How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

[LawIdiot86]

FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?

Am deriving absolutely zero pleasure from this. Several of my close friends work at the firm and this whole matter has made me extremely concerned for their wellbeing.

I am, however, shaking my head at the lack of discipline and shitty leadership the Dewey partnership has shown over the years. Law students considering firms need to look at the symptoms of this debacle and learn to avoid firms that exhibit similar symptoms.

I agree that students "should" try to learn what they can from this, but law firm leadership is enough of a blackbox that I question whether they can. What symptoms were showing when 2Ls went through OCI? Or even before what is happening now hit the news?

I ask from the perspective of a law student that almost accepted an offer from Howrey. The main reason I didn't was because I called one of the associates with whom I had lunch on the callback. He told me that several of the partners he worked for had left and that his own work was drying up. This sent a very strong signal to me. But had I not called, or had I called the other associate, I would have not gotten the same perspective. Note that at the time, several people whose opinion I value encouraged me to accept Howrey's offer. A few of them pointed out that the training program offset the lower salary. Let's just say that the conversation I had with the Howrey associate was providential; I accepted at another firm.

But without this type of conversation, how would a law student be able to evaluate the leadership or long-term viability of a firm?

Never having been in a position to negotiate, I've been told by friends that once you have an offer, you can request details on the firm's status, like its debt structure, etc. I'm sure some firms won't tell you and some may ding your record for being so presumptuous. Also, while Dewey didn't embrace anything too unusual, Howrey's "apprentice" program should have been a massive red flag. A traditional firm deviating from the normal Biglaw model would be a redflag for me. Also, a firm that seems to lack a strategy, Reed Smith carpet bombing the country with offices to grow, SNR Denton trying a funky trans-atlantic merger, Dewey's office-opening spree would all concern me. Also, general firm health would concern me. Pepper Hamilton is known to be reliant on a couple of practice groups for the bulk of its profits and Fish & Richardson has had to extensively re-trench after a failed growth strategy.

[Anonymous User]

Never having been in a position to negotiate, I've been told by friends that once you have an offer, you can request details on the firm's status, like its debt structure, etc. I'm sure some firms won't tell you and some may ding your record for being so presumptuous. Also, while Dewey didn't embrace anything too unusual, Howrey's "apprentice" program should have been a massive red flag. A traditional firm deviating from the normal Biglaw model would be a redflag for me. Also, a firm that seems to lack a strategy, Reed Smith carpet bombing the country with offices to grow, SNR Denton trying a funky trans-atlantic merger, Dewey's office-opening spree would all concern me. Also, general firm health would concern me. Pepper Hamilton is known to be reliant on a couple of practice groups for the bulk of its profits and Fish & Richardson has had to extensively re-trench after a failed growth strategy.

I have heard from many people (at firms, in law school placement offices, in articles in NY Times) about the benefits of an apprentice model. I think it would be preferable as well. I think big firms aren't willing to do it for two reasons.

First, it would be an implicit admission that the people they're hiring may not be ready to do the work they are going to do for, and bill to, the clients. This could lower profitability for first year associates, at least in the short term, but that effect can be offset by a reduction in salary, ala Howrey.

Second, any firm to do this would be perceived as weaker than its peers. As long as no one breaks ranks, law firms can continue to do what they've always done (e.g. raise or not raise salaries together).

So it's not that the model is bad, it's just that there are pressures that work against its adoption. I will agree that it is more likely to be adopted by a firm that is struggling (to save on costs) or by a firm that may not have the same incentive to protect its reputation relative to its peers (i.e. it may get prestigious work, but not the MOST prestigious work).

[LawIdiot86]

Never having been in a position to negotiate, I've been told by friends that once you have an offer, you can request details on the firm's status, like its debt structure, etc. I'm sure some firms won't tell you and some may ding your record for being so presumptuous. Also, while Dewey didn't embrace anything too unusual, Howrey's "apprentice" program should have been a massive red flag. A traditional firm deviating from the normal Biglaw model would be a redflag for me. Also, a firm that seems to lack a strategy, Reed Smith carpet bombing the country with offices to grow, SNR Denton trying a funky trans-atlantic merger, Dewey's office-opening spree would all concern me. Also, general firm health would concern me. Pepper Hamilton is known to be reliant on a couple of practice groups for the bulk of its profits and Fish & Richardson has had to extensively re-trench after a failed growth strategy.

