How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:47 pm

At this point you're not going to find a comparable summer associate position (without great connections). Even though there's a serious possibility that Dewey won't be around by fall 2013, if you summer there you'll (a) collect some cash, and (b) be able to show employers at 3L OCI that you didn't strike out the year before. Dewey summers should be focused on keeping their grades as high as possible and preparing to search for a job as a 3L--and for a federal clerkship if grades permit that.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby NinerFan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:At this point you're not going to find a comparable summer associate position (without great connections). Even though there's a serious possibility that Dewey won't be around by fall 2013, if you summer there you'll (a) collect some cash, and (b) be able to show employers at 3L OCI that you didn't strike out the year before. Dewey summers should be focused on keeping their grades as high as possible and preparing to search for a job as a 3L--and for a federal clerkship if grades permit that.


Collect some cash? That's assuming they don't issue them IOUs.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Dewey summer associates should be looking for new jobs yesterday.

Eh, Dewey will probably still have a summer program. SAs can still do 3L OCI/apply for clerkships. It sucks, but life goes on.


This.

Every firm I have spoken with about the situation has been very empathetic.


I would be surprised if any firm was happy about Dewey's demise and wasn't sympathetic to the SAs and associates, neither of whom had any control or blame for the situation. Although, I would expect that some peer and near-peer firms that have 3L hiring (like Dechert and Cooley) might be happy that Dewey pre-screened a nice crop of people for them to cherry pick.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:19 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Dewey summer associates should be looking for new jobs yesterday.

Eh, Dewey will probably still have a summer program. SAs can still do 3L OCI/apply for clerkships. It sucks, but life goes on.


This.

Every firm I have spoken with about the situation has been very empathetic.


I would be surprised if any firm was happy about Dewey's demise and wasn't sympathetic to the SAs and associates, neither of whom had any control or blame for the situation. Although, I would expect that some peer and near-peer firms that have 3L hiring (like Dechert and Cooley) might be happy that Dewey pre-screened a nice crop of people for them to cherry pick.


So you think Dewey SAs will do better at 3L OCI this upcoming fall than other 3Ls?

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Indifferent wrote:Eh, Dewey will probably still have a summer program. SAs can still do 3L OCI/apply for clerkships. It sucks, but life goes on.


This.

Every firm I have spoken with about the situation has been very empathetic.


I would be surprised if any firm was happy about Dewey's demise and wasn't sympathetic to the SAs and associates, neither of whom had any control or blame for the situation. Although, I would expect that some peer and near-peer firms that have 3L hiring (like Dechert and Cooley) might be happy that Dewey pre-screened a nice crop of people for them to cherry pick.


So you think Dewey SAs will do better at 3L OCI this upcoming fall than other 3Ls?


This is purely speculative, but I think 3Ls at OCI generally fall into three categories: People who didn't SA, people who SA'd and were no-offered/cold-offered, people who SA'd and are looking to trade up. Firms generally don't want people who didn't SA because they have no idea if the person can cut it as a biglaw associate (there are bizarre exceptions to this). And, while firms may want people who SA'd and are looking to trade based on location/practice group/fit, it's hard to figure out who genuinely wants to move firms because of that and who was cold offered. But, everyone knows exactly why Dewey SAs are seeking to trade off, so the odds that a person is incompetent and looking to avoid a cold-offer are lower. This should make them more desirable to other firms that would have given them offers as 2Ls.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:16 am

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... peaks.html

In this interview, this guy does not seem very optimistic about the firm staying afloat. He uses some pretty scary language. One of my really good friends is going to Dewey and he's pretty oblivious to how serious the situation is I think. I really feel for him and I hope it works out and they can at least have a full summer.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/04/dewey-defector-speaks.html

In this interview, this guy does not seem very optimistic about the firm staying afloat. He uses some pretty scary language. One of my really good friends is going to Dewey and he's pretty oblivious to how serious the situation is I think. I really feel for him and I hope it works out and they can at least have a full summer.


He probably has something like cognitive inertia coupled with wishful thinking. Most people predict a positive outcome for their own lives, sometimes by self-deception, because of the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. The fact pattern that your friend likely has no permanent job and is helpless to change the situation, but still must go in and work hard this summer, would create a profound internal conflict that would trigger all sorts of defense mechanisms to prevent extreme depression, despair, and paranoia.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:45 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/04/dewey-defector-speaks.html

In this interview, this guy does not seem very optimistic about the firm staying afloat. He uses some pretty scary language. One of my really good friends is going to Dewey and he's pretty oblivious to how serious the situation is I think. I really feel for him and I hope it works out and they can at least have a full summer.


He probably has something like cognitive inertia coupled with wishful thinking. Most people predict a positive outcome for their own lives, sometimes by self-deception, because of the discomfort of cognitive dissonance. The fact pattern that your friend likely has no permanent job and is helpless to change the situation, but still must go in and work hard this summer, would create a profound internal conflict that would trigger all sorts of defense mechanisms to prevent extreme depression, despair, and paranoia.


:roll:

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:02 pm

Dewey loses two more partners in London: http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... -more.html

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:14 pm

FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:18 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?


Am deriving absolutely zero pleasure from this. Several of my close friends work at the firm and this whole matter has made me extremely concerned for their wellbeing.

I am, however, shaking my head at the lack of discipline and shitty leadership the Dewey partnership has shown over the years. Law students considering firms need to look at the symptoms of this debacle and learn to avoid firms that exhibit similar symptoms.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:21 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?


My interest is that I'm going to a different firm and want to learn all the details of what an actual trainwreck in-progress looks like and how it unfolds, should I be unlucky enough to be in the same situation a few years down the road and need to decide when/if to jump ship.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby jawsthegreat » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:29 pm

At what point does Dewey, as a firm, cease to be viable?

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:54 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?


Am deriving absolutely zero pleasure from this. Several of my close friends work at the firm and this whole matter has made me extremely concerned for their wellbeing.

I am, however, shaking my head at the lack of discipline and shitty leadership the Dewey partnership has shown over the years. Law students considering firms need to look at the symptoms of this debacle and learn to avoid firms that exhibit similar symptoms.

Fair. Guess I misread your tone. There's also a lot of dark humor that comes along with shitty news like this, a la all the "Dewey" jokes.

Lawidiot, I'm following the news with great interest for the same reasons as you. I'm sure I also have a number of classmates going to Dewey this summer but don't know who they are.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:56 pm

jawsthegreat wrote:At what point does Dewey, as a firm, cease to be viable?

Well 16% of the partners have left, but it's tough to pin down until they announce the dissolution. A lot of this is happening behind closed doors it seems and people are keeping mum.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby NinerFan » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:33 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?


Am deriving absolutely zero pleasure from this. Several of my close friends work at the firm and this whole matter has made me extremely concerned for their wellbeing.

I am, however, shaking my head at the lack of discipline and shitty leadership the Dewey partnership has shown over the years. Law students considering firms need to look at the symptoms of this debacle and learn to avoid firms that exhibit similar symptoms.

Fair. Guess I misread your tone. There's also a lot of dark humor that comes along with shitty news like this, a la all the "Dewey" jokes.

Lawidiot, I'm following the news with great interest for the same reasons as you. I'm sure I also have a number of classmates going to Dewey this summer but don't know who they are.


There wasn't even any tone there. It was a straight forward statement ("Dewey loses two more partners in London") followed by the relevant news link. This thread is sorta like a Dewey tracker at the moment.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Agent » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:12 pm

Obviously these are different situations, but here's a link that might interest some people here: The Howrey Nosedive: A Timeline.

I was interested to see that Bunsow bailed on Howrey in 2007 and now seems to be sticking with Dewey (unless I've missed some recent news). This article sheds some light on his decision.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:21 pm

rad lulz wrote:
jawsthegreat wrote:At what point does Dewey, as a firm, cease to be viable?

Well 16% of the partners have left, but it's tough to pin down until they announce the dissolution. A lot of this is happening behind closed doors it seems and people are keeping mum.


Well, we can probably figure this out with a fair degree of certainty, as I said in an earlier post. Find all the NLJ250 firms that involuntarily lost 10%+ of their partners in one year and then see which ones survived. I found one, Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis. Someone else claimed O'Melveny was another, but I don't know their story. In the other column are a huge number of firms like Howrey.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:52 am

Agent wrote:Obviously these are different situations, but here's a link that might interest some people here: The Howrey Nosedive: A Timeline.

I was interested to see that Bunsow bailed on Howrey in 2007 and now seems to be sticking with Dewey (unless I've missed some recent news). This article sheds some light on his decision.


Wow. Bunsow drank the Dewey Kool-Aid. It's almost comical.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:12 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
jawsthegreat wrote:At what point does Dewey, as a firm, cease to be viable?

Well 16% of the partners have left, but it's tough to pin down until they announce the dissolution. A lot of this is happening behind closed doors it seems and people are keeping mum.


Well, we can probably figure this out with a fair degree of certainty, as I said in an earlier post. Find all the NLJ250 firms that involuntarily lost 10%+ of their partners in one year and then see which ones survived. I found one, Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis. Someone else claimed O'Melveny was another, but I don't know their story. In the other column are a huge number of firms like Howrey.


