How to handle Dewey (or similar firms) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

QFP.

You might be there yourself in the not too distant future.

[jc1988]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

go fuck yourself, douchebag.

[dooood]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

This is not what this thread is about. One would think that any law student ITE - and especially someone like you who came so close to working there - would be capable of a little empathy. Shit is weak, dude.

[Morgan12Oak]

Don't worry. Dewey associates may not have summer jobs, but the vast majority of them won't ever have to hang their Fordham law degrees up or have to continue to deal with Asperger's syndrome and the related karma that goes one's way for being an insufferable prick. Though I picture karma has already struck - envisoning a fat Jerry Mcguire watching a Knicks game. But good luck in sports law bro. If you're lucky maybe one day you can give an athlete a blow job.

[mness]

Don't worry. Dewey associates may not have summer jobs, but the vast majority of them won't ever have to hang their Fordham law degrees up or have to continue to deal with Asperger's syndrome and the related karma that goes one's way for being an insufferable prick. Though I picture karma has already struck - envisoning a fat Jerry Mcguire watching a Knicks game. But good luck in sports law bro. If you're lucky maybe one day you can give an athlete a blow job.

Thank you for giving me a laugh in this otherwise depressing thread

[sunynp]

Have you guys heard of Jeffrey Kessler? He is legitimate in sports law.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Now Dewey is the poster child for the problems of biglaw now and in the future:
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/04/25/ ... trys-woes/

This is an interview with a guy who is self-publishing a book on Amazon about the legal industry. Dewey’s woes hardly surprise Michael H. Trotter, a partner at Taylor English Duma in Atlanta who, in addition to a five-decade career as a corporate lawyer, has written two books about the economics and management of law firms.

Q.
The publication of “Declining Prospects” comes at a moment when Dewey faces the risk of collapse. The turmoil at the firm appears to be a manifestation of a lot of the issues that you discuss in your book.

A.
I don’t think Dewey’s problems are just a matter of a management mistake here or there but instead reflect a change in the fundamental competitive environment in the legal services industry. Many of the larger firms that serve major business clients are caught up in these changes. We’ve already seen several go under, and I think we’ll see quite a few more over the next few years.

Q.
What has changed?

A.
There are now far more capable lawyers and law firms than there is work for them to do. The financial costs of legal services have gotten so high that most clients are determined to reduce them. Many legal services have become commodities that can be supplied by a large number of firms with sufficient quality to meet the needs of most clients in most situations, and corporate general counsel now know that they can get what they need at a lower cost if they force the major firms to compete for the work.

Q.
One reason for Dewey’s trouble is that it poached lawyers from rival firms by offering them multiyear, multimillion-dollar guaranteed contracts.

A.
That’s a very risky strategy. For one thing, people don’t always produce what they promise; often the clients that they currently have move with them, so to give anyone a guaranteed contract based on their past success is basically a mistake. Imagine the environment where profits are dropping and there are some partners getting the full amount they were guaranteed and you’re getting half of what you expected. It generates a lot of hard feelings.

This seems like a pretty self-serving take on Dewey. Their financial issues don't seem to have much to do with wider trends in Biglaw. I don't think it was client reticence over high hourly rates that sank them.

[sunynp]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting. But Dewey isn't the only firm with bad decision making and bad bookkeeping.

At least the failed Dewey SAs, if the firm ends the program, will have massive goodwill in the community. They will be at the top of the line. I hope they all find paying work for the summer. I really thought the firm could buy enough time and money to keep the summer going - but who knows now.

[Anonymous User]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone how smart you were.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting.

Don't forget the SAs here will have a ton of good will stored up for them at other firms/ They will get a job over you if you get no offered and have to deal with 3L OCI. Now I"m sorry I backed your sports law comment.

I don't think he was saying he chose Dewey because it wasn't financially stable, just that the firm he ended up at was financially stable.

