How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

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Anonymous User
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 07, 2012 8:56 pm

where do you guys find information about bonuses? Is it purely word of mouth or are these published along with associate salaries?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon May 07, 2012 8:58 pm

rayiner wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Just pointing out that it's ironic to accuse Cahill of having some false sense of superiority when the poster is displaying said sense in that accusation.

Cahill is just undersubscribed because of the steady and inevitable string of law students who slavishly follow vault rankings. Otherwise, it's a fine firm. Far be it for them to uses their compensation record to try to be a little more selective.

Maybe so, but whether it's for good or bad reasons it sounds like the firm did overestimate how desirable they are as a place to work. Everyone knows Cahill pays bigger bonuses than most of the V10, and most nonetheless go to the V10 instead. That's nice for Cahill if they think their bigger bonuses should make top students overlook their bad attitudes and lower Vault ranking, but when it turns out they don't, it's hard to call the firm's sense of superiority anything other than "false."


I don't think you can conclude that at all. Even very popular firms lose a bunch of people after each summer to clerkships, other firms through 3L OCI, etc. CSM, DPW, S&C were all looking for 3L's this year at NU, and one of those called up folks who had turned down their offers and asked if they wanted to reconsider. It's absolutely NBD for Cahill to have a few spots to fill in the incoming class.

Yeah this is true. I also recall that the list of incoming SAs at Cahill was striking for having a lot of people from lower-ranked schools. Maybe they are just unlike the big V10 NYC firms because they'd rather take someone from the top 10% at a place like William & Mary than the top 1/3 CCN people V10 firms offer en masse. I can't say that would be an irrational approach.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby shoeshine » Mon May 07, 2012 8:59 pm

I was talking to a 2L that was supposed to summer at Dewey and she was completely blindsided by the cancellation of the summer program a couple weeks ago.

I asked her why she hadn't read about Dewey's problems on ATL or TLS and she said she had stopped reading both of those sites because she was a 2L with a secure job so she no longer cared. :shock:

Now she is scrambling to find an SA spot elsewhere but it does not look good for her.

This taught me two valuable lessons:
1. Our CSO sucks for not staying on top of this and warning her sooner.
2. I will never stop reading ATL and to a lesser extent TLS.

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sundance95
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby sundance95 » Mon May 07, 2012 9:01 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Not if the obsession with Vault rankings is equally (if not more) ridiculous than an obsession with marginally larger bonuses.


Bonuses at Cahill were significantly larger, IIRC. I'd take that above almost any market-paying firm. But that's just me.

Agreed, although I'd bet the per hour margin is a lot less than one might guess. But personally I'm with you: I'd choose a firm that wanted to pay me more ahead of one that is ranked higher in a largely meaningless and NYC-centric ranking system, other factors being roughly equal. I can internalize more money much easier than 'prestige', but that's just me.

But I'd rank a firm that gets quality work, pays less per hour than market, but only requires 1800 billables (and means it) over either of the first two options.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby keg411 » Mon May 07, 2012 9:08 pm

sundance95 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Not if the obsession with Vault rankings is equally (if not more) ridiculous than an obsession with marginally larger bonuses.


Bonuses at Cahill were significantly larger, IIRC. I'd take that above almost any market-paying firm. But that's just me.

Agreed, although I'd bet the per hour margin is a lot less than one might guess. But personally I'm with you: I'd choose a firm that wanted to pay me more ahead of one that is ranked higher in a largely meaningless and NYC-centric ranking system, other factors being roughly equal. I can internalize more money much easier than 'prestige', but that's just me.

But I'd rank a firm that gets quality work, pays less per hour than market, but only requires 1800 billables (and means it) over either of the first two options.


Chasing after that is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... it doesn't exist.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby sundance95 » Mon May 07, 2012 9:10 pm

keg411 wrote:
sundance95 wrote:But I'd rank a firm that gets quality work, pays less per hour than market, but only requires 1800 billables (and means it) over either of the first two options.


Chasing after that is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... it doesn't exist.

I know. :cry:

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby shoeshine » Mon May 07, 2012 9:14 pm

keg411 wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Not if the obsession with Vault rankings is equally (if not more) ridiculous than an obsession with marginally larger bonuses.


Bonuses at Cahill were significantly larger, IIRC. I'd take that above almost any market-paying firm. But that's just me.

Agreed, although I'd bet the per hour margin is a lot less than one might guess. But personally I'm with you: I'd choose a firm that wanted to pay me more ahead of one that is ranked higher in a largely meaningless and NYC-centric ranking system, other factors being roughly equal. I can internalize more money much easier than 'prestige', but that's just me.

But I'd rank a firm that gets quality work, pays less per hour than market, but only requires 1800 billables (and means it) over either of the first two options.


Chasing after that is like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... it doesn't exist.

This exists in a ton of secondary markets. Check the billable hour requirements for vault firms in secondary markets on NALP and then talk to associates at those satellite offices. They still get big clients and cases because they are being fed projects by the larger offices but they are only required to bill 1,800 vs 2,000+ in the major markets. The firm justifies this by paying them a lower base (ex: 120k) but the cost of living is usually much lower in the secondary market.

