Late 2013 Start Date Forum

[Old Gregg]

That's one of my biggest fears re: biglaw. I love traveling. What's the point of making all this $$$ if I can never really go on anything longer than a weekend trip?

Dude. Relax. I know plenty of associates who took 2-3 week vacations.

[Younger Abstention]

That's one of my biggest fears re: biglaw. I love traveling. What's the point of making all this $$$ if I can never really go on anything longer than a weekend trip?

Dude. Relax. I know plenty of associates who took 2-3 week vacations.

This. At my major-market V50, I was told that even first years take a 2 week vacation.

[Sup Kid]

Honestly, if I were you, I wouldn't take a bar trip and I would live with my parents until January. Some good video games are coming out: Baldur's Gate remake, Diablo III, Simcity 5. Just knock 'em out.

Wow that brings back memories

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't worry too much about a January start date. I have a couple 3L friends with offers at lower V100 NYC offices who knew from the get-go that they wouldn't start til early next year. I think it's pretty much become business as usual for many of these places. Certainly shouldn't have much bearing on 2L offer rates. (Disclaimer: I am a 2L so I could be wrong about everything.)

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

I wouldn't worry too much about a January start date. I have a couple 3L friends with offers at lower V100 NYC offices who knew from the get-go that they wouldn't start til early next year. I think it's pretty much become business as usual for many of these places. Certainly shouldn't have much bearing on 2L offer rates. (Disclaimer: I am a 2L so I could be wrong about everything.)

Kinda depends. If the firm has been delaying start dates for like 3 years now (a la Weil), then there's no cause for concern.

If the firm is pushing back start dates for new SAs for the first time, it could be concerning. Especially if you are headed for a southern outpost of that firm where no-offering is much more of a regional norm.

It seems like the situation at K&L could fall into the latter category.

[Anonymous User]

If the firm has been delaying start dates for like 3 years now (a la Weil), then there's no cause for concern.

lol

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't worry too much about a January start date. I have a couple 3L friends with offers at lower V100 NYC offices who knew from the get-go that they wouldn't start til early next year. I think it's pretty much become business as usual for many of these places. Certainly shouldn't have much bearing on 2L offer rates. (Disclaimer: I am a 2L so I could be wrong about everything.)

Kinda depends. If the firm has been delaying start dates for like 3 years now (a la Weil), then there's no cause for concern.

If the firm is pushing back start dates for new SAs for the first time, it could be concerning. Especially if you are headed for a southern outpost of that firm where no-offering is much more of a regional norm.

It seems like the situation at K&L could fall into the latter category.

K&L actually pushed start dates to January two years ago - and September last year. Also, they were at 100% offer rate this past summer, close to it the year before, but pretty bad with rates in heart of ITE.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone with the memo about the deferred start date explain what K&L reasons were? The firm keeps expanding at a quick rate and one would think that if the deferred start was tied to financial troubles, the firm would slow their roll a bit. Until then I will just force myself to believe that this will be the new norm for K&L and reflects little about the firm's health and wont have any negative effect on the summer SAs.

[Anonymous User]

K&L actually pushed start dates to January two years ago - and September last year. Also, they were at 100% offer rate this past summer, close to it the year before, but pretty bad with rates in heart of ITE.

K&L definitely wasn't at 100% offer rates this past year (summer of 2011). I fully expect their NALP sheet to say 100% when it comes out, but I personally know of two people who were SAs at different offices and didn't receive offers.

[Anonymous User]

K&L actually pushed start dates to January two years ago - and September last year. Also, they were at 100% offer rate this past summer, close to it the year before, but pretty bad with rates in heart of ITE.

K&L definitely wasn't at 100% offer rates this past year (summer of 2011). I fully expect their NALP sheet to say 100% when it comes out, but I personally know of two people who were SAs at different offices and didn't receive offers.

Agreed, also know of one person who was no-offered at a small K&L office.

They seem to be pretty full of shit with their NALP stuff. Got an offer from them this fall and was told they needed a response in 3 days. This was during the 1st week of September. When I asked for more time per the 30 day NALP timeframe, they said they would really, really prefer an answer ASAP.

Seemed shady and like a potentially crappy place to work. I'm sure it varies greatly depending on the branch.

[Anonymous User]

K&L actually pushed start dates to January two years ago - and September last year. Also, they were at 100% offer rate this past summer, close to it the year before, but pretty bad with rates in heart of ITE.