[sunynp]

Now Dewey is the poster child for the problems of biglaw now and in the future:
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/04/25/ ... trys-woes/

This is an interview with a guy who is self-publishing a book on Amazon about the legal industry. Dewey’s woes hardly surprise Michael H. Trotter, a partner at Taylor English Duma in Atlanta who, in addition to a five-decade career as a corporate lawyer, has written two books about the economics and management of law firms.

Q.
The publication of “Declining Prospects” comes at a moment when Dewey faces the risk of collapse. The turmoil at the firm appears to be a manifestation of a lot of the issues that you discuss in your book.

A.
I don’t think Dewey’s problems are just a matter of a management mistake here or there but instead reflect a change in the fundamental competitive environment in the legal services industry. Many of the larger firms that serve major business clients are caught up in these changes. We’ve already seen several go under, and I think we’ll see quite a few more over the next few years.

Q.
What has changed?

A.
There are now far more capable lawyers and law firms than there is work for them to do. The financial costs of legal services have gotten so high that most clients are determined to reduce them. Many legal services have become commodities that can be supplied by a large number of firms with sufficient quality to meet the needs of most clients in most situations, and corporate general counsel now know that they can get what they need at a lower cost if they force the major firms to compete for the work.

Q.
One reason for Dewey’s trouble is that it poached lawyers from rival firms by offering them multiyear, multimillion-dollar guaranteed contracts.

A.
That’s a very risky strategy. For one thing, people don’t always produce what they promise; often the clients that they currently have move with them, so to give anyone a guaranteed contract based on their past success is basically a mistake. Imagine the environment where profits are dropping and there are some partners getting the full amount they were guaranteed and you’re getting half of what you expected. It generates a lot of hard feelings.

This seems like a pretty self-serving take on Dewey. Their financial issues don't seem to have much to do with wider trends in Biglaw. I don't think it was client reticence over high hourly rates that sank them.

I think the guy just wants to sell books. But Dewey's problems might relate to baulking clients afther the recession clients don't want to pay - but Dewey needs more income to meet expenses, only to be rebuffed by clients who cut fees. The problem is why Dewey ended up so indebted in the first place - what is it $75 million in revolving credit and $135 million in bonds?

[Anonymous User]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting. But Dewey isn't the only firm with bad decision making and bad bookkeeping.

At least the failed Dewey SAs, if the firm ends the program, will have massive goodwill in the community. They will be at the top of the line. I hope they all find paying work for the summer. I really thought the firm could buy enough time and money to keep the summer going - but who knows now.

The only signal I had that something was questionable at Dewey was that their median GPA at my T14 was the 16th lowest out of 175 reported firms and well below the curve's median. Struck me as odd that such a prestigious international firm would have to work so hard to recruit at a T14.

[09042014]

The only signal I had that something was questionable at Dewey was that their median GPA at my T14 was the 16th lowest out of 175 reported firms and well below the curve's median. Struck me as odd that such a prestigious international firm would have to work so hard to recruit at a T14.

How many callbacks did they actually give? If they only call back 5 people the numbers get less reliable.

But I don't think anyone would call Dewey Prestigious. It's basically the same as all the other V50.

[$$$$$$]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

You are an absolute dumb ass. Maybe this is why firms are going under, they hire morons and then expect businesses to pay them top dollar for their services. Also, you can't call someone a bro when you say "memories of yore," tool.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks to all the people calling that guy out on his post. It's nice to see.

[keg411]

You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thread telling everyone.

I agree. I doubt some random 2L knows all about law firm finances, and honestly, I wouldn't even know how to go about getting that type of information. I'm especially wondering what this supposed "one of the most financially stable" firms even is.

[Anonymous User]

The only signal I had that something was questionable at Dewey was that their median GPA at my T14 was the 16th lowest out of 175 reported firms and well below the curve's median. Struck me as odd that such a prestigious international firm would have to work so hard to recruit at a T14.