There are tradeoffs: worse exit options, not much room for growth or to make partner in the satellite office

But it all you care about is quality of life this is a much better option.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby keg411 » Mon May 07, 2012 9:20 pm

shoeshine wrote:This exists in a ton of secondary markets. Check the billable hour requirements for vault firms in secondary markets on NALP and then talk to associates at those satellite offices. They still get big clients and cases because they are being fed projects by the larger offices but they are only required to bill 1,800 vs 2,000+ in the major markets. The firm justifies this by paying them a lower base (ex: 120k) but the cost of living is usually much lower in the secondary market.

There are tradeoffs: worse exit options, not much room for growth or to make partner in the satellite office

But it all you care about is quality of life this is a much better option.


I interviewed widely across a pair of secondary markets (in addition to NYC). None of them had an 1800 hour requirement and "meant it" like sundance wanted. Maybe they had an unofficial 1800 hour mark, but the attorneys worked more than that and starting salaries ranged from $105k-$145k.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby shoeshine » Mon May 07, 2012 9:34 pm

keg411 wrote:
shoeshine wrote:This exists in a ton of secondary markets. Check the billable hour requirements for vault firms in secondary markets on NALP and then talk to associates at those satellite offices. They still get big clients and cases because they are being fed projects by the larger offices but they are only required to bill 1,800 vs 2,000+ in the major markets. The firm justifies this by paying them a lower base (ex: 120k) but the cost of living is usually much lower in the secondary market.

There are tradeoffs: worse exit options, not much room for growth or to make partner in the satellite office

But it all you care about is quality of life this is a much better option.


I interviewed widely across a pair of secondary markets (in addition to NYC). None of them had an 1800 hour requirement and "meant it" like sundance wanted. Maybe they had an unofficial 1800 hour mark, but the attorneys worked more than that and starting salaries ranged from $105k-$145k.

I think it depends on the market but I know of at least two where the situation I described exists.

I guess it could depend on the person too but the associates I talked to said billing right at or over 1800 was the norm. That still means working 45-50 hours a week (or more depending on the work flow) but that sure beats NYC big law hours.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby RVP11 » Mon May 07, 2012 9:45 pm

keg411 wrote:
shoeshine wrote:This exists in a ton of secondary markets. Check the billable hour requirements for vault firms in secondary markets on NALP and then talk to associates at those satellite offices. They still get big clients and cases because they are being fed projects by the larger offices but they are only required to bill 1,800 vs 2,000+ in the major markets. The firm justifies this by paying them a lower base (ex: 120k) but the cost of living is usually much lower in the secondary market.

There are tradeoffs: worse exit options, not much room for growth or to make partner in the satellite office

But it all you care about is quality of life this is a much better option.


I interviewed widely across a pair of secondary markets (in addition to NYC). None of them had an 1800 hour requirement and "meant it" like sundance wanted. Maybe they had an unofficial 1800 hour mark, but the attorneys worked more than that and starting salaries ranged from $105k-$145k.


Depends on market, firm, and practice area. I know a 7th year transactional associate in the main office of a NLJ250 firm (in a low COL city) who has yet to bill 1900 hours in a year. Just as billable hour "goals" or "requirements" are underestimates at NYC firms, they are often overestimates at secondary market firms.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby keg411 » Mon May 07, 2012 10:24 pm

RVP11 wrote:Depends on market, firm, and practice area. I know a 7th year transactional associate in the main office of a NLJ250 firm (in a low COL city) who has yet to bill 1900 hours in a year. Just as billable hour "goals" or "requirements" are underestimates at NYC firms, they are often overestimates at secondary market firms.


Then maybe it's an individual market thing, because the requirements were definitely underestimates at the secondary market firms I interviewed with. These weren't super low COL places, but they were *definitely* lower than NYC.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 08, 2012 12:53 am

keg411 wrote:And they're only "undersubscribed" by like 3 people. They have 42 SA's this year and had 45 last year. It's still a pretty massive class.

/not going to Cahill.


Not that this is a big deal at all, but last year's class had 37, so the class has actually expanded from last year. So yeah, the "undersubscription" others were talking about isn't even really an issue.

While I agree the interview process at Cahill is different (to say the least) I don't think the place itself has a bad attitude or anything. It's basically like any other big NYC shop--lots of work, a bunch of great people, and a bunch of not so great people. The interview process is just different because it isn't like some firms where you are assured of getting an offer based only on your credentials and so the interview is just a formality. I don't think any of the summers I worked with walked away from their interviews thinking they got the job.

I think there are some very valid reasons for choosing to go to Cahill as well as a higher-ranked firm. If you don't like the type of work Cahill does or want greater name recognition, then it makes sense to choose a higher-ranked firm. That said, I like the type of work it does, the direction the firm is heading in, and the extra money, so I decided to go with Cahill (incoming associate).

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby keg411 » Tue May 08, 2012 5:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
keg411 wrote:And they're only "undersubscribed" by like 3 people. They have 42 SA's this year and had 45 last year. It's still a pretty massive class.

/not going to Cahill.


