Law Review AND Moot Court

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bns_77
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby bns_77 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:I go to Hastings (#1 moot court team) and I can assure you that winning a competition, much less being on moot court, does not matter whatsoever in terms of job prospects.



bzzzzt. Wrong.

Pretty much every OCI employer asked for law review OR moot court. While there's a general overvaluing of the law review credential in legal recruitment (I will not deny that, in the eyes of employers, it's more valuable than moot court), employers ARE interested to see moot court experience and do ask about it quite a bit in interviews.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:16 am

bns_77 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I go to Hastings (#1 moot court team) and I can assure you that winning a competition, much less being on moot court, does not matter whatsoever in terms of job prospects.



bzzzzt. Wrong.

Pretty much every OCI employer asked for law review OR moot court. While there's a general overvaluing of the law review credential in legal recruitment (I will not deny that, in the eyes of employers, it's more valuable than moot court), employers ARE interested to see moot court experience and do ask about it quite a bit in interviews.


bzzzzt even more wrong.

Moot court teaches you oral advocacy skills, but its an appellate advocacy contest. It is entirely irrelevant to what you will do at a bigfirm unless you are going to do appellate work (even then you won't be arguing a case for a longggg time). Moot court may help for DA appellate jobs and the like, but seriously it you have LR, moot court is really a waste of time IMO unless you really enjoy it. If you love it, its worth doing. 20 years from now, you will still have law review on your firm, but partners typically don't put "moot court participant" on their profile.

Employers will ask about moot court if you have it, but it doesn't mean its important. Interviewers will ask about your hobbies, etc. but it doesn't mean that your hobbies will make or break you.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:27 am

Emma. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Glock wrote:Flagship Law review >>>>>>>>>>>>> secondary journal >>>>>> winning a moot court competition >>>> being on a moot court honor board >>>>> other clubs.


Actually winning a competition looks good and gives you a slight edge over similarly ranked people.


I go to Hastings (#1 moot court team) and I can assure you that winning a competition, much less being on moot court, does not matter whatsoever in terms of job prospects.

That said, I think it's a good skill to learn.


TBF, Law Review isn't much help either: 71 U Chi L Rev 1721

pre-ITE; didn't read.

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bns_77
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby bns_77 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:45 am

Blindmelon wrote:
bns_77 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I go to Hastings (#1 moot court team) and I can assure you that winning a competition, much less being on moot court, does not matter whatsoever in terms of job prospects.



bzzzzt. Wrong.

Pretty much every OCI employer asked for law review OR moot court. While there's a general overvaluing of the law review credential in legal recruitment (I will not deny that, in the eyes of employers, it's more valuable than moot court), employers ARE interested to see moot court experience and do ask about it quite a bit in interviews.


bzzzzt even more wrong.

Moot court teaches you oral advocacy skills, but its an appellate advocacy contest. It is entirely irrelevant to what you will do at a bigfirm unless you are going to do appellate work (even then you won't be arguing a case for a longggg time). Moot court may help for DA appellate jobs and the like, but seriously it you have LR, moot court is really a waste of time IMO unless you really enjoy it. If you love it, its worth doing. 20 years from now, you will still have law review on your firm, but partners typically don't put "moot court participant" on their profile.

Employers will ask about moot court if you have it, but it doesn't mean its important. Interviewers will ask about your hobbies, etc. but it doesn't mean that your hobbies will make or break you.


Appellate advocacy skills aren't only relevant in the appellate setting. It's reading, persuasive writing, and speaking in front of the tribunal. Skills that, y'know, are somewhat relevant to the practice of law and something that firms of all sizes care about.

I already conceded that firms find LR more important. Whether that's justified or not is a different story (Oh, you checked citations and wrote an unpublished note!! You must be a LAW GENIUS!!!). I was more responding to the assertion that moot court does nothing whatsoever for your employment prospects... that's just a patently bullshit assertion. And I know from experience.

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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:30 pm

bns_77 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I go to Hastings (#1 moot court team) and I can assure you that winning a competition, much less being on moot court, does not matter whatsoever in terms of job prospects.



bzzzzt. Wrong.

