How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

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imchuckbass58
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby imchuckbass58 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:29 pm

DrGuano wrote:I don't think it was much of a secret they've had a tough 3-4 years...do your homework folks. I don't wish ill upon anyone, but there was plenty of diligence to be done, and an informed decision could have been reached.


Yeah. The extent of Dewey's problems weren't public knowledge, but several lawyers specifically warned me off about them during OCI almost two years ago. Supposedly the partner compensation problems were an open secret even then.

timbs4339
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:04 pm

DrGuano wrote:
sunynp wrote:
DrGuano wrote:This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.


You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting. But Dewey isn't the only firm with bad decision making and bad bookkeeping.

At least the failed Dewey SAs, if the firm ends the program, will have massive goodwill in the community. They will be at the top of the line. I hope they all find paying work for the summer. I really thought the firm could buy enough time and money to keep the summer going - but who knows now.


My perception of the firm's financial health was based on entirely public information, and supplemented with conversations I had with practicing big law attorneys at other firms. The fact they laid off a ton of attorneys/staff in the recession, the fact they merged at the worst possible time completely effing any resulting synergies, and the fact they had a limited SA class again where most firms were expanding. Dewey isn't the only firmed I turned down because of that, but one of three.

I don't think it was much of a secret they've had a tough 3-4 years...do your homework folks. I don't wish ill upon anyone, but there was plenty of diligence to be done, and an informed decision could have been reached.


Just because a better decision COULD have been made does not mean it was easy or obvious for others to make. The fact that Dewey probably had no problem filling out their summer class belies this. This hindsight is 20/20 B.S. is really disconcerting.

Others also may have had only one offer.

LawIdiot86
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:07 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
DrGuano wrote:
sunynp wrote:
DrGuano wrote:This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.


You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting. But Dewey isn't the only firm with bad decision making and bad bookkeeping.

At least the failed Dewey SAs, if the firm ends the program, will have massive goodwill in the community. They will be at the top of the line. I hope they all find paying work for the summer. I really thought the firm could buy enough time and money to keep the summer going - but who knows now.


My perception of the firm's financial health was based on entirely public information, and supplemented with conversations I had with practicing big law attorneys at other firms. The fact they laid off a ton of attorneys/staff in the recession, the fact they merged at the worst possible time completely effing any resulting synergies, and the fact they had a limited SA class again where most firms were expanding. Dewey isn't the only firmed I turned down because of that, but one of three.

I don't think it was much of a secret they've had a tough 3-4 years...do your homework folks. I don't wish ill upon anyone, but there was plenty of diligence to be done, and an informed decision could have been reached.


Just because a better decision COULD have been made does not mean it was easy or obvious for others to make. The fact that Dewey probably had no problem filling out their summer class belies this. This hindsight is 20/20 B.S. is really disconcerting.

Others also may have had only one offer.


Yes, when your choices are unpaid non-permanent work and 30k with a probable permanent spot being dangled on a pole in front of you, you don't look too closely at the man holding the pole for fear of spooking him.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:15 pm

Sooo in other words, you didn't get unlucky and in hindsight you are trying to attribute your lack of bad luck to your superior research and "due diligence.*" I hope you don't actually believe you're materially smarter than people who chose Dewey in your position and I certainly hope you don't attribute it to your "due diligence.*"

*AKA "I was blowing these big law bros"

Agent
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Agent » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:21 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:Sooo in other words, you didn't get unlucky and in hindsight you are trying to attribute your lack of bad luck to your superior research and "due diligence.*" I hope you don't actually believe you're materially smarter than people who chose Dewey in your position and I certainly hope you don't attribute it to your "due diligence.*"


+1.

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DrGuano
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby DrGuano » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:Sooo in other words, you didn't get unlucky and in hindsight you are trying to attribute your lack of bad luck to your superior research and "due diligence.*" I hope you don't actually believe you're materially smarter than people who chose Dewey in your position and I certainly hope you don't attribute it to your "due diligence.*"

*AKA "I was blowing these big law bros"


I didn't do any superior research. It's well known that Dewey laid off a ton of attorneys during the recession, recently merged at an inopportune time, is having an awfully hard time at turning a profit in its international offices, and has scaled back its summer class (admittedly like almost all firms, however, Dewey still held back this year where many other firms did not). I wasn't implying "due diligence" is some fact-seeking mission, rather it's knowing a little bit about a place before committing to work there (shocking I know).