How many callbacks did they actually give? If they only call back 5 people the numbers get less reliable.

But I don't think anyone would call Dewey Prestigious. It's basically the same as all the other V50.

Right, it was out of five people to get an offer. But, the highest of those five was around the 65th percentile and the median was around the 40th percentile. That means the other two were below the 40th percentile. I wouldn't associate those general stats with a V50 firm.

[spets]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

I know a friend who took a leave of absence from Fordham after the first semester of 1L year. Can't say I'm too surprised with tools like you abound. Stay classy bro.

[Old Gregg]

Pretty dick move bro. For the record, I thought Dewey was on the rise, and I'm well known around here for being "in the know" about law firms and I have a pretty strong sense of law firm financials. They were taking in quite a few prized laterals not too long ago.

I definitely have a fair share of people there that I dislike, but I don't wish bad fortune upon them. Not liking someone is one thing. Wishing for their poor livelihood is another. The former can be attributed to personality. The latter can be attributed to insecurity and just plain vindictiveness. DrGuano, the latter is what you're suffering from.

[rad lulz]

I'm well known around here for being "in the know" about law firms

Though you did say PBWT was a corporate firm in this thread or another one recently

They were taking in quite a few prized laterals not too long ago.

I guess that was part of the problem.

[Old Gregg]

I'm well known around here for being "in the know" about law firms

Though you did say PBWT was a corporate firm in this thread or another one recently

They were taking in quite a few prized laterals not too long ago.

I guess that was part of the problem.

It is a corporate firm in the sense that it represents corporate clients, not in the sense that they have a transactional practice. I tend to use the term for both types of firms. I would never consciously say that PBWT has a transactional practice, however.


Taking in prized laterals is not a huge deal in itself. You're right, it's part of the problem, but there are many things wrong with Dewey that are sort of colluding to cause its downfall.

[sunynp]

I'm well known around here for being "in the know" about law firms

Though you did say PBWT was a corporate firm in this thread or another one recently

They were taking in quite a few prized laterals not too long ago.

I guess that was part of the problem.

It is a corporate firm in the sense that it represents corporate clients, not in the sense that they have a transactional practice. I tend to use the term for both types of firms. I would never consciously say that PBWT has a transactional practice, however.


Taking in prized laterals is not a huge deal in itself. You're right, it's part of the problem, but there are many things wrong with Dewey that are sort of colluding to cause its downfall.

I know a few people at PBWT that do transactional IP work in addition to the massive litigation they do.

I keep trying to put together exactly what caused Dewey's downfall, I think it started before the merger when they had that massive unfunded pension liability - something the Lebouef partners said they only found out about later (which (?) due diligence) I think they never recovered from the cost of the merger and taking on that debt. And then they did that bond financing, which was maybe supposed to be used for the liability but was used for very expensive expansion. And then they hired these additional partners, possibly because M&A was struggling, so they added more people? I am not sure of the order of hiring the partners from Weil - Bienenstock and Kessler -and other firms.

I thought they were on the way up and probably would have been fine if they didn't have that huge debt load to service. The payment terms on the debt meant that the guaranteed partners got paid, then the bondholders and then the junior/non-guaranteed partners. And that would have been great if they had been able to meet projections. Once the revenues were down, the guaranteed partners probably should have renegotiated to take less, and it seems some of them did, but the huge disparity of a few people taking a huge percent of the firms profit was too much for good lawyers to continue to put up with.

But again, the underlying problem seems to be the bond debt. The bank financing they could have probably handled.

Does this seem correct to you guys?

[imchuckbass58]

But again, the underlying problem seems to be the bond debt. The bank financing they could have probably handled.

Does this seem correct to you guys?

I think you're right that the underlying problem was the bond debt, but you have to ask why they had bond debt when a substantial number of firms don't have any debt (bank or bond). A law firm, unlike a factory, isn't asset intensive and thus you don't really need much financing.