Pretty much every OCI employer asked for law review OR moot court. While there's a general overvaluing of the law review credential in legal recruitment (I will not deny that, in the eyes of employers, it's more valuable than moot court), employers ARE interested to see moot court experience and do ask about it quite a bit in interviews.


Mooter here. I've had a very different experience from you. (Also, how can any OCI interviewer ask about moot court aside from the very few schools who have it as 1Ls?) I was a finalist and brief award winner in my competition and in only one (of dozens) of interviews was I asked about the experience, and it was from someone who did moot court and just asked "Did you have fun/did you like it?" Nothing else. I don't know anyone whose moot court experience has helped them in employment, but that might just be my school.

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bns_77
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby bns_77 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mooter here. I've had a very different experience from you. (Also, how can any OCI interviewer ask about moot court aside from the very few schools who have it as 1Ls?) I was a finalist and brief award winner in my competition and in only one (of dozens) of interviews was I asked about the experience, and it was from someone who did moot court and just asked "Did you have fun/did you like it?" Nothing else. I don't know anyone whose moot court experience has helped them in employment, but that might just be my school.


Our school has an intra-school moot competition as 1Ls that gets you onto the main moot court team. So those that did well had a line on their resumes about it. Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview. And yes, some of the moot court only people got callbacks.

And I'm sure everyone has different interview experiences. I was on some where it was hardly discussed (if at all) and I had others where there was extensive questions about the problem, the side I was on, how valid I thought the arguments were, etc... For those, I had to straight up go into "please the court" mode to answer. Gotta say those skills helped at least a little bit.

It also helped when one of the hiring partners I interviewed with was a former member of my school's moot court team.

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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:00 am

bns_77 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Mooter here. I've had a very different experience from you. (Also, how can any OCI interviewer ask about moot court aside from the very few schools who have it as 1Ls?) I was a finalist and brief award winner in my competition and in only one (of dozens) of interviews was I asked about the experience, and it was from someone who did moot court and just asked "Did you have fun/did you like it?" Nothing else. I don't know anyone whose moot court experience has helped them in employment, but that might just be my school.


Our school has an intra-school moot competition as 1Ls that gets you onto the main moot court team. So those that did well had a line on their resumes about it. Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview. And yes, some of the moot court only people got callbacks.

And I'm sure everyone has different interview experiences. I was on some where it was hardly discussed (if at all) and I had others where there was extensive questions about the problem, the side I was on, how valid I thought the arguments were, etc... For those, I had to straight up go into "please the court" mode to answer. Gotta say those skills helped at least a little bit.

It also helped when one of the hiring partners I interviewed with was a former member of my school's moot court team.


Well, like I said, it seems like peoples' experiences differ a lot.

Anyway, I should also point out that I totally agree MC is obviously valuable for oral skills. Although it's pretty artificial, it does help you gain the ability to talk and control the flow of a conversation, which is very important in the courtroom, needless to say. I also found it really fun, so I'd recommend those interested to do it. Plus, getting a free trip on the school's dime is pretty sweet.

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Glock
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Glock » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:52 pm

bns_77 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Mooter here. I've had a very different experience from you. (Also, how can any OCI interviewer ask about moot court aside from the very few schools who have it as 1Ls?) I was a finalist and brief award winner in my competition and in only one (of dozens) of interviews was I asked about the experience, and it was from someone who did moot court and just asked "Did you have fun/did you like it?" Nothing else. I don't know anyone whose moot court experience has helped them in employment, but that might just be my school.


Our school has an intra-school moot competition as 1Ls that gets you onto the main moot court team. So those that did well had a line on their resumes about it. Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview. And yes, some of the moot court only people got callbacks.



I mostly agree with this post, but it is worth noting that LR OR moot court does not make them equal. Law review is still vastly superior in almost all employers eyes. But LR + moot court can be better than just LR, and moot court is better than nothing.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:08 pm

bns_77 wrote:Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview.