Not that this is a big deal at all, but last year's class had 37, so the class has actually expanded from last year. So yeah, the "undersubscription" others were talking about isn't even really an issue.

While I agree the interview process at Cahill is different (to say the least) I don't think the place itself has a bad attitude or anything. It's basically like any other big NYC shop--lots of work, a bunch of great people, and a bunch of not so great people. The interview process is just different because it isn't like some firms where you are assured of getting an offer based only on your credentials and so the interview is just a formality. I don't think any of the summers I worked with walked away from their interviews thinking they got the job.

I think there are some very valid reasons for choosing to go to Cahill as well as a higher-ranked firm. If you don't like the type of work Cahill does or want greater name recognition, then it makes sense to choose a higher-ranked firm. That said, I like the type of work it does, the direction the firm is heading in, and the extra money, so I decided to go with Cahill (incoming associate).


I guess my contact at Cahill can't count, because we actually talked about this on Sunday which is the only reason I brought up the actual number. :lol:

But for serious, good luck there. It's not the easiest place in the world to work with the free market and all, but they pay you well, and they seem to be going in the right direction.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 08, 2012 6:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I made a throwaway account:

dlsummerthrowaway@gmail.com

Anyone that has any leads or knowledge on firms that are still hiring, let me know. If you have info on people with offers, let me know that too -- that way we can focus on other firms that are still hiring.

Edit: If you have nothing to contribute, I'd be happy to share what others have given me (once the ball is rolling).
Edit 2: Does anyone have an offer from Cahill?

Sent you something.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 08, 2012 6:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I made a throwaway account:

dlsummerthrowaway@gmail.com

Anyone that has any leads or knowledge on firms that are still hiring, let me know. If you have info on people with offers, let me know that too -- that way we can focus on other firms that are still hiring.

Edit: If you have nothing to contribute, I'd be happy to share what others have given me (once the ball is rolling).
Edit 2: Does anyone have an offer from Cahill?

Sent you something.


ditto

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 08, 2012 9:50 pm

Sent out an update. Thanks to those that sent me those e-mails! Very helpful for others.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby sunynp » Tue May 08, 2012 11:14 pm

I guess you guys have read about the mass layoff of associates in New York today They are going to layoff the other offices tomorrow I think. The 15th is the last day of work for them.

They get paid through the 15th and they get health insurance through the end of the month. I think their bonuses were deferred and will now never be paid.

it is such a terrible situation. I hope everyone finds something else.


http://abovethelaw.com/2012/05/dewey-kn ... -en-masse/

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 09, 2012 9:00 pm

NYU OCS informed us today that all former Dewey SAs at NYU who sought full-summer private sector positions have found them.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby blurbz » Wed May 09, 2012 9:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:NYU OCS informed us today that all former Dewey SAs at NYU who sought full-summer private sector positions have found them.



Good. Hopefully the others will all follow.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 09, 2012 9:43 pm

If the e-mails the firm sends out are any indication, roughly 12 people out of 34 are still trying to find a job. The director of recruiting usually e-mails all of us job opportunities, but her last e-mail only went to about 12 people, so unless there were separate e-mails, I think things are looking up. The real question is how many of the people that found jobs have market-paying jobs, or whether they're banking on 3L OCI to pull through.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed May 09, 2012 9:53 pm

wow i'm pretty impressed that people have found jobs that quickly this late in the game, especially all the NYU dewey SAs (who wanted them...did anyone not?) getting private sector jobs

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 09, 2012 9:58 pm

Sorry -- I've sent out an additional e-mail from a fellow SAer that has found employment. Further, if any of the NYU SAers have any opportunities that they passed up, please PLEASE consider sending it to the e-mail -- we still have people looking for firm jobs.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby RVP11 » Wed May 09, 2012 10:29 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:wow i'm pretty impressed that people have found jobs that quickly this late in the game, especially all the NYU dewey SAs (who wanted them...did anyone not?) getting private sector jobs


It's not that surprising.

There are probably plenty of BigLaw firms in NYC who realize in the spring that they needmore 3Ls, but the kind of people they're looking for (decent credentials, summered at a big firms, set to take the NY bar, and able to get out of their firm commitment) are usually in short supply.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 09, 2012 11:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If the e-mails the firm sends out are any indication, roughly 12 people out of 34 are still trying to find a job. The director of recruiting usually e-mails all of us job opportunities, but her last e-mail only went to about 12 people, so unless there were separate e-mails, I think things are looking up. The real question is how many of the people that found jobs have market-paying jobs, or whether they're banking on 3L OCI to pull through.

I think most from CLS and NYU are going to V50. The help from a combination of OCS and recruiting at DL has been great. I wonder, though, how much more difficult it is for SAs coming from other markets. I imagine that being able to step into one of the NYC firms for a callback is much easier than coordinating from, e.g., DC.

Also, last update I got indicated K&S NY would take resumes.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 09, 2012 11:33 pm

Former Dewey summer SA here. Earlier this week, after much searching, I landed a summer position at an awesome V20 that I really love. This is a horrible situation for all involved, but it can actually work out for the better. Keep your chin up and work every angle and every connection that you have. Good luck to all.




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