I have heard from many people (at firms, in law school placement offices, in articles in NY Times) about the benefits of an apprentice model. I think it would be preferable as well. I think big firms aren't willing to do it for two reasons.

First, it would be an implicit admission that the people they're hiring may not be ready to do the work they are going to do for, and bill to, the clients. This could lower profitability for first year associates, at least in the short term, but that effect can be offset by a reduction in salary, ala Howrey.

Second, any firm to do this would be perceived as weaker than its peers. As long as no one breaks ranks, law firms can continue to do what they've always done (e.g. raise or not raise salaries together).

So it's not that the model is bad, it's just that there are pressures that work against its adoption. I will agree that it is more likely to be adopted by a firm that is struggling (to save on costs) or by a firm that may not have the same incentive to protect its reputation relative to its peers (i.e. it may get prestigious work, but not the MOST prestigious work).

I agree that it sounds like a really good idea, but would be terrified of any firm that adopted it, because firms are so change-resistant that they will only act when facing massive problems.

[rad lulz]

.

[LawIdiot86]

Also, while Dewey didn't embrace anything too unusual, Howrey's "apprentice" program should have been a massive red flag. A traditional firm deviating from the normal Biglaw model would be a redflag for me.

But see Waller Lansden Nashville moving entirely to 3L recruiting. This is one of Nashville's top players, moved entirely to 3L recruiting. May still be too soon to tell, but there have been no other inklings that anything is bad. Indicators look positive. They're quite busy.

So yeah, it's just hard to tell.

Right, but if you're trying to avoid risk and are picking among, say, Waller, Husch, and Baker in Tennessee, I would say Baker is the safest choice for risk avoidance because of Waller's changing strategy and Husch's merger.

[rad lulz]

.

[run26.2]

Also, while Dewey didn't embrace anything too unusual, Howrey's "apprentice" program should have been a massive red flag. A traditional firm deviating from the normal Biglaw model would be a redflag for me.

But see Waller Lansden Nashville moving entirely to 3L recruiting. This is one of Nashville's top players, moved entirely to 3L recruiting. May still be too soon to tell, but there have been no other inklings that anything is bad. Indicators look positive. They're quite busy.

So yeah, it's just hard to tell.

I was the anon above. Didn't mean to post anon.

I agree that 3L recruiting is better than what we have, especially if firms are just using 2L summer as a formality and not really evaluating candidates for post-graduation positions. Firms can't have a great idea of the hot practice areas or overall market 24 months prior to a person's start date. I think firms fear that they may lose out on talent if they wait that long.

[LawIdiot86]

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/dewey-have-trouble-holding-on-to-partners-theres-an-app-for-that/

Apparently the magic number is 225. This works out to about a 30% partner headcount loss from their apparently peak of ~320.

[Anonymous User]

does anybody think dewey can weather the storm? -incoming SA

[Morgan12Oak]

Realistically, they may have a shot at weathering the storm. But, 100% offer rate for the firm seems like a longshot. They probably hired based off of the assumption that they you know had 300+ partners with an insurance practice and everything… I just fail to see how offering a 100% SA class based on a shrinking firm and a policy of “downsizing for profitability” would be consistent

[sunynp]

does anybody think dewey can weather the storm? -incoming SA

I think they will weather the storm. I wouldn't count on getting or taking a permanent job there though. I would work my ass off for recommendations so I can hope to find something else. Think of it as a long summer of making as many contacts as you possibly can.

[timbs4339]

does anybody think dewey can weather the storm? -incoming SA

They might- but it doesn't look good. The next few weeks will tell. If they continue to lose partners from a variety of groups (not insurance or partners with related practices) the question will become whether they can hang on long enough for you guys to get your summer $$$.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

The timing is incredibly unfortunate for us incoming SAs. At least when Howrey announced it was done, there were a couple months for the SAs to scramble and find something. For us Dewey SAs, as far as we know summer is still on. The communication has been really poor. If the firm folds in May, it's way too late to even get anything for the summer.