I agree that some firms like people to be doing SOMETHING besides just law school--and that usually comes down to journal or moot court/mock trial. But please don't rely on what a firm posts as it's pre-reqs for an interview. Maybe they are accurate some of the time, but to take them at their word is just gullible (just think of how accurate the grade ranges are--from my experience they're typically not too accurate and if you base your bidding off them then you might be in trouble).

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bns_77
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby bns_77 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:29 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
bns_77 wrote:Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview.


I agree that some firms like people to be doing SOMETHING besides just law school--and that usually comes down to journal or moot court/mock trial. But please don't rely on what a firm posts as it's pre-reqs for an interview. Maybe they are accurate some of the time, but to take them at their word is just gullible (just think of how accurate the grade ranges are--from my experience they're typically not too accurate and if you base your bidding off them then you might be in trouble).


It matters when it comes to bidding. For our OCI, if a firm wanted LR or moot court and you had neither, you couldn't bid. If you had one or the other, you could bid.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a prereq. I've already discussed the preference for LR... as silly as it is.

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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby de5igual » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:40 pm

bns_77 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
bns_77 wrote:Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview.


I agree that some firms like people to be doing SOMETHING besides just law school--and that usually comes down to journal or moot court/mock trial. But please don't rely on what a firm posts as it's pre-reqs for an interview. Maybe they are accurate some of the time, but to take them at their word is just gullible (just think of how accurate the grade ranges are--from my experience they're typically not too accurate and if you base your bidding off them then you might be in trouble).


It matters when it comes to bidding. For our OCI, if a firm wanted LR or moot court and you had neither, you couldn't bid. If you had one or the other, you could bid.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a prereq. I've already discussed the preference for LR... as silly as it is.


that's harsh. i never knew CSO could block people from bidding or submitting apps.

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Glock
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Glock » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:30 pm

f0bolous wrote:
that's harsh. i never knew CSO could block people from bidding or submitting apps.



I've seen that ad mid-tier one and lower. They don't want firms getting spammed with applications they will never accept. The theory is that it reduces the chances that a student from the school will get a job there period.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:59 pm

bns_77 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
bns_77 wrote:Like I said before, pretty much every OCI employer asked for LR OR moot court. So it's hard to say that it does NOTHING when it was actually a pre-req for the interview.


I agree that some firms like people to be doing SOMETHING besides just law school--and that usually comes down to journal or moot court/mock trial. But please don't rely on what a firm posts as it's pre-reqs for an interview. Maybe they are accurate some of the time, but to take them at their word is just gullible (just think of how accurate the grade ranges are--from my experience they're typically not too accurate and if you base your bidding off them then you might be in trouble).


It matters when it comes to bidding. For our OCI, if a firm wanted LR or moot court and you had neither, you couldn't bid. If you had one or the other, you could bid.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a prereq. I've already discussed the preference for LR... as silly as it is.


Wow, your school grants firms way more respect than I thought was necessary. I know firms who listed LR on their requirements who hired non-LR ppl, and I think at least one firm put LR AND moot court as a requirement...and I sincerely doubt that they stuck by that. Some firms put grades ranges that were higher than the students they could prob get and some firms put grade ranges that were too low for what they were probably going to hire. I basically didn't use the listed numbers/activities when I was bidding bc you can get better info from talking to ppl and doing research online.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:03 pm

Glock wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
that's harsh. i never knew CSO could block people from bidding or submitting apps.



I've seen that ad mid-tier one and lower. They don't want firms getting spammed with applications they will never accept. The theory is that it reduces the chances that a student from the school will get a job there period.


I would think doing this would create more a feast or famine type of scenario where all the top people are being chased by all the firms that go to OCI and it screws over the people that might have slipped into a job because of interviewing ability or having an interesting background/work experience.

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bns_77
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby bns_77 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:06 pm

Interesting. I'm not sure if CSO could actually nix a bid or not if you didn't have the requirements... Maybe we all just followed the honor system.

So are you saying that if a firm wanted Top 7% or higher, you could still bid as an 11+% and still possibly get the interview or at least not get bitchslapped by your advisor?