Based on how many attorneys told me to steer clear of Dewey, I figured it was pretty much common knowledge that things weren't great there. When I interviewed one of the mid-level associates I worked with told me flat out, that litigation still hadn't fully recovered and her billables were still close to recession levels. Defending ignorance of those facts is comparable to those defending attending law school at all costs. I didn't predict anything and did not think Dewey would face bankruptcy in the near future, but I was wary of the possibility of being laid off for financial reasons if I went there. It happened before and there were no reasons to suggest it wouldn't happen again.

For those that only had one choice, that's a bummer and it's an unfortunate situation that I can certainly sympathize with. But I wasn't addressing that situation to begin with, so please save your criticisms.

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ExAnt3
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby ExAnt3 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:54 pm

DrGuano wrote: so please save your criticisms.


People are critical because you come off like an asshole when you say things like:

DrGuano wrote: Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:57 pm

Yeah you're really sympathetic. "Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office."

Look chief, if you were sympathetic maybe I'd understand where you're coming from, but it's pretty clear you weren't being "sympathetic" and if you were then just wow, I don't even know what to say in that event. But when you make the choice to be an internet tough guy and try to fuck with people who got a bad break then you're opening yourself up to criticism (mine and others included) and I'll do so unapologetically.

So I'm sympathetic to your cause but... Sorry bro. Looks like you'll be dealing with the full force of everyones criticisms at least until you apologize for being a douche with that comment.

timbs4339
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:19 pm

DrGuano wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:Sooo in other words, you didn't get unlucky and in hindsight you are trying to attribute your lack of bad luck to your superior research and "due diligence.*" I hope you don't actually believe you're materially smarter than people who chose Dewey in your position and I certainly hope you don't attribute it to your "due diligence.*"

*AKA "I was blowing these big law bros"


I didn't do any superior research. It's well known that Dewey laid off a ton of attorneys during the recession, recently merged at an inopportune time, is having an awfully hard time at turning a profit in its international offices, and has scaled back its summer class (admittedly like almost all firms, however, Dewey still held back this year where many other firms did not). I wasn't implying "due diligence" is some fact-seeking mission, rather it's knowing a little bit about a place before committing to work there (shocking I know).


There are a lot of firms for which the above is the case. I've been on some interviews at supposedly stable firms where people have told me straight up to stay away. I would have gladly still taken offers at those firms.

dooood
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby dooood » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:24 pm

ExAnt3 wrote:People are critical because you come off like are an asshole when you say things like


Of all the fora on this site to brag about your foresight (read: good luck), this is not it. The fact is Dewey was crushing it coming out of the technical recession, ranking no. 7 in the US M&A league tables (behind only Skadden, S&C, CSGH, Latham, STB and WLRK) and no. 9 in the world. This was three years after the merger; the combined firm had problems at first, but by all accounts integration had been achieved by 2010. Indeed, the 2007 merger is not what created these problems: it was their aggressive over-expansion over the past two years during which they guaranteed partners' salaries before ensuring they would gain their books of business.

Also, their private placement in 2010 was not regarded as a sign of poor financial health - just a novel alternative to a revolving line of credit (http://lawshucks.com/2010/04/dewey-floats-notes/). If anything, it was Dewey flexing its muscles, because institutional investors demand stronger balance sheets and income statements for a PP than a bank does for a revolving line of credit (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-04-1 ... pital.html).

The partner defections didn't begin until January, and eight months ago when you were doing OCI Dewey was rocking and rolling. So an associate made a comment during an interview and you chose another firm. Fine. Just don't chalk it up to your "due diligence."

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DrGuano
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby DrGuano » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:04 pm

The "Sorry bro" is being taken out of context at this point. My response was hyperbole in response to this particular person's use of the word "bro" when trying to sell me on Dewey. The harshness of that response is directed at that individual and not all that accepted offers at Dewey. I did not intend for it to come off otherwise, and seeing as it did, that's regrettable.

Otherwise, I haven't once claimed to have superior knowledge nor predicted anything. Picking a firm to work at is not like picking menu items. It's a very serious decision that involves consideration of many factors. OCI is not something you can simply do over. You may get another shot at it, 3L OCI, but that is not a given. Based on my conversation with the previously mentioned user of the word "bro," it's shocking how lightly some people take that decision. "Bro it's a great firm," is all this kid had to offer in making his decision.

I will of course point out that gut feeling is a big factor in deciding to go to a firm. However, that is not the only relevant metric, and if someone took their decision seriously enough, they would've uncovered some red flags about Dewey. Not red flags any different from a White & Case or an Orrick, but still, a red flag nonetheless. Thus, it is not shocking to me that people at Dewey are in this position. That is all. It will happen again at other firms, and I only hope that folks have enough information to make an informed decision before making such a huge commitment to hopefully avoid a similar peril.

