34 pm

It's never too late unless you entered into a K.

Also +1 on NOT telling them where you are going instead.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm

I don't really see an issue. I'm sure the firm can find 80 other qualified candidates to fill your spot. In a market like this where employers are at such an advantage, I wouldn't feel bad at all reneging. Which is strange, because I think it would unacceptable for a firm to renege on an offer to an employee.

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Re: For Those of you in the "it's fair to renege" camp...

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:21 pm

Always Credited wrote:Run awayyyy
Run awayyyy
Run awayyy to save your liiiiiife
Run away if you want to surviiiiiive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_XDH5pg3kc

I think Iron Maiden's "Run to the Hills" would be TCR here.




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