Ready to just give up.

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azntwice
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby azntwice » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:00 am

InGoodFaith wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:seriously, doesn't it have legal consequences?


At will employment, derp.


Actually, and to the 0L, there should be legal consequences, especially given that OP had turned down other offers. We all learned about it in first year contracts. It starts with "r" and ends with -eliance.

Anyway OP, try to contact the firms whose offers you turned down. If that fails, try to get a clerkship out of 3L year. With top 20% grades you should be able to at least get a state judge.

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20130312
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:09 am

azntwice wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:seriously, doesn't it have legal consequences?


At will employment, derp.


Actually, and to the 0L, there should be legal consequences, especially given that OP had turned down other offers. We all learned about it in first year contracts. It starts with "r" and ends with -eliance.

Anyway OP, try to contact the firms whose offers you turned down. If that fails, try to get a clerkship out of 3L year. With top 20% grades you should be able to at least get a state judge.


It starts with "no" and ends with "contract".

ETA: And if I hear the word "promissory" start to slip out of your mouth, I will throw my shoe at you.

azntwice
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby azntwice » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:20 am

actually, there was a contract. pretty sure firms make you sign a contract to accept their offer of summer employment. of course, the contract states that employment is at will, and it depends on what state you're in, but the fact remains that there was the firm's offer, OP's acceptance, and consideration on both sides (OP agrees not to accept another firm's offer and firm agrees not to hire other students for the same position). and in any case, OP relied by turning down other job offers.

also OP, if you can possibly swing it, offer to work for free at a law firm this summer. call it a "summer associate" position on your resume so that it at least looks like you HAD a summer associate job, and then go through 3L OCI.

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kings84_wr
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby kings84_wr » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:25 am

azntwice wrote:actually, there was a contract. pretty sure firms make you sign a contract to accept their offer of summer employment. of course, the contract states that employment is at will, and it depends on what state you're in, but the fact remains that there was the firm's offer, OP's acceptance, and consideration on both sides (OP agrees not to accept another firm's offer and firm agrees not to hire other students for the same position). and in any case, OP relied by turning down other job offers.

also OP, if you can possibly swing it, offer to work for free at a law firm this summer. call it a "summer associate" position on your resume so that it at least looks like you HAD a summer associate job, and then go through 3L OCI.


The party has to reasonably rely. Its not reasonable to rely on an at-will position. thats the whole point of At-will employment. The employer can terminate for almost any reason. Most court hold relying on an at-will offer unreasonable per se.

I'm also sure the contract included all types of information regarding this exact issue.

Anonymous User
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:41 am

OP here.

We had 3 SA's total and its a midsize firm in a secondary market so thats why outing it would not be great for me. If this was a NLJ firm with 10+ SA's I would have had this on ATL by now.

I have reached out to all firms I rejected at OCI and the have nicely told me they filled up their slots. Government route may be the way to go at this point. I'll post on here once I find something else, career services has been fairly unhelpful and basically told me they post firms on symplicity once in a while and I should look to those. Honestly I think career services is so scared of the market and so desperate to get firms to interview that they dont care that this happened cause they would rather have this firm come back to interview next year.

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sunynp
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby sunynp » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

We had 3 SA's total and its a midsize firm in a secondary market so thats why outing it would not be great for me. If this was a NLJ firm with 10+ SA's I would have had this on ATL by now.

I have reached out to all firms I rejected at OCI and the have nicely told me they filled up their slots. Government route may be the way to go at this point. I'll post on here once I find something else, career services has been fairly unhelpful and basically told me they post firms on symplicity once in a while and I should look to those. Honestly I think career services is so scared of the market and so desperate to get firms to interview that they dont care that this happened cause they would rather have this firm come back to interview next year.

I know it may not seem like it, but you are so much better off finding out now. Getting lathamed as a 1 L would mean you might never find a job in law. You still have time. Even if firms you rejected are full, can you get an interview with them next fall? I guess that any job is better than nothing for the summer. If you can't get a firm job, then keep going on the clerkship angle.

You career services sound as useless as every other schools. There is no way they should be putting anyone in this position again. Why would anyone want to take a chance on a firm who is having so much trouble paying bills that they cancelled a class of three people. That firm is not going to be back on it's feet for at least a few years.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:09 am

sunynp wrote:You career services sound as useless as every other schools. There is no way they should be putting anyone in this position again. Why would anyone want to take a chance on a firm who is having so much trouble paying bills that they cancelled a class of three people. That firm is not going to be back on it's feet for at least a few years.


Friend from another school got an offer from a small-ish boutique firm he summered at as a 2L and who had a partner as a prof at his school. It paid well below market and he took it. Last month the firm let him know the climate had changed and they had to rescind the offer. He's screwed and scrambling and the school doesn't seem to care in the least it was one of its own faculty who did the screwing.

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2LsAPlenty
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:39 am

Let's face it, firms are a business and if they lost revenue, the SAs positions are the first to go. The timing sucks and I don't like the cavalier attitude, but you have to move on.

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jessuf
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby jessuf » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:51 am

2LsAPlenty wrote:Let's face it, firms are a business and if they lost revenue, the SAs positions are the first to go. The timing sucks and I don't like the cavalier attitude, but you have to move on.



This. I received an offer after undergrad to work with a big consulting firm. My offer was rescinded a week before I was scheduled to move to the new city. HR said that though they loved me and wanted me on board, company-wide cuts had forced them to lay off junior employees or people with offers, such as myself, as it made more sense to save the more experienced employees. It really sucked, but that's how businesses work. I had to scramble to find a job in my hometown and ended up finding something about a month and a half later. If I were further established in a firm, I would be livid if I were cut before a 2L SA, so I understand the firm's position.

