Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

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Lord Randolph McDuff
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Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:57 am

I think while the final score of the USNWR can be ridic, the input data can be really helpful/interesting. After all my trolling, I've concluded that employed at graduation is the most meaningful factor to look at. If you get a job while in law school, its easier to credit the law school itself more so than if you get a job 8 months later. So my question is-- is employed at grad as easy to game/lie about/manipulate as employed at nine months?

I would think it would be tough.... if half the students were employed at grad and the school reported 87% cough cough ASU then I would imagine that would get out.

I was going to call UW and ASU out for their 99% employed at nine months stat or whatever it was, but then I saw that they were both like 85% employed at graduation. Are they gaming this? Can you count a barrista job as employed at graduation? Any 3Ls or recent grads can help me out with how the reporting works....?

At first look when I saw the rankings this morning, my reaction was: ha some schools are blatantly lying and some are being punished for playing it strait. I saw that many schools-- Wustl, Hastings, Wake, CU, others are reporting closer to 80% employed nine months out. This is a horrible statistic considering this category isn't limited to the legal field, but 80% feels about accurate for this environment. Even yale reported 91%.... But then you have a school like Tulsa, who has moved up from T4 to T2 in two years, who report over 90% employed at nine months.... Anyway that was my first impression, and I figured ASU and UW were just part of team liars (really starting to ramble now, bear down to the finish).

But can they game the employed at graduation and how?

Ok thanks!

MrAnon
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:12 am

Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.

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sunynp
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby sunynp » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:19 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I think while the final score of the USNWR can be ridic, the input data can be really helpful/interesting. After all my trolling, I've concluded that employed at graduation is the most meaningful factor to look at. If you get a job while in law school, its easier to credit the law school itself more so than if you get a job 8 months later. So my question is-- is employed at grad as easy to game/lie about/manipulate as employed at nine months?

I would think it would be tough.... if half the students were employed at grad and the school reported 87% cough cough ASU then I would imagine that would get out.

I was going to call UW and ASU out for their 99% employed at nine months stat or whatever it was, but then I saw that they were both like 85% employed at graduation. Are they gaming this? Can you count a barrista job as employed at graduation? Any 3Ls or recent grads can help me out with how the reporting works....?

At first look when I saw the rankings this morning, my reaction was: ha some schools are blatantly lying and some are being punished for playing it strait. I saw that many schools-- Wustl, Hastings, Wake, CU, others are reporting closer to 80% employed nine months out. This is a horrible statistic considering this category isn't limited to the legal field, but 80% feels about accurate for this environment. Even yale reported 91%.... But then you have a school like Tulsa, who has moved up from T4 to T2 in two years, who report over 90% employed at nine months.... Anyway that was my first impression, and I figured ASU and UW were just part of team liars (really starting to ramble now, bear down to the finish).

But can they game the employed at graduation and how?

Ok thanks!


Not sure if serious. Have you been paying attention at all?

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:27 am

sunynp wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I think while the final score of the USNWR can be ridic, the input data can be really helpful/interesting. After all my trolling, I've concluded that employed at graduation is the most meaningful factor to look at. If you get a job while in law school, its easier to credit the law school itself more so than if you get a job 8 months later. So my question is-- is employed at grad as easy to game/lie about/manipulate as employed at nine months?

I would think it would be tough.... if half the students were employed at grad and the school reported 87% cough cough ASU then I would imagine that would get out.

I was going to call UW and ASU out for their 99% employed at nine months stat or whatever it was, but then I saw that they were both like 85% employed at graduation. Are they gaming this? Can you count a barrista job as employed at graduation? Any 3Ls or recent grads can help me out with how the reporting works....?

At first look when I saw the rankings this morning, my reaction was: ha some schools are blatantly lying and some are being punished for playing it strait. I saw that many schools-- Wustl, Hastings, Wake, CU, others are reporting closer to 80% employed nine months out. This is a horrible statistic considering this category isn't limited to the legal field, but 80% feels about accurate for this environment. Even yale reported 91%.... But then you have a school like Tulsa, who has moved up from T4 to T2 in two years, who report over 90% employed at nine months.... Anyway that was my first impression, and I figured ASU and UW were just part of team liars (really starting to ramble now, bear down to the finish).

But can they game the employed at graduation and how?

Ok thanks!


Not sure if serious. Have you been paying attention at all?