[LawIdiot86]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

The timing is incredibly unfortunate for us incoming SAs. At least when Howrey announced it was done, there were a couple months for the SAs to scramble and find something. For us Dewey SAs, as far as we know summer is still on. The communication has been really poor. If the firm folds in May, it's way too late to even get anything for the summer.

The pace is unlikely to be constant because of two other factors. First, not all partners are equally desirable to other firms. While a super-profitable insurance relationship partner might be courted by a dozen firms, a random general commercial litigation service partner will find it harder to leave. Assuming these 50 that left had very good options, the remaining pool of partners will, on average, find it harder to lateral to another firm. Alternatively, because 50 have left, the remaining partners will be more likely to panic and wish to avoid being left holding the bag and flee as quickly as possible to whomever will take them. Freakishly could end up constant if they are both equally strong in opposite directions.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

The timing is incredibly unfortunate for us incoming SAs. At least when Howrey announced it was done, there were a couple months for the SAs to scramble and find something. For us Dewey SAs, as far as we know summer is still on. The communication has been really poor. If the firm folds in May, it's way too late to even get anything for the summer.

The pace is unlikely to be constant because of two other factors. First, not all partners are equally desirable to other firms. While a super-profitable insurance relationship partner might be courted by a dozen firms, a random general commercial litigation service partner will find it harder to leave. Assuming these 50 that left had very good options, the remaining pool of partners will, on average, find it harder to lateral to another firm. Alternatively, because 50 have left, the remaining partners will be more likely to panic and wish to avoid being left holding the bag and flee as quickly as possible to whomever will take them. Freakishly could end up constant if they are both equally strong in opposite directions.

I would bet good money that the pace will continue, if not accelerate. Insurance partners were profitable...but certainly not the most profitable. Also, the 50 partners who left are not all rainmakers or those with the best options. It's been a mix. There are other very profitable partners at the firm in different practice areas (bankruptcy, IP, tech, latin america, securities litigation) who are being heavily courted right now by other firms. Ironically, many of these groups are recent laterals and had numerous lucrative offers to choose from. They just happened to choose the wrong firm (like many of us). This is just the beginning of the end.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

[Anonymous User]

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

How exactly do you expect Dewey SAs to do that?(seriously) Everything is dried up at this point unless you have a great connection. It's not a matter of kool aid, but a matter of literally no other options, IMO.

[sunynp]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

1. I think Dewey can afford to pay you. But it is good you are thinking of your own self-interest here as that will serve you well. It is almost May now. They aren't going to go out of business before August. If I'm wrong, and the do, there is still noting you can do about it now anyway. Just go and do your best work.

2. Unless you have a connection who can magically produce a biglaw SA,, you are better off sweating it through this summer. There aren't any SAs to be had now at any firm.

3. If you can line up a potential backup gig in case this falls through for your peace of mind, do it.

[romothesavior]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

There isn't a single thing in this quoted block that can be construed as "Dewey Kool-Aid."

[Anonymous User]

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

How exactly do you expect Dewey SAs to do that?(seriously) Everything is dried up at this point unless you have a great connection. It's not a matter of kool aid, but a matter of literally no other options, IMO.

Wrong! Don't think this way. I've seen a number of positions posted in the last few weeks on my school's database for summer internships. Some of them are really interesting. They are not big law, but they will provide you with something to talk about during OCI. Think of it this way: your risk adverse classmates who are thinking ahead will take these positions and will also be doing OCI and you will be competing against them for positions. Do you want to screw yourself over before OCI even begins? You seem to be holding out hope that Dewey will survive the summer. At the very least find an RA position which you can do whether Dewey survives or not.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming SA. It looks like the firm dropped from 320 to 270 partners, and to fall to 225 is another 45 departures, in which case they trigger acceleration clauses or such on debt obligations. They've lost 50 in an epic year through April, so 45 certainly seems possible in 2012 at some point. Someone above said survival of the firm depends on not losing major components of major and so-far-unaffected practice groups, but the loan covenants trigger even if there is a slow bleed from unrelated or unimportant partners.

