Why don't more people use LRAP???

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azntwice
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Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby azntwice » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:12 pm

Reading this forum, I'm a bit confused about why more people don't take advantage of their schools' loan repayment assistance programs. I understand some law schools may not have them, but for those who do, why don't 3L students who don't have a permanent job yet try to get a public interest job and allow the school to pay off part or whole of your student loans? As I understand it, the greatest concern about graduating unemployed is the student debt burden, not the lack of a biglaw job. It seems like LRAPs would be a good way to deal with the problem.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:14 pm

Don't you typically have to work in public interest for like 10 years? Maybe thats why, because once in for 10 years, you're in for life?

freestallion
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby freestallion » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:17 pm

0L here, so this is just what I've heard, but many public interest jobs are harder to get than firm jobs. You can't just waltz in there. You have to show passion and commitment to public interest, and often have specialized experience (languages, internships, clinics, etc) in the area you want to work in. Non-profits just don't have the money to throw around on new staff, (and there's federal government hiring freezes now) so it's not easy to get LRAP-qualifying jobs in the first place.

azntwice
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby azntwice » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:17 pm

i think they are forgiven in increments -- you would have 100% of your loans forgiven after 10 yrs (or less depending on the school, CLS is 5 yrs), but you would still have significant debt burden reduction even if you only worked for 4-5 years.

i guess another problem is that public interest jobs are scarcer these days too -- but once you've missed the biglaw boat, it would seem like that would be a good place to start looking... additionally most people work in public interest their 1L summers, so they would presumably already have ties to at least that one organization, wouldn't they?

LawIdiot86
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:18 pm

You assume that PI jobs paying 25K a year are easy to get. They aren't. They are ultra-competitive and require as much dedication as biglaw.

Second, LRAP implies you are ready to lock yourself into a job for 10 years with the top income being 50 or 70k. That's a long committment at a low salary.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:29 pm

LRAP is also evil from an economic perspective in that it creates an ultra-sticky labor market where people stay in jobs they are not dedicated to or avoid taking opportunities elsewhere because they need to keep the LRAP. It was good for the first class, but now they're going to stay there and prevent other people from getting in through the normal attrition/job movement process.

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Samara
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby Samara » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:33 pm

azntwice wrote:i think they are forgiven in increments -- you would have 100% of your loans forgiven after 10 yrs (or less depending on the school, CLS is 5 yrs), but you would still have significant debt burden reduction even if you only worked for 4-5 years.

i guess another problem is that public interest jobs are scarcer these days too -- but once you've missed the biglaw boat, it would seem like that would be a good place to start looking... additionally most people work in public interest their 1L summers, so they would presumably already have ties to at least that one organization, wouldn't they?

LRAP doesn't work that way. In most instance, the LRAP payments are enough to cover interest payments, but make little headway on the principle. You really only get the benefit if you stick with it the whole ten years. Ten years is a long time if you aren't committed to PI.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:36 pm

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Last edited by TIKITEMBO on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

t14fanboy
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby t14fanboy » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:45 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:Honestly OP, I think most people just don't get how it works (as I'm sure you've gathered)/don't trust it yet. Yes, it's hard to find a PI job, but I think the people who treat it as impossible as they do on here haven't worked in non-profit/government work before. I'm not saying it's a cake walk, it's not. But if it's what you're dedicated to, then go for it. That's my plan. To me, there's honestly no worry in doing PI for 10 years, because that's the only think I would ever consider and it's such a large area of law, I'm not worried about being able to grow in my career.


Rofl. No. Most people don't want PI.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:46 pm

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leobowski
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby leobowski » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:14 pm

freestallion wrote:0L here, so bla bla bla



--ImageRemoved--

azntwice
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby azntwice » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:17 pm

TIKITEMBO wrote:
t14fanboy wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:Honestly OP, I think most people just don't get how it works (as I'm sure you've gathered)/don't trust it yet. Yes, it's hard to find a PI job, but I think the people who treat it as impossible as they do on here haven't worked in non-profit/government work before. I'm not saying it's a cake walk, it's not. But if it's what you're dedicated to, then go for it. That's my plan. To me, there's honestly no worry in doing PI for 10 years, because that's the only think I would ever consider and it's such a large area of law, I'm not worried about being able to grow in my career.


Rofl. No. Most people don't want PI.


Wasn't implying that. Most people don't. Especially on TLS. For those who do though, LRAP/IBR/PSLF can be pretty freaking great.


I disagree that most people don't want PI. From what I read here, it's doom and gloom between rock and a hard place: those who can't get biglaw want it, and those who've got it hate it and think it's a dead end. Sure, many may actually want biglaw, but it seems like another miserable career for most who end up getting it. So uh... why not just get out early on and do something you actually care about?...

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mattviphky
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby mattviphky » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:22 pm

10 years? UIUC is 6, and Notre Dame is 3. But yeah, they're not some sort of fall back jobs.

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TIKITEMBO
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby TIKITEMBO » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:49 pm

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seatown12
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby seatown12 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:58 pm

It's a real misconception that jobs other than Biglaw are easy to get. It was always the case that the vast majority of law students would not get a Biglaw job. Now it's the case that the vast majority of law students cannot get ANY job. 3Ls without jobs are just trying to be employed, trust me nobody is being picky any more.

mrloblaw
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:03 pm

azntwice wrote:
I disagree that most people don't want PI. From what I read here, it's doom and gloom between rock and a hard place: those who can't get biglaw want it, and those who've got it hate it and think it's a dead end. Sure, many may actually want biglaw, but it seems like another miserable career for most who end up getting it. So uh... why not just get out early on and do something you actually care about?...