Flame away. But you're defending a weak position.

timbs4339
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:18 pm

DrGuano wrote:The "Sorry bro" is being taken out of context at this point. My response was hyperbole in response to this particular person's use of the word "bro" when trying to sell me on Dewey. The harshness of that response is directed at that individual and not all that accepted offers at Dewey. I did not intend for it to come off otherwise, and seeing as it did, that's regrettable.

Otherwise, I haven't once claimed to have superior knowledge nor predicted anything. Picking a firm to work at is not like picking menu items. It's a very serious decision that involves consideration of many factors. OCI is not something you can simply do over. You may get another shot at it, 3L OCI, but that is not a given. Based on my conversation with the previously mentioned user of the word "bro," it's shocking how lightly some people take that decision. "Bro it's a great firm," is all this kid had to offer in making his decision.

I will of course point out that gut feeling is a big factor in deciding to go to a firm. However, that is not the only relevant metric, and if someone took their decision seriously enough, they would've uncovered some red flags about Dewey. Not red flags any different from a White & Case or an Orrick, but still, a red flag nonetheless. Thus, it is not shocking to me that people at Dewey are in this position. That is all. It will happen again at other firms, and I only hope that folks have enough information to make an informed decision before making such a huge commitment to hopefully avoid a similar peril.

Flame away. But you're defending a weak position.


So if you were deciding between Dewey, Orrick, White and Case, Pillsbury, etc, which one would you pick? If you get three offers and every firm has red flags, you really shouldn't be surprised people picked the wrong one occasionally.

jc1988
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby jc1988 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:33 pm

DrGuano wrote:The "Sorry bro" is being taken out of context at this point. My response was hyperbole in response to this particular person's use of the word "bro" when trying to sell me on Dewey. The harshness of that response is directed at that individual and not all that accepted offers at Dewey. I did not intend for it to come off otherwise, and seeing as it did, that's regrettable.


sorry bro, you still sound like a douchebag. So again, go fuck yourself.

Agent
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Agent » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:33 pm

DrGuano wrote:The "Sorry bro" is being taken out of context at this point. [lots of stuff]

Flame away. But you're defending a weak position.


So you slipped up and sounded like a jerk on the internet. No big deal. This thread is just a particularly bad place for it. I don't know, maybe Dewey SAs would like an apology, but I doubt they care. Regardless, there's no need to spend this much energy defending yourself from the fallout of a careless comment, right? You wouldn't keep it going like this in real life, right?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:47 pm

DrGuano wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:Sooo in other words, you didn't get unlucky and in hindsight you are trying to attribute your lack of bad luck to your superior research and "due diligence.*" I hope you don't actually believe you're materially smarter than people who chose Dewey in your position and I certainly hope you don't attribute it to your "due diligence.*"

*AKA "I was blowing these big law bros"


I didn't do any superior research. It's well known that Dewey laid off a ton of attorneys during the recession, recently merged at an inopportune time, is having an awfully hard time at turning a profit in its international offices, and has scaled back its summer class (admittedly like almost all firms, however, Dewey still held back this year where many other firms did not). I wasn't implying "due diligence" is some fact-seeking mission, rather it's knowing a little bit about a place before committing to work there (shocking I know).

Based on how many attorneys told me to steer clear of Dewey, I figured it was pretty much common knowledge that things weren't great there. When I interviewed one of the mid-level associates I worked with told me flat out, that litigation still hadn't fully recovered and her billables were still close to recession levels. Defending ignorance of those facts is comparable to those defending attending law school at all costs. I didn't predict anything and did not think Dewey would face bankruptcy in the near future, but I was wary of the possibility of being laid off for financial reasons if I went there. It happened before and there were no reasons to suggest it wouldn't happen again.

For those that only had one choice, that's a bummer and it's an unfortunate situation that I can certainly sympathize with. But I wasn't addressing that situation to begin with, so please save your criticisms.

People addressing your arguments are skirting the primary issue here, which is that nobody gives a shit what you think about people who chose to work at Dewey.

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DrGuano
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby DrGuano » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:51 pm

Agent wrote:
DrGuano wrote:The "Sorry bro" is being taken out of context at this point. [lots of stuff]

Flame away. But you're defending a weak position.


So you slipped up and sounded like a jerk on the internet. No big deal. This thread is just a particularly bad place for it. I don't know, maybe Dewey SAs would like an apology, but I doubt they care. Regardless, there's no need to spend this much energy defending yourself from the fallout of a careless comment, right? You wouldn't keep it going like this in real life, right?