Yeah I'm asking about gaming at graduation and how they would do it. I know its easy to game 9 months out.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:28 am

MrAnon wrote:Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.


Yeah that is horrible but I'm talking about at graduation. What is Fordham's at graduation employment rate? 65% or so? How can they game that?

in2win
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby in2win » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:49 am

isnt it a common practice for schools to hire new grads temporarily in order to improve that statistic

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minnbills
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby minnbills » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:50 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.


Yeah that is horrible but I'm talking about at graduation. What is Fordham's at graduation employment rate? 65% or so? How can they game that?


Maybe they line up the fellowships before graduation?

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sunynp
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby sunynp » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:05 am

Why would it be any different at graduation than 9 months out? The same criteria and gaming apply. For Fordham and every other school which gives students fellowships, I'm sure those students count as employed at graduation.

Why are you so worried about this?

The employment statistics are gamed. The USNWR rankings are irrelevant.

MrAnon
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:05 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.


Yeah that is horrible but I'm talking about at graduation. What is Fordham's at graduation employment rate? 65% or so? How can they game that?


Same game. Give people school employment in time for graduation.

nouseforaname123
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby nouseforaname123 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:17 am

ASU c/o 2010 placement stats 9 months post graduation as published by their OCS:

http://www.law.asu.edu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=COlw4E3yVXU%3d&tabid=930

Footnote 3: "Includes 20 Government/Public Interest off-campus Post-Graduate Fellowships funded by the Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law."

Total class size of 167.

87.4% reported to USNWR employed at graduation.

167 * .874 = ~150 students employed at graduation.

Unless some of the students in fellowships were employed at graduation and then moved into the fellowship program after graduation, I don't see how the 87.4% at graduation cannot include at least some, if not all, of the 20 grads in the fellowship program.

The ASU stats are weird in another way as well (stay with me on this).

It is not clear whether ASU is using 163, 164, or 167 as the denominator in calculating its "Type of Employment" categories.

163 = # of grads employed 9 months after graduation.
164 = # of grads reported seeking employment 9 months after graduation (3 reported not seeking employment).
167 = total class size.

ASU reports 11% of c/o 2010 employed in public interest at the 9 month mark.

20/163 = 12.2%
20/164 = 12.1%
20/167 = 11.9%

My issues with reporting "11% [in] Public Interest":

1. 11% seems to me to be a very disingenuous way to round the figure (this is a minor quibble).
2. Are we really supposed to believe that every single ASU grad doing public interest work was also a part of the funded fellowship program? There wasn't a single ASU grad that ended up in public interest work that wasn't also involved in the fellowship program? I suppose that ASU could be defining public interest in a very narrow way, but the other job categories wouldn't seem to be the right place to put other public interest, non-fellowship jobs.

MrAnon
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:20 am

nouseforaname123 wrote:ASU c/o 2010 placement stats 9 months post graduation as published by their OCS:

http://www.law.asu.edu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=COlw4E3yVXU%3d&tabid=930

Footnote 3: "Includes 20 Government/Public Interest off-campus Post-Graduate Fellowships funded by the Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law."

Total class size of 167.

87.4% reported to USNWR employed at graduation.

167 * .874 = ~150 students employed at graduation.

Unless some of the students in fellowships were employed at graduation and then moved into the fellowship program after graduation, I don't see how the 87.4% at graduation cannot include at least some, if not all, of the 20 grads in the fellowship program.

The ASU stats are weird in another way as well (stay with me on this).

It is not clear whether ASU is using 163, 164, or 167 as the denominator in calculating its "Type of Employment" categories.

163 = # of grads employed 9 months after graduation.
164 = # of grads reported seeking employment 9 months after graduation (3 reported not seeking employment).
167 = total class size.

ASU reports 11% of c/o 2010 employed in public interest at the 9 month mark.

20/163 = 12.2%
20/164 = 12.1%
20/167 = 11.9%

My issues with reporting "11% [in] Public Interest":

1. 11% seems to me to be a very disingenuous way to round the figure (this is a minor quibble).
2. Are we really supposed to believe that every single ASU grad doing public interest work was also a part of the funded fellowship program? There wasn't a single ASU grad that ended up in public interest work that wasn't also involved in the fellowship program? I suppose that ASU could be defining public interest in a very narrow way, but the other job categories wouldn't seem to be the right place to put other public interest, non-fellowship jobs.


its more than disingenuous. Its a lie.

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splitbrain
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:23 pm

@nouseforaname123

You're touching on the reasons why people want these numbers independently audited.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:18 pm

MrAnon wrote:Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.


I have some familiarity with this, so will comment. First, I think it's awesome that the school is forthcoming about doing this, and I'll explain why I am in favor. Most people who are going to firms know about their employment well in advance of graduation. For public interest, it can work the same way, but only if you are getting a fellowship (Skadden, Equal Justice Works, or similar) or going to a public defender org. or large nonprofit or government office that hires early.

Many nonprofits actually have grants that specify they cannot hire unadmitted attorneys. What this means for you, the PI 2012 graduate, is that the place you want to work may not be able to offer you a job until November 2012 or thereafter. Some schools, including Fordham, pay PI people a stipend for 6 or 12 months, so they can work for a nonprofit and be hired full time post bar passage. At Fordham, this isn't a full time fellowship (though there is one offered for international PI work). I strongly believe all schools should have more full time PI fellowships for new graduates. This is solely a reflection of how the public interest market works-- students from all law schools face the same issues at orgs. that can't hire them until after graduation and/or bar passage, but some schools offer better support during this time period than others do.

EDIT: all schools can and should be 100% forthcoming about how many students are getting school sponsored fellowships, because applicants should have this info.

nouseforaname123
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby nouseforaname123 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:25 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I strongly believe all schools should have more full time PI fellowships for new graduates.


Where are you going to get the money for it? Cut other programs/resources? Raise tuition for everybody so that a school can fund PI fellowships for certain new grads?

I get that at a handful a schools you could probably endow a PI fellowship program, but at that vast majority of schools you would have to raise tuition or cut other resources to fund full time PI fellowships for new graduates.

MrAnon
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:36 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.


I have some familiarity with this, so will comment. First, I think it's awesome that the school is forthcoming about doing this, and I'll explain why I am in favor. Most people who are going to firms know about their employment well in advance of graduation. For public interest, it can work the same way, but only if you are getting a fellowship (Skadden, Equal Justice Works, or similar) or going to a public defender org. or large nonprofit or government office that hires early.

Many nonprofits actually have grants that specify they cannot hire unadmitted attorneys. What this means for you, the PI 2012 graduate, is that the place you want to work may not be able to offer you a job until November 2012 or thereafter. Some schools, including Fordham, pay PI people a stipend for 6 or 12 months, so they can work for a nonprofit and be hired full time post bar passage. At Fordham, this isn't a full time fellowship (though there is one offered for international PI work). I strongly believe all schools should have more full time PI fellowships for new graduates. This is solely a reflection of how the public interest market works-- students from all law schools face the same issues at orgs. that can't hire them until after graduation and/or bar passage, but some schools offer better support during this time period than others do.

EDIT: all schools can and should be 100% forthcoming about how many students are getting school sponsored fellowships, because applicants should have this info.


So, in summary, they do not have permanent jobs or permanent job offers. Is that correct?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:38 pm

nouseforaname123 wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I strongly believe all schools should have more full time PI fellowships for new graduates.


Where are you going to get the money for it? Cut other programs/resources? Raise tuition for everybody so that a school can fund PI fellowships for certain new grads?

I get that at a handful a schools you could probably endow a PI fellowship program, but at that vast majority of schools you would have to raise tuition or cut other resources to fund full time PI fellowships for new graduates.


More fundraising from alumni and donors would be at the top of my list, followed by better resource allocation, especially for schools that advertise how much they care about public interest. And I may be a heretic for saying this, but hiring more practicing attorneys to teach-- I have loved every class I've had with a practicing adjunct. It's also an awesome resource for students when practicing adjuncts recommend students they've worked with for jobs and internships. Schools that really value PI should craft fellowships for new graduates, raising more money and shifting expenditures in ways that directly benefits students and new grads.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:41 pm

MrAnon wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Fordham (the school) "employs" 1 out of every 7 graduates NINE MONTHS after graduation and counts them towards its totals.


I have some familiarity with this, so will comment. First, I think it's awesome that the school is forthcoming about doing this, and I'll explain why I am in favor. Most people who are going to firms know about their employment well in advance of graduation. For public interest, it can work the same way, but only if you are getting a fellowship (Skadden, Equal Justice Works, or similar) or going to a public defender org. or large nonprofit or government office that hires early.

Many nonprofits actually have grants that specify they cannot hire unadmitted attorneys. What this means for you, the PI 2012 graduate, is that the place you want to work may not be able to offer you a job until November 2012 or thereafter. Some schools, including Fordham, pay PI people a stipend for 6 or 12 months, so they can work for a nonprofit and be hired full time post bar passage. At Fordham, this isn't a full time fellowship (though there is one offered for international PI work). I strongly believe all schools should have more full time PI fellowships for new graduates. This is solely a reflection of how the public interest market works-- students from all law schools face the same issues at orgs. that can't hire them until after graduation and/or bar passage, but some schools offer better support during this time period than others do.

EDIT: all schools can and should be 100% forthcoming about how many students are getting school sponsored fellowships, because applicants should have this info.


So, in summary, they do not have permanent jobs or permanent job offers. Is that correct?


Yes, a good portion of people going into PI are not employed at graduation unless they get a school fellowship. Exceptions for those with outside fellowships, certain gov't jobs (DOJ, etc) and working at large orgs. that happen to hire early.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:46 pm

Employed at Graduation is easy to game not simply by including people on fellowships, but by excluding people who are unemployed. USNWR (and most schools) don't give the sample size that number is based on. Many schools encourage people to fill out a survey when they get a job. A school can simply avoid contacting people it knows don't have a job and make the survey sample biased.

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sunynp
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby sunynp » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:49 pm

All schools hire people on fellowships to up their numbers of employed grads. It is just that a few schools have admitted how many students they have on their payroll for a few months.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:56 pm

sunynp wrote:All schools hire people on fellowships to up their numbers of employed grads. It is just that a few schools have admitted how many students they have on their payroll for a few months.


This varies. I'm not going to claim all. People also should check how long these fellowships last, and if the school has the coveted gold standard, year-long full time PI fellowships for new grads. I think we have one or two such. A few schools have a substantial number. These actually materially help PI students as opposed to only raising the school's numbers.

MrAnon
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:53 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
sunynp wrote:All schools hire people on fellowships to up their numbers of employed grads. It is just that a few schools have admitted how many students they have on their payroll for a few months.


This varies. I'm not going to claim all. People also should check how long these fellowships last, and if the school has the coveted gold standard, year-long full time PI fellowships for new grads. I think we have one or two such. A few schools have a substantial number. These actually materially help PI students as opposed to only raising the school's numbers.


So out of the 60+ students Fordham is hiring are only 1 or 2 getting this full year funding? Or are you saying there are 1 or 2 fellowships and they apply to several students each.

Anonymous User
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:47 pm

It seems like most of these schools are reporting that almost 100 percent of their class filled out the post-grad survey. How is that even possible? Or am I reading the stats incorrectly?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:59 pm

MrAnon wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
sunynp wrote:All schools hire people on fellowships to up their numbers of employed grads. It is just that a few schools have admitted how many students they have on their payroll for a few months.


This varies. I'm not going to claim all. People also should check how long these fellowships last, and if the school has the coveted gold standard, year-long full time PI fellowships for new grads. I think we have one or two such. A few schools have a substantial number. These actually materially help PI students as opposed to only raising the school's numbers.


So out of the 60+ students Fordham is hiring are only 1 or 2 getting this full year funding? Or are you saying there are 1 or 2 fellowships and they apply to several students each.


I am not sure how many students get funded full time for a year, though the number is small. It may change from year to year, and we haven't had the fellowship announcement for this year. I do know most of the domestic PI fellowships have been for 3 months initially, and people can extend to 6 months.

The most important thing is to have full time fellowships that pay enough for people to live on, and Fordham needs to have more of them if it really wants to be a strong PI school. This is what T14s commonly do-- it's a money issue, as you can guess. I am satisfied that Fordham reported them for its graduation statistics, instead of hiding behind high numbers. Every school needs to disclose.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It seems like most of these schools are reporting that almost 100 percent of their class filled out the post-grad survey. How is that even possible? Or am I reading the stats incorrectly?


At our school, we must report or no graduation tickets.

keg411
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Re: Employed at Graduation: Easy to Game?

Postby keg411 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:02 pm

I think the student-funded fellowships are good for actual unemployed grads to the extent that the old adage "it's easier to get a job if you have a job" is 100% true for pretty much every field. However, I disagree that temporary employment like this should count as "employed" for USNWR/statistical purposes and I pretty much agree that it's disingenuous at best and lying at worst. Temporary positions and certain types of non-legal positions should 100% not count as "employed".




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