Because the only way you end up in lawl school in the 21st century is if you've made too many shitty life decisions (poor choice of undergrad major, lack of people skills and/or raw talent to engage in a myriad of other careers, etc.) to do anything that anyone with a soul would actually care about.

LRAP is a great call if you actually want to do PI, because doing so would otherwise be impossible with typical student loans. However, PI is even more heavily competitive than biglawl, likely involves extending a career search well beyond OCI, and still, even with student loan forgiveness factored in, puts you at about half the salary biglawl pays, with much less career mobility. It's nice, but not enough to make PI a viable alternative for someone who wouldn't otherwise be considering it.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:25 pm

mattviphky wrote:10 years? UIUC is 6, and Notre Dame is 3. But yeah, they're not some sort of fall back jobs.


ND looks like 10 years with 45k income cap: --LinkRemoved--. That's not terrible if you want PI, but if you are just doing it to pay off your loans, that would suck compared to middle management at a faceless corporation.

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IAFG
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:28 pm

From a T14 with top half grades, biglaw is the easiest job to get. Employers literally come to you, feed you, sell you on the firm, fly you to them on their dime, then make you offers for a summer of getting wined and dined on a first year salary.

I think a lot of people who thought they were going to take advantage of LRAP realize being poor indefinitely sucks.

r6_philly
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:31 pm

mrloblaw wrote:Because the only way you end up in lawl school in the 21st century is if you've made too many shitty life decisions (poor choice of undergrad major, lack of people skills and/or raw talent to engage in a myriad of other careers, etc.) to do anything that anyone with a soul would actually care about.


A very majority portion of people actually want to be lawyers. Of all kinds.

09042014
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:36 pm

TCR is to do big law for as many years as you can handle while only working like 55 hrs per week. That's probably 2, maybe as long as 4-5. During that time, save up, pay as little of your debt as you can (30 year repayment plan), then do PI with enough money to buy a condo (or at least most of one).


It seems like big law exits pretty well to PI.

mrloblaw
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:39 pm

r6_philly wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:Because the only way you end up in lawl school in the 21st century is if you've made too many shitty life decisions (poor choice of undergrad major, lack of people skills and/or raw talent to engage in a myriad of other careers, etc.) to do anything that anyone with a soul would actually care about.


A very majority portion of people actually want to be lawyers. Of all kinds.


Good thing the DSM no longer includes masochism as a mental disorder, eh?

Also, Desert Fox is spot on. Even if you want to do PI, it makes more sense to do biglawl as long as possible.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby DaftAndDirect » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Desert Fox wrote:TCR is to do big law for as many years as you can handle while only working like 55 hrs per week. That's probably 2, maybe as long as 4-5. During that time, save up, pay as little of your debt as you can (30 year repayment plan), then do PI with enough money to buy a condo (or at least most of one).


It seems like big law exits pretty well to PI.


Interested in hearing more about this approach. I was under the impression people would want to pay down loans as quickly as possible to avoid getting really gouged on the compounding interest.

09042014
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:45 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TCR is to do big law for as many years as you can handle while only working like 55 hrs per week. That's probably 2, maybe as long as 4-5. During that time, save up, pay as little of your debt as you can (30 year repayment plan), then do PI with enough money to buy a condo (or at least most of one).


It seems like big law exits pretty well to PI.


Interested in hearing more about this approach. I was under the impression people would want to pay down loans as quickly as possible to avoid getting really gouged on the compounding interest.


Depends how much debt you have. If you have 230K, then you'll never pay it back on PI and shouldn't try. Let IBR take that shit. If it's like 60K, pay that shit back.

r6_philly
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:46 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TCR is to do big law for as many years as you can handle while only working like 55 hrs per week. That's probably 2, maybe as long as 4-5. During that time, save up, pay as little of your debt as you can (30 year repayment plan), then do PI with enough money to buy a condo (or at least most of one).


It seems like big law exits pretty well to PI.


Interested in hearing more about this approach. I was under the impression people would want to pay down loans as quickly as possible to avoid getting really gouged on the compounding interest.


Compounding interest at 6-8% without accounting for inflation is a very good deal. You can't borrow money cheaper than student loans, except for mortgages in the last few years. I doubt everyone on here wants to save up all the cash then buy a house outright. Taking on a 500k mortgage is essentially compounding interest for 30 years, only structured up front (so are car loans generally around 8-10%). Remember mortgage rates used to be like 18%. Student loans are, and will be soon, really good bargains. (once the Fed jack rates up again after economy recovers)

09042014
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Re: Why don't more people use LRAP???

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:49 pm

r6_philly wrote:
DaftAndDirect wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TCR is to do big law for as many years as you can handle while only working like 55 hrs per week. That's probably 2, maybe as long as 4-5. During that time, save up, pay as little of your debt as you can (30 year repayment plan), then do PI with enough money to buy a condo (or at least most of one).


It seems like big law exits pretty well to PI.


Interested in hearing more about this approach. I was under the impression people would want to pay down loans as quickly as possible to avoid getting really gouged on the compounding interest.


Compounding interest at 6-8% without accounting for inflation is a very good deal. You can't borrow money cheaper than student loans, except for mortgages in the last few years. I doubt everyone on here wants to save up all the cash then buy a house outright. Taking on a 500k mortgage is essentially compounding interest for 30 years, only structured up front (so are car loans generally around 8-10%). Remember mortgage rates used to be like 18%. Student loans are, and will be soon, really good bargains. (once the Fed jack rates up again after economy recovers)


During the late 70's maybe.




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