Debatable. We are all aspiring/attorneys.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Morgan12Oak » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:53 pm

I hope the person who told you "bro it's a great firm" reads this forum so he can punch you in the face. I'm envisioning a really funny meme/gif of you getting punched in the face with a caption "bro good luck in sports law"

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sunynp
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby sunynp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:11 pm

So what do you guys think of the silence from the firm? I'm thinking it is a very bad sign and we probably won't hear anything til Monday. Maybe the lenders will give them a short extension to figure something out.

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DarkwingDick
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby DarkwingDick » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:27 pm

why is white + case grouped w Dewey, Orrick, et al?

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sundance95
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby sundance95 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:50 pm

DarkwingDick wrote:why is white + case grouped w Dewey, Orrick, et al?

+1. Also please share what Orrick's issues are, I'd been looking at them as a potential option for an oci bid. Tyia

dooood
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby dooood » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:54 pm

DarkwingDick wrote:why is white + case grouped w Dewey, Orrick, et al?

This: --LinkRemoved--
This: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/nyreg ... wanted=all
And maybe this: http://abovethelaw.com/2012/03/biglaws- ... eterias/2/

Anonymous User
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:18 pm

Holy crap... breaking news on law 360 (subscription required, which I don't have). http://www.law360.com/topnews/articles/ ... firm-head-

Fellow SAs... this sucks :(

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5ky
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby 5ky » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Holy crap... breaking news on law 360 (subscription required, which I don't have). http://www.law360.com/topnews/articles/ ... firm-head-

Fellow SAs... this sucks :(


oh my god, wow. condolences to all involved.

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sunynp
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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby sunynp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:25 pm

Law360, New York (April 26, 2012, 8:53 PM ET) -- A group of Dewey & LeBoeuf LLP partners has asked the New York district attorney to bring criminal charges against the chairman of the tottering firm, which could close its doors as early as next week, a source familiar with the matter said Thursday.

The source told Law360 that an undisclosed number of partners from Dewey asked the New York County district attorney to charge Chairman Steven H. Davis with embezzlement, wire fraud, mail fraud and other criminal activity.

Dewey, which has lost nearly 20 percent of its partnership this year, has stretched itself financially to the breaking point, forcing the firm to seriously consider filing a prepackaged Chapter 11, according to sources familiar with the matter.

The firm could shutter its offices as early as next week without being able to pay off associates, paralegals, kitchen staff and others, a source said Thursday, predicting that “the story can only end one way."

Calling Davis a “sinister character,” the inside source revealed that Davis informed the firm’s partners at a global partners' meeting in October that he had signed more than 100 contracts guaranteeing certain partners compensation.

Those contracts, which added up to approximately $197 million, drained more than 75 percent of the firm’s reported $250 million in year-end profits, leaving hundreds of partners to split up the remaining $50 million.

And while it is not unusual to extend guaranteed compensation contracts to lateral hires joining the firm, the source claims Davis gave out too many, most of which went to friends. The chairman was allegedly “running the firm like a mafia,” the source said.

When questioned, the firm’s executive committee claimed it did not know about the firm’s overextended circumstances, indicating that Davis allegedly handed out the guaranteed compensation contracts — some worth up to $1.2 million — without any oversight.

In addition, Davis has already cashed out his personal capital in the firm, in violation of firm agreements, the source said.

Internally, Dewey told partners in December that it had not made enough money in the past year to even pay partners with guaranteed contracts, leaving many breached. The informant told Law360 Thursday, however, that the firm was insolvent as early as November.

As the insolvency crisis nears collapse, with the firm’s $72 million revolving credit line with lenders J.P. Morgan Chase, HSBC Holdings PLC and others set to expire on the last day of this month, the source says a lot of people will be harmed in the process.

If Dewey does file for bankruptcy, it is predicted to be “the nastiest bankruptcy a law firm has ever had,” the source said, as all of the firm’s capital accounts are brought to zero.

Former partners have already reported that they are waiting for overdue payments of invested capital from Dewey, but if the firm declares bankruptcy, they may never see those funds.

The payments were part of multiyear reimbursement plans that were established to repay former partners for traditional capital contributions the attorneys made when they joined the firm or were elected to partner.

Further, reports that Greenberg Traurig LLP will merge with Dewey may be hasty, the source warned.

“Why would they want to merge?” the source asked, adding that the group of partners negotiating with Greenberg have kept the rest of Dewey’s partners in the dark as to the productivity of the talks.

The source, however, was able to confirm that Greenberg got an inside look at Dewey’s books and that a plan to “cherry-pick” the best of Dewey’s partners was not out of the question.

The district attorney’s office and a representative for Dewey were not immediately available for comment Thursday.

--Editing by Cara Salvatore.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:30 pm

hahaha... I am no longer shocked anymore...

Any SAs having success at finding another position in this thread? Even before 3L recruiting, we need something for the summer, no?




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