ATL also says the current pace of partner departures through April would put D-day in June. What are the chances we actually get paid this summer? And what are the chances there is any real work to do in order to get said recommendation?

This seems like some kind of cruel debt overhang problem - as they get closer they get to the magic number, more partners leave, it becomes more difficult to retain clients for new projects, drying up further revenue, making payment of partners even more difficult, and hence leading to more departures.

Fuck me for studying the very subject that helps me better understand the financial demise of the institution in which I placed my hope for salvation from personal financial demise.

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

There isn't a single thing in this quoted block that can be construed as "Dewey Kool-Aid."

Drinking Dewey Kool-Aid: Holding out hope that a firm which has been making management mistakes for years can suddenly pull it together. Look, I'm supposed to go there too. Just being realistic.

[NinerFan]

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

How exactly do you expect Dewey SAs to do that?(seriously) Everything is dried up at this point unless you have a great connection. It's not a matter of kool aid, but a matter of literally no other options, IMO.

Wrong! Don't think this way. I've seen a number of positions posted in the last few weeks on my school's database for summer internships. Some of them are really interesting. They are not big law, but they will provide you with something to talk about during OCI. Think of it this way: your risk adverse classmates who are thinking ahead will take these positions and will also be doing OCI and you will be competing against them for positions. Do you want to screw yourself over before OCI even begins? You seem to be holding out hope that Dewey will survive the summer. At the very least find an RA position which you can do whether Dewey survives or not.

So you think it's less risky to take a non-firm internship than to stick with Dewey and hope they last the summer or beyond? I'd take Dewey over that, at least then you'd have a firm on your resume during 3L OCI instead of an internship.

[Anonymous User]

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

How exactly do you expect Dewey SAs to do that?(seriously) Everything is dried up at this point unless you have a great connection. It's not a matter of kool aid, but a matter of literally no other options, IMO.

Wrong! Don't think this way. I've seen a number of positions posted in the last few weeks on my school's database for summer internships. Some of them are really interesting. They are not big law, but they will provide you with something to talk about during OCI. Think of it this way: your risk adverse classmates who are thinking ahead will take these positions and will also be doing OCI and you will be competing against them for positions. Do you want to screw yourself over before OCI even begins? You seem to be holding out hope that Dewey will survive the summer. At the very least find an RA position which you can do whether Dewey survives or not.

So you think it's less risky to take a non-firm internship than to stick with Dewey and hope they last the summer or beyond? I'd take Dewey over that, at least then you'd have a firm on your resume during 3L OCI instead of an internship.

I would show the offer letter I received at 3L OCI. Plus, I would have something to talk about instead of "I sat around for three weeks. Didn't do much because the firm was going under and no one was assigning work." Firms primarily care about grades anyway. I think this is the less risky of the options, definitely.

[romothesavior]

If you want to make the smart choice, it is imperative that you stop drinking the Dewey Kool-Aid and find another job now while you still have time.

How exactly do you expect Dewey SAs to do that?(seriously) Everything is dried up at this point unless you have a great connection. It's not a matter of kool aid, but a matter of literally no other options, IMO.

Wrong! Don't think this way. I've seen a number of positions posted in the last few weeks on my school's database for summer internships. Some of them are really interesting. They are not big law, but they will provide you with something to talk about during OCI. Think of it this way: your risk adverse classmates who are thinking ahead will take these positions and will also be doing OCI and you will be competing against them for positions. Do you want to screw yourself over before OCI even begins? You seem to be holding out hope that Dewey will survive the summer. At the very least find an RA position which you can do whether Dewey survives or not.

I'm sorry but this is kinda silly. It might be a good idea to apply to some other firms as hail mary passes, or maybe try to lock up an RA position or something as a potential backup if Dewey collapses before the summer. But if Dewey still exists come May, the SAs should do that over any RA or small time PI gig. Hell, even if the firm implodes two weeks into the summer, I'd rather putt "Dewey SA" on my resume for 3L OCI than be a judicial intern or work for some government agency or something.