Better to find out now than right after you graduate!

keg411
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby keg411 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:18 pm

2LsAPlenty wrote:Let's face it, firms are a business and if they lost revenue, the SAs positions are the first to go. The timing sucks and I don't like the cavalier attitude, but you have to move on.


Obviously OP has to move on, but the difference in the career outcomes for someone with a 2L SA as opposed to someone without a 2L SA can go from being a six-figure salary and employment on graduation to the possibility never having a real legal career (including contract work/doc review).

OP, also, what you're career services office is doing is awful. If anything at least out your TTT school that won't help you out or protect you. I don't care how "scared" they are with the economy or not.

2LLLL
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby 2LLLL » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:43 pm

It starts with "no" and ends with "contract".

ETA: And if I hear the word "promissory" start to slip out of your mouth, I will throw my shoe at you.




Promissory estoppel has little to no existence in the real world outside of 1L Contracts exams... Basically the court is always going to find some way to say that reliance wasn't reasonable, especially when the K is terminable at will as it is here

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cantaboot
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby cantaboot » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:53 pm

vulnerable employees...

so, should students secure as many offers as possible and wait till the start date of their no 1 firm before ditching the others?

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20130312
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:59 pm

2LLLL wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:It starts with "no" and ends with "contract".

ETA: And if I hear the word "promissory" start to slip out of your mouth, I will throw my shoe at you.




Promissory estoppel has little to no existence in the real world outside of 1L Contracts exams... Basically the court is always going to find some way to say that reliance wasn't reasonable, especially when the K is terminable at will as it is here


Yup. Even judges throw shoes when they hear promissory estoppel.

azntwice
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby azntwice » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:27 pm

cantaboot wrote:vulnerable employees...

so, should students secure as many offers as possible and wait till the start date of their no 1 firm before ditching the others?



yeah it depends on the state. NY K law probably would hold it unenforceable, but CA law and probably a few other states, more questionable. also there's probably implied contracts from past course of conduct, especially as OCI programs have become so institutionalized at law schools across the country.

just saying. of course no one is going to actually sue.

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monkey85
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby monkey85 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:36 pm

cantaboot wrote:vulnerable employees...

so, should students secure as many offers as possible and wait till the start date of their no 1 firm before ditching the others?


I wish. We all wish.

Offers "explode" - they all have acceptance dates, far in advance of the actual summer start date. You don't have the opportunity to hold onto them for that long.

seatown12
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby seatown12 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:37 pm

OP if you had the qualifications to get firm offers in the first place I'd think you'd be in a good spot to do it again. It seems like a person in your situation is exactly who firms would be looking for at 3L OCI. I agree with the suggestion to see if you can line up interviews with those other firms in the fall, while looking for whatever you can for this summer.

Do you already have the letter of rec from the firm? If so just out that firm, and then when dealing with other employers give them the letter and tell them exactly what happened. It will be clear that the firm thought you were a great candidate, and anything bad they have to say will be due only to your exposing their shadiness.

Also, this type of shit is why law students should NOT just do what career services says and should NOT feel any hesitancy or regret about reneging if they get better offers.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:03 am

monkey85 wrote:
cantaboot wrote:vulnerable employees...

so, should students secure as many offers as possible and wait till the start date of their no 1 firm before ditching the others?


I wish. We all wish.

Offers "explode" - they all have acceptance dates, far in advance of the actual summer start date. You don't have the opportunity to hold onto them for that long.


I think he meant accepting many offers and then ditching the firms they don't like right before they start with the firm they do like. This would be grossly unacceptable given current employment expectations and the current process of recruiting, but I understand it occurs fairly frequently in other industries. Law firms would need to get off the current model of OCI as the sole recruiting season and instead recruit continuously, knowing that many hires would later renege before starting. Also, they would have to shorten the absurd 9 month lead time between offer/acceptance and start date (I see Quinn on ATL wants to extend it to 14 months from 9!)

Eco
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby Eco » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:30 pm

Tell us what firm it is and aren't they violating NALP rules or something?

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kjadkins
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby kjadkins » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:20 pm

Eco wrote:Tell us what firm it is and aren't they violating NALP rules or something?


As far as I know there is no NALP rule against this. I think they even have a page on their website about how to let people down gently when you have to rescind their offer.

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reformed calvinist
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby reformed calvinist » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:31 pm

azntwice wrote:
cantaboot wrote:vulnerable employees...

so, should students secure as many offers as possible and wait till the start date of their no 1 firm before ditching the others?



yeah it depends on the state. NY K law probably would hold it unenforceable, but CA law and probably a few other states, more questionable. also there's probably implied contracts from past course of conduct, especially as OCI programs have become so institutionalized at law schools across the country.

just saying. of course no one is going to actually sue.


what are the consequences of suing a potential employer? I assume no firm would want to hire you if they found out.

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ggocat
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Re: Ready to just give up.

Postby ggocat » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:13 pm

azntwice wrote:actually, there was a contract. pretty sure firms make you sign a contract to accept their offer of summer employment. of course, the contract states that employment is at will, and it depends on what state you're in, but the fact remains that there was the firm's offer, OP's acceptance, and consideration on both sides (OP agrees not to accept another firm's offer and firm agrees not to hire other students for the same position). and in any case, OP relied by turning down other job offers.

Of course the bolded, but I'd be surprised to see any court hold that a promise for at-will employment was not an illusory promise, thus no consideration, thus no K.

edit: also, OP out the firm.




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