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Glock
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Glock » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:45 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Glock wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
that's harsh. i never knew CSO could block people from bidding or submitting apps.



I've seen that ad mid-tier one and lower. They don't want firms getting spammed with applications they will never accept. The theory is that it reduces the chances that a student from the school will get a job there period.


I would think doing this would create more a feast or famine type of scenario where all the top people are being chased by all the firms that go to OCI and it screws over the people that might have slipped into a job because of interviewing ability or having an interesting background/work experience.



Think schools that might get 4-15 people employed through 2L OCI. Each student is competing with students from other schools, and there is no guarantee that the firms will even take somebody from the particular school. Larding the interviews with people they will NEVER take just reduces opportunities for viable candidates. I think these schools should just go with 100% preselect.

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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:47 pm

Jessuf wrote:Law review is obviously way more important than moot court. I think moot court or trial team are only good for people who don't get law review. I'd rather spend my time focusing on grades, OCI, law review, note/comment, and maybe an e-board position. Otherwise, employers will be like, 'Wow. Congratulations on losing in the second round to another T3/T4 school in a useless international law moot court competition. I am so impressed."

WITH THAT SAID, you go to a T3. So maybe the combo is actually a plus at OCI?? I feel like T1/T2 schools see stuff like moot court and trial team as a joke and don't take it seriously, so the kinds of employers at OCI at those schools could care less about moot court.


TITCR.

Though the lit firm I'll be working at did tell me to go for Moot Court.

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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby de5igual » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:58 pm

bns_77 wrote:Interesting. I'm not sure if CSO could actually nix a bid or not if you didn't have the requirements... Maybe we all just followed the honor system.

So are you saying that if a firm wanted Top 7% or higher, you could still bid as an 11+% and still possibly get the interview or at least not get bitchslapped by your advisor?


CSO has no say in how you bid other than capping your bid numbers at most (or I guess many) schools. Most firms list "requirements" or "suggestions" for grade cut-offs, but they're largely meaningless.

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bns_77
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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby bns_77 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:06 am

f0bolous wrote:
bns_77 wrote:Interesting. I'm not sure if CSO could actually nix a bid or not if you didn't have the requirements... Maybe we all just followed the honor system.

So are you saying that if a firm wanted Top 7% or higher, you could still bid as an 11+% and still possibly get the interview or at least not get bitchslapped by your advisor?


CSO has no say in how you bid other than capping your bid numbers at most (or I guess many) schools. Most firms list "requirements" or "suggestions" for grade cut-offs, but they're largely meaningless.


Good thing to know a year and a half after the fact...

I think I only passed on one bid because of some onerous class-rank requirement.

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Re: Law Review AND Moot Court

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:07 am

bns_77 wrote:Interesting. I'm not sure if CSO could actually nix a bid or not if you didn't have the requirements... Maybe we all just followed the honor system.

So are you saying that if a firm wanted Top 7% or higher, you could still bid as an 11+% and still possibly get the interview or at least not get bitchslapped by your advisor?


thesealocust wrote:A wise and insightful person once wrote:

PSA - when a firm lists its GPA preference and requirements, you should do the following: Ignore them entirely and mother fucking ask career services.

Firms lie through their god damned teeth on those things, and I want to keep harping on it, because it is VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR CAREER PROSPECTS. The firms are lying or naive or outsourcing their symplicity profiles to India or who knows what, but if you ask a 3 year old with a box of crayons to draw you the cut off for a firm you'll get a better answer than the firm's published cutoff on your OCI software.

Firms aren't consistently high, or consistently low - they're just consistently full of shit. A firm that says "top third required" might hire to median, it might hire from the top 3% without exception, and there's even a remote chance it will hire from the top third. But those pieces of data simply cannot be relied upon at all. Not even in a cursory way. Not for comparison's sake, not when nothing else will do. You need to completely disregard them, and beg/borrow/steal data from career services. Your (and that's the royal 'your' for everyone out there reading in paranoid law student land) career depends on it.




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