K&L definitely wasn't at 100% offer rates this past year (summer of 2011). I fully expect their NALP sheet to say 100% when it comes out, but I personally know of two people who were SAs at different offices and didn't receive offers.

Agreed, also know of one person who was no-offered at a small K&L office.

They seem to be pretty full of shit with their NALP stuff. Got an offer from them this fall and was told they needed a response in 3 days. This was during the 1st week of September. When I asked for more time per the 30 day NALP timeframe, they said they would really, really prefer an answer ASAP.

Seemed shady and like a potentially crappy place to work. I'm sure it varies greatly depending on the branch.

My offer to come in as an SA was pretty similar. They wanted an answer in a "couple of days," and they seemed peeved when I asked for more time under the NALP rules. I ended up taking about half of the NALP time though because I was waiting on other decisions, and they didn't yank the offer or anything (though it wouldn't have surprised me).

I'm interested in the January start date thing too. If it's going to be a common practice going forward, that definitely knocks them down the list a little bit, especially since K&L doesn't always pay market and the other firms I will work with this summer start somewhere between August-October rather than January.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone with the memo about the deferred start date explain what K&L reasons were? The firm keeps expanding at a quick rate and one would think that if the deferred start was tied to financial troubles, the firm would slow their roll a bit. Until then I will just force myself to believe that this will be the new norm for K&L and reflects little about the firm's health and wont have any negative effect on the summer SAs.

The memo didn't mention any reason for the start date. It just stated the date, terms of salary advance, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Do we have any reason to think either way that these deferrals will or won't be the case for people hired after the 2012 summer? Based on what any of you have seen recently, does it seem like January start dates will become a permanent thing?

[LawIdiot86]

Do we have any reason to think either way that these deferrals will or won't be the case for people hired after the 2012 summer? Based on what any of you have seen recently, does it seem like January start dates will become a permanent thing?

In ye grand old days, circa 1990 or even as late as 2000, law was a profession, not a business. Partners didn't lateral from firm to firm and compensation was almost entirely lockstep. Clients paid their bills like good little kids and didn't object to teams of overpriced first years being put on their cases to soak up billable hours. Then people realized law looked like a good job because it didn't seem to obey the normal laws of economics and that they could realize salaries in excess of their actual worth. This led to more law school applicants, which in turn led to law schools realizing they could raise prices given the competition for seats and in further turn led to more law schools being open. At the same time, the increased competition in the commercial sector in general, due to globalization and many other factors made clients less willing to pay their bills like good little kids. They wanted THE expert partner working on THEIR matter and not 20 green associates churning out hours. Expert partners realized they could command larger salaries for their books of business and started jumping ship to non-lock step firms that paid them guaranteed bonuses. If you're paying guaranteed bonuses and can't pass on associates' salaries to clients, you have to start behaving like a business, not a profession. This means fewer associates at above market wages and that you treat those associates as employees, not apprentices you are training for the profession. That's why it's ok to Lathamize (fire) every few years, renege on offers or change the terms of the offers to push back the start date. Also, since it's a business and not a profession, there will be far less homogeneity in firm practices as firms seek to differentiate and gain a competitive advantage based on their business model. This means it will be more difficult to state broad rules like the "Cravath bonus," the "September start date," the "up and out model," etc. It also means firm practices will be more likely to follow economic cycles, meaning if particular firms in the past deferred people when the economy was stagnant or declining, they will be more likely to do so in the future, regardless of past profession-wide practices.

[Anonymous User]

Do we have any reason to think either way that these deferrals will or won't be the case for people hired after the 2012 summer? Based on what any of you have seen recently, does it seem like January start dates will become a permanent thing?

Received a permanent offer as a member of the class of 2013. The start date for this class is also expected to be January (of 2014), so it looks like it is going to be a permanent thing. I know that the firm is bumping up start dates for a few people in the class of 2012 based on need, but it looks like January start dates will be the norm for most people from here on out.

[Old Gregg]

They wanted THE expert partner working on THEIR matter and not 20 green associates churning out hours. Expert partners realized they could command larger salaries for their books of business and started jumping ship to non-lock step firms that paid them guaranteed bonuses.

They don't want partners doing disclosure schedules and signature pages. Companies know that first years have a purpose. More gripes over the amount of first years on a deal than first years doing the work. You're not going to pay $1,000/hour for a partner to do diligence.