OMM lost 22 partners not nearly as many as Dewey. Dewey is also STILL dealing with deferred associates which is contrasted by OMM moving up the start dates for its incoming associates. So I would say the Dewey situation is a lot worse.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
jawsthegreat wrote:At what point does Dewey, as a firm, cease to be viable?

Well 16% of the partners have left, but it's tough to pin down until they announce the dissolution. A lot of this is happening behind closed doors it seems and people are keeping mum.


Well, we can probably figure this out with a fair degree of certainty, as I said in an earlier post. Find all the NLJ250 firms that involuntarily lost 10%+ of their partners in one year and then see which ones survived. I found one, Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis. Someone else claimed O'Melveny was another, but I don't know their story. In the other column are a huge number of firms like Howrey.


OMM lost 22 partners not nearly as many as Dewey. Dewey is also STILL dealing with deferred associates which is contrasted by OMM moving up the start dates for its incoming associates. So I would say the Dewey situation is a lot worse.



Yes, but there's a definite sense that OMM isn't even close to what it once was. It's corporate capabilities were decimated with the NY partner departures, and it's antitrust capabilities, though still strong, was decimated by their DC departures. Not to mention that they've suffered other serious blows in the years before, including the loss of its copyright and trademark group in NY.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby run26.2 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:27 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:FP, it seems like you're deriving some pleasure from this Dewey debacle (this is not a criticism). Any particular reason or just garden variety schadenfreude/car-crash syndrome?


Am deriving absolutely zero pleasure from this. Several of my close friends work at the firm and this whole matter has made me extremely concerned for their wellbeing.

I am, however, shaking my head at the lack of discipline and shitty leadership the Dewey partnership has shown over the years. Law students considering firms need to look at the symptoms of this debacle and learn to avoid firms that exhibit similar symptoms.

I agree that students "should" try to learn what they can from this, but law firm leadership is enough of a blackbox that I question whether they can. What symptoms were showing when 2Ls went through OCI? Or even before what is happening now hit the news?

I ask from the perspective of a law student that almost accepted an offer from Howrey. The main reason I didn't was because I called one of the associates with whom I had lunch on the callback. He told me that several of the partners he worked for had left and that his own work was drying up. This sent a very strong signal to me. But had I not called, or had I called the other associate, I would have not gotten the same perspective. Note that at the time, several people whose opinion I value encouraged me to accept Howrey's offer. A few of them pointed out that the training program offset the lower salary. Let's just say that the conversation I had with the Howrey associate was providential; I accepted at another firm.

But without this type of conversation, how would a law student be able to evaluate the leadership or long-term viability of a firm?

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby jawsthegreat » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:41 am

What other firms does TLS think could pull a Dewey?

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:48 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:At what point does Dewey, as a firm, cease to be viable?



Well, we can probably figure this out with a fair degree of certainty, as I said in an earlier post. Find all the NLJ250 firms that involuntarily lost 10%+ of their partners in one year and then see which ones survived. I found one, Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis. Someone else claimed O'Melveny was another, but I don't know their story. In the other column are a huge number of firms like Howrey.


OMM lost 22 partners not nearly as many as Dewey. Dewey is also STILL dealing with deferred associates which is contrasted by OMM moving up the start dates for its incoming associates. So I would say the Dewey situation is a lot worse.



Yes, but there's a definite sense that OMM isn't even close to what it once was. It's corporate capabilities were decimated with the NY partner departures, and it's antitrust capabilities, though still strong, was decimated by their DC departures. Not to mention that they've suffered other serious blows in the years before, including the loss of its copyright and trademark group in NY.


I don't want to rehash the OMM debate from other threads but I just want to note that I disagree except as to the corporate capabilities point. I just brought up OMM to point out the differences between that situation and the Dewey situation because someone asked about it and that's what this thread is about. Even if you think OMM's capabilities aren't what they used to be due to departures that still doesn't mean they are on the verge of collapse like Dewey which is what we are talking about here. So take away is this, Dewey situation is worse than the OMM situation so the fact that OMM isn't going under should not make you feel better about Dewey.

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Re: How to handle Dewey (or similar firms)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:40 pm

jawsthegreat wrote:What other firms does TLS think could pull a Dewey?


Making it clear that I only have the vaguest anecdotal support for poor firm leadership at these firms, my shortlist would be:

Reed Smith
Nixon Peabody
SNR Denton
Dorsey & Whitney
Pepper Hamilton
Carlton Fields
Fish & Richardson
Faegre Baker Daniels
Holland & Knight
Last edited by LawIdiot86 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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