The answer, as has been implied elsewhere, is they were a middle-of-the-pack (by NY standards) firm that wanted to build a top-flight practice. There are two ways to do that - grow it, or buy it. If you buy it, you need money to bring in partners on guarantees (profits alone won't do it), and you need to borrow. That's fine if they bring in what they're supposed to bring in, but the moment the economy tanks, or some partners underperform, it's not just a matter of having lower profits, it's a matter of having trouble meeting your debt service.

It's like any other business - taking on leverage amplifies profits if things go well, but also amplifies losses if things don;t.

[sunynp]

I thought the bond debt had to do with the unfunded pension liability that Dewey brought with it to the merger. I can't fathom taking on bond debt to hire partners. Though the money may have ultimately been used for that purpose instead of the bond debt. It is difficult to tell- maybe banks wouldn't lend to them at a decent rate during the credit crunch but their insurance company clients wanted to help them.

[DrGuano]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting. But Dewey isn't the only firm with bad decision making and bad bookkeeping.

At least the failed Dewey SAs, if the firm ends the program, will have massive goodwill in the community. They will be at the top of the line. I hope they all find paying work for the summer. I really thought the firm could buy enough time and money to keep the summer going - but who knows now.

My perception of the firm's financial health was based on entirely public information, and supplemented with conversations I had with practicing big law attorneys at other firms. The fact they laid off a ton of attorneys/staff in the recession, the fact they merged at the worst possible time completely effing any resulting synergies, and the fact they had a limited SA class again where most firms were expanding. Dewey isn't the only firmed I turned down because of that, but one of three.

I don't think it was much of a secret they've had a tough 3-4 years...do your homework folks. I don't wish ill upon anyone, but there was plenty of diligence to be done, and an informed decision could have been reached.

[LawIdiot86]

This is really nutty stuff. As someone who was very close to many families affected by the financial crisis, and now a 2L at Fordham, this is like watching what happened in Bear Stearns and Lehman, but in slow motion. Obviously, the mass departures are different, but the whole "the sky is falling" thing brings back memories of yore.

I received an offer from Dewey, but wasn't really taking it too seriously. Want sports law, but firm health was more important to me. Ended up at one of the most financially stable firms, but during the decision a kid who picked Dewey was trying to sell the firm to me. His quote verbatim was "C'mon, bro, it's a great firm."

Sorry bro. Looks like you'll summer associating with the unemployment office.

You are a jerk. A true jerk. You can't claim you knew the firm wasn't financially stable, even the partners didn't really know how bad it was. I'm sure you knew nothing about the bond issue or other problems or you would have been in this thead telling everyone.

And don't think this problem is only limited to Dewey. That is what people said about Howrey too. These firms might all fail in different ways but it is all related to having a not sustainable business model and incredibly poor management decisions. Who would add guaranteed partners in 2011? Hiring was just barely starting. But Dewey isn't the only firm with bad decision making and bad bookkeeping.

At least the failed Dewey SAs, if the firm ends the program, will have massive goodwill in the community. They will be at the top of the line. I hope they all find paying work for the summer. I really thought the firm could buy enough time and money to keep the summer going - but who knows now.

My perception of the firm's financial health was based on entirely public information, and supplemented with conversations I had with practicing big law attorneys at other firms. The fact they laid off a ton of attorneys/staff in the recession, the fact they merged at the worst possible time completely effing any resulting synergies, and the fact they had a limited SA class again where most firms were expanding. Dewey isn't the only firmed I turned down because of that, but one of three.

I don't think it was much of a secret they've had a tough 3-4 years...do your homework folks. I don't wish ill upon anyone, but there was plenty of diligence to be done, and an informed decision could have been reached.

Seeing as you apparently had options, did you ever ask for financial information after you had been offered? I had a friend who asked for, and was given, the firm's debt/loan structure breakdown when they